Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

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PhoenixBfW
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by PhoenixBfW » December 1st, 2010, 10:20 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9, pretty difficult to avoid losses and it forced me to start again the campaign to make more veterans (I've played pretty bad the first time).
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Decent.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Conquering the city without being overwhelmed by the skeletons. Won by killing the orc leader with fresh mixed human/elves cavalry in the very first 2-3 turns when still was day, summoning the thieves and killing the remaining orcs with heavy losses (but they were fresh recruits) then moving my leader on the city and start building the real army (lots of mages, veteran cavalry and so on). Luckily I've got a human knight lvl 2 from the beginning. Got very early to the necromancer this way. The hard thing for my was to understand that heavy losses cannot be avoided, so I had to sacrifice recruits saving the veterans. Still, too much hard, I've loaded & saved a lot. Thieves aren't that bad in defence anyway, they dodge pretty well in castle & villages. Tried nearly 10 times this mission.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. But can be very frustrating without a lot of patience.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Perhaps a bit easier, but not too much or it won't force you to adapt to this particular situation. I'm not sure it's possible though.

Kliktu
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Kliktu » January 29th, 2011, 9:32 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging - 1.8.5
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 because it was so hard for me to use the conventional strategies to win. It pretty much felt that I was fighting a losing battle with luck no matter how hard I tried. But once I found out what I should do the difficulty plunged to about a 2.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear on what to do and a mystery on how to do it :p
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Salright.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Playing for 2 1/2 weeks, with an average of 5 hours per day, and restarting the scenario 4 times each day trying to build up the right combination of units to have a higher chance of winning. Too bad I ended up not needing to do that at all.
I had beaten it easily enough with continuously saving and reloading to pull myself through it all, but that sucked all the fun out of the game so I tried to do it legitimately. I found out how to win easy: just beat every scenario before it as fast as possible and with as much gold left as I can get, start this scenario with 260 gold because of that, and just plain use all my gold to recruit Horsemen, plus two knights I had, and have them rush full speed into the city, with my Elvish Captain, and massacre the Orcs. For the thieves I chose for them to spring out once I had captured a city. They cemented my victory and I proceeded towards the undead base and defeated it soundly.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. It almost ruined Wesnoth for me completely and let me down a bit when I figured out an easy answer to this problem. At least I can get more sleep at night now :D
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it so that it doesn't have to be done so damn fast. It shouldn't have had such an easy solution as just recruiting a ton of fresh horsemen and kill them all seemingly automatically.

monochromatic
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by monochromatic » January 29th, 2011, 3:08 pm

I suggest you try this again and attempt an 'honest' win, baccuse one day you'll regret giving into the temptation of save-loading. It destroys most of the fun and makes multiplayer seem unfair, though it is. Also, try playing NR with that strategy. Most scenarios there would take save-loaders maybe several days to complete because there are so many units.

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by GagarinGambit » February 4th, 2011, 5:26 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6, challenging. As I see that a number of people find it very difficult, I'm attaching a replay, in which you can see my strategy. It's far from perfect play (especially near the end, when I got overconfident), and it depends on the scenario I chose earlier, but it's still a winning strategy.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Satisfactory

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1. Getting control of the island before the undead arrive (I was 1 turn late, which led to unwanted casualties) 2. When I was certain I was marching north to victory, the undead were unexpectedly reinforced with troops, and it proved to be a tough fight for which I was unprepared (but still prevailed, although I lost a few good units).

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6, good

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Perhaps give a few more hints in the dialogue about what's going to happen (eg thieves pointing out they can try taking down the leader, or that the necromancer is more resourceful than it appears). This should make a little it easier for some people, without spoiling the fun.
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HttT-The_Siege_of_Elensefar_replay.gz
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Pyroraptor
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Pyroraptor » February 5th, 2011, 3:57 am

[1] Easy, 1.8, 1.4

[2]3-The first time, I can't remember very well. The second run through though, I breezed through it, recalling my 10 or so level two units, and Blitzing the orcs. Taking the castle cost me my druid, and almost killed Konrad, but Moremirmu made up for her.

[3]Brilliant- obliterate the bad guys and save the city!! :eng: Now, what don't you understand?

[4]I don't pay too much attention to dialogue.

[5]The worst that I had was dealing with the undead on the bridge, but that was actually fun too, because they only defended one bridge.

[6]9- the siege concept is great, and very well executed, but I'd like to see a concentric castle siege, and I'll probably incorporate it into my campaign.

[7]I don' know, maybe something in the moat? or the orcs using wolf riders more?

shadowblack
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by shadowblack » February 23rd, 2011, 12:17 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.4, Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
around 4-5, but would have been more if I had been a bit slower in taking out the orcs (or less if I had not cared about losing units)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
1) Getting rid of the orcs before the main force of skeletons arrived. My desire to get rid of the orcs as quickly as possible resulted in Konrad nearly getting killed due to bad placement (I actually had to load a few times for him to survive)
2) Getting rid of the Skeletons without any significant losses – this proved easier than I expected
3) Getting into the cave and reaching the enemy leader – this was the most difficult part. There were just two narrow, easily-blocked, entrances, and nearly all my units have horrible defenses inside the cave. Add to that the bonus units and extra gold the enemy gets when my units get close, and I was stalled for several turns until I finally managed to deal with all the skellies

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 – my favorite scenario in the campaign so far

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It’s fine as it is. Maybe give a hint about the extra resources of the undead. The rest is fine as it is

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Putting Konrad in a position where he had below 50% defense and could get attacked by 4 enemies, including the level 3 orc leader (ouch!)

Thoughts:
As I mentioned above this is my favorite of the first 6 scenarios. I really enjoyed it.

P.S.: There are errors in the replay due to a bug in Wesnoth: The replay ignores the [time_area] tag, so the cave has the same TOD schedule as the rest of the map instead of the correct one.
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Argentex
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Argentex » March 10th, 2011, 12:31 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 decently tough

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
good, but the undead boss was pretty cheesy as usual

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I almost used up all of my turns on this scenario. I had lots of healers so I managed to get through it pretty well, although I also ran into more resistance than expected at the end with the undead. Mostly overall patience got me through it with fewer casualties, but I can see the problems people might have with it.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 very satisfying to fight through both enemies.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Not much, I enjoyed the addition of the thieves. The only reason I got even a little bit bored was because of the length of the game.

jiaming10
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by jiaming10 » March 12th, 2011, 4:56 am

Has anyone beat this stage on Hard with only shaman line(druids,sorceress are included) yet?

I felt is hard to beat this stage with only shamans, because the shamans will die quickly especially at night.

Hiding those shamans inside forest is a good idea, but orcs will eventually overwhelm me because they have many villages inside the city. But if fight all the way, the shamans will suffer 60% of getting hit.

Is there any better way to accomplish this?

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by GagarinGambit » March 12th, 2011, 3:28 pm

jiaming10 wrote:Has anyone beat this stage on Hard with only shaman line(druids,sorceress are included) yet?

I felt is hard to beat this stage with only shamans, because the shamans will die quickly especially at night.

Hiding those shamans inside forest is a good idea, but orcs will eventually overwhelm me because they have many villages inside the city. But if fight all the way, the shamans will suffer 60% of getting hit.

Is there any better way to accomplish this?
This should be nearly impossible. If that's a self imposed rule and you do make it, I'd love to see the replay. Otherwise, I suggest using horsemen guarding your side of the coast + 1-2 druids for healing. Until you capture the city, the usefulness of units other than horsemen, footpads and healers is limited.
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monochromatic
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by monochromatic » March 12th, 2011, 4:40 pm

GagarinGambit wrote:
jiaming10 wrote:Has anyone beat this stage on Hard with only shaman line(druids,sorceress are included) yet?

I felt is hard to beat this stage with only shamans, because the shamans will die quickly especially at night.

Hiding those shamans inside forest is a good idea, but orcs will eventually overwhelm me because they have many villages inside the city. But if fight all the way, the shamans will suffer 60% of getting hit.

Is there any better way to accomplish this?
This should be nearly impossible. If that's a self imposed rule and you do make it, I'd love to see the replay. Otherwise, I suggest using horsemen guarding your side of the coast + 1-2 druids for healing. Until you capture the city, the usefulness of units other than horsemen, footpads and healers is limited.
There have been plenty of people who have finished that. I've done it with Elvish Scouts only, but I've never done with the shaman line for some reason..
If it were me I think I would hold off the orcs in the forest as you said with Konrad, the loyal mage, the two loyal horseman (or one if you didn't get Simyr in BP), and your foot shamans. I would then send the flying units and loyal mermen over the water to flank/distract the orcs and incoming skeles. Retreat slowly west with your land army (I would recruit several shamans to sacrifice if needed), and when the thieves give you the offer, take the secret passage. That opens a ford into the left side of the orcish island, which if you did your distraction well enough, it should be quite open, which then you should quickly kill the Orcish leader and burst out from there.

jiaming10
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by jiaming10 » March 13th, 2011, 3:21 am

elvish_sovereign wrote:There have been plenty of people who have finished that. I've done it with Elvish Scouts only, but I've never done with the shaman line for some reason..
If it were me I think I would hold off the orcs in the forest as you said with Konrad, the loyal mage, the two loyal horseman (or one if you didn't get Simyr in BP), and your foot shamans. I would then send the flying units and loyal mermen over the water to flank/distract the orcs and incoming skeles. Retreat slowly west with your land army (I would recruit several shamans to sacrifice if needed), and when the thieves give you the offer, take the secret passage. That opens a ford into the left side of the orcish island, which if you did your distraction well enough, it should be quite open, which then you should quickly kill the Orcish leader and burst out from there.
Hmm...looks like they are doing it without even recalling? I guess i'm not that good, so I'll recall druids and sorcerers =p. I'm gonna give a try on getting shydes/slyphs before Muff Janal Penisular, otherwise my army are not mobile enough to capture sea villages. My northeast army can "almost" reach Muff Janal(reached those forest just above his castle), with 1 loyal mage, 1 sorceress, and 2 shaman. Most fearful is DA at night, so I'll need to finish it off with lvl 3 Konrad, otherwise slow it with shaman( don't expect survival ).
GagarinGambit wrote: I'd love to see the replay.
Well, me too.

PS: suppose I posted in wrong post? Maybe I should put it in Campaign Challenges?

djf01
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by djf01 » March 18th, 2011, 4:38 am

This is something of a plea for help rather than pure feedback. So ... HELP !!!! I'm on the verge of abandoning Wesnoth over my inability to get past this roadblock.
(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium & 1.6.5 (Came with my Linux Distro). I've been through HttT 4 times now on easy (too many to maintain enjoyment), and few of the others successfully on medium,
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
11 I don't think it's completely impossible, but I've got to the point where I'm not learning any new strategies/tactics on my own sufficient to get past this.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The first few times, pretty good. Now, sick to death of it.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Apart from the obvious that I can't complete it?

I think the main problem is the tactics and strategies I've learned so far just don't help. The settup of the scenario is such that you only have a short time to take the city to avoid being overrun by the undead. To do this it seems necessary to sacrifice any ToD or Terrain tactical advantage - the sort of basic skills the easy levels of the game teach. This in and of itself isn't a band thing - I like scenarios which challenge the orthodox thinking

Skills which are just not needed when playing the game on easy: like money management and recall list planning, seem to suddenly become critical, and there are only a few preceding patterns with which to work out how to do this. But even so, I'm still unconvinced an intermediate level player like me can figure out how to get past this one on their own.

I *think* to win the scenario the player needs to take the Orc's keep, kill the Orc King and destroy the Orc army, all in the first few turns before the undead arrive. I can usually manage 2 of these 3 initial objectives, but never really all 3.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10-0. On my first playing of the campaign on easy it was the most fun scenario. I struggled but eventually prevailed, learnt heaps in the process. Part of the reason I've persisted so far with it. But now the fun factor is down to 0, and at the point of abandoning it.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Dunno.

It seems to me the balance went out with the shift from 1.4 to 1.6. Not just the change to the units, but mostly the way money is handled. The 40% carry-over reduces the typical starting gold because the preceding "easy" scenarios aren't as much help as they used to be in this regard. So my big question is:
<b>Has this scenario been rebalanced in 1.8.X to make it easier?</b> Because buggered if I'm going to all the hassle of upgrading, replaying the preceding scenarios again just to get stuck at the same road-block.

I <i>think</i> I'm currently 60 to 100 pieces of gold short of being able to win this scenario. Most of my early attempts focused on levelling more - and different types of - characters in the earlier patterns. The harder I tried with this, the less money I ended up with by SoE. In my most recent incarnation attempting to optimise my money, the recall list suffered, and I'm still only starting with 240g.

The closest I've gotten to winning this I spent all the early patterns levelling exclusively horsemen (a bit ineffectively I must admit). I started with 7 or 8 knights and a couple of horsemen. Launched my first strike, took the city, killed the Orc king. But *every* one of my horsies died in the process. Having taken the keep, I recalled the storm trident merman (who I also lost, along with my loyal mage) who with the help of the remaining mortally wounded thieves exploited terrain advantage to hold off the undead while I - very slowly - recruited a mage army. This took ages because I was recruiting a unit a turn while still losing a unit a turn. Eventually I got enough of an army together to advance, only to run out of turns trying to get through the gate to the undead king. With a bit of refinement, better pre-planning and some luck (or more likely endless save loading) that strategy would work. But I'm left to start the next pattern with no money, no levelled units and all my loyal units gone :-(.

I have no intention of trying this, but I suspect this scenario is easier on "hard", because by the time the player reaches SoE they have a recall list with enough levels 3s & disposable level 2s to survive the initial engagement with the Orcs. There are still some tactical elements of the game I'm yet to even start using effectively, like "slow", effective decoys and no doubt there is more. But other than improving the effectiveness of my play in the preceding patterns, I can't see it helping with this one much. I've already tried most of the "good" strategies suggest in this thread, and I don't even get close. The time tried the Mermen for example, in the very first attacking move by the Orcs, a warrior waded into the water, and with 3 slashes my priestess was gone. The storm trident didn't kill anyone, and I was soundly defeated prior to reaching first base :-(.

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GagarinGambit
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by GagarinGambit » March 18th, 2011, 1:46 pm

djf01 wrote:
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Apart from the obvious that I can't complete it?

I think the main problem is the tactics and strategies I've learned so far just don't help. The settup of the scenario is such that you only have a short time to take the city to avoid being overrun by the undead. To do this it seems necessary to sacrifice any ToD or Terrain tactical advantage - the sort of basic skills the easy levels of the game teach. This in and of itself isn't a band thing - I like scenarios which challenge the orthodox thinking
That's not the case, there's a pretty obvious strategical advantage here: your side of the river bank. OK, basic tactics are not enough, but you don't have to be a brilliant strategist in order to take advantage of it. Simply create a zoc quickly and make sure that the orcs will be fighting inside the water, while your troops on grassland; this is a significant advantage. Until you capture the city recruit only horsemen and footpads (if you have any left from the previous scenario), as they are your best fighters on flat terrain, plus 1 or 2 healers for support. Bring Konrad into the fight as well, his leadership will be extremely helpful. This straightforward strategy alone should be enough to capture the city by the time the undead arrive. If you have any further difficulties, have a look at the replay I posted, it's won on hard without using many high level units. Oh, and make sure you keep some spare gold, you'll need it to recruit a few mages as soon as you manage to step on the second keep.

Which reminds me: the beauty of this scenario from the point of view of a beginner, is that it encourages you to think more about the big picture instead of individual unit fights.
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djf01
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by djf01 » March 19th, 2011, 12:38 am

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

But I must say, this does epitomise the problems I've been having with this scenario, and with the advice contained herin.
it's won on hard without using many high level units.
Just lots of low level units - all on the verge of levelling :-).
Having pulled up the replay the main difference between my attempts and Ggs is pretty much all the level 1s GG used were on the verge of levelling. I've played many similar games attempting the same tactical approach, the main difference being I've normally lost 6 characters where as GG had lost 2 *and* levelled 4. And this is largely down to the quality of the recall list rather than the tactics. And a suitably rich recall list is easier to achieve on Hard rather than Medium.
GagarinGambit wrote: That's not the case, there's a pretty obvious strategical advantage here: your side of the river bank. OK, basic tactics are not enough, but you don't have to be a brilliant strategist in order to take advantage of it. Simply create a zoc quickly and make sure that the orcs will be fighting inside the water, while your troops on grassland; this is a significant advantage.
I don't think the advantage is significant enough. 20% defence vs 40% defence in most cases, and it's no advantage for Orcs on the bridge. You need a force ratio advantage as well, which GG achieved through the use of almost levelled characters. As I've learned the disadvantage of this approach is that even when it works, the undead have swamped the town by the time I'm in a position to take the Orc's keep. This occurred in GG's example too, but the units levelled in the battle with the Orcs were enough to seize the keep. I'd have still lost the game from this point, but clever use of decoys stopped the undead doing any meaningful damage for the couple of turns needed to consolidate. It didn't hurt that the undead levelled Konrad rather than killed him. The other thing that I took from GGs replay was how effective Konrad seemed to be as a decoy. Most of the Orcs stared at him across the river rather than engaging the main army. I've read here that a lot of players send a decoy to the western island for this purpose (I've never had enough spare resource to try this).

I think my issues here are:
1) With my current recall list, there is no way I could successfully implement this (or any other I've read about) suggested strategy.
2) It *might* be possible to get the recall list right on medium level (I'm still far from convinced this is possible/practical) for this one battle, but I've been through the early rounds so many times now I'm not the least bit interested in attempting it.
3) - and this is the biggest one - I'm learning all this cra. in a forum, rather than playing the game :-(.

Miniman237
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Re: Scenario 6: The Siege of Elensefar

Post by Miniman237 » March 19th, 2011, 4:45 am

djf01 wrote:Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

But I must say, this does epitomise the problems I've been having with this scenario, and with the advice contained herin.
it's won on hard without using many high level units.
Just lots of low level units - all on the verge of levelling :-).
Having pulled up the replay the main difference between my attempts and Ggs is pretty much all the level 1s GG used were on the verge of levelling. I've played many similar games attempting the same tactical approach, the main difference being I've normally lost 6 characters where as GG had lost 2 *and* levelled 4. And this is largely down to the quality of the recall list rather than the tactics. And a suitably rich recall list is easier to achieve on Hard rather than Medium.
GagarinGambit wrote: That's not the case, there's a pretty obvious strategical advantage here: your side of the river bank. OK, basic tactics are not enough, but you don't have to be a brilliant strategist in order to take advantage of it. Simply create a zoc quickly and make sure that the orcs will be fighting inside the water, while your troops on grassland; this is a significant advantage.
I don't think the advantage is significant enough. 20% defence vs 40% defence in most cases, and it's no advantage for Orcs on the bridge. You need a force ratio advantage as well, which GG achieved through the use of almost levelled characters. As I've learned the disadvantage of this approach is that even when it works, the undead have swamped the town by the time I'm in a position to take the Orc's keep. This occurred in GG's example too, but the units levelled in the battle with the Orcs were enough to seize the keep. I'd have still lost the game from this point, but clever use of decoys stopped the undead doing any meaningful damage for the couple of turns needed to consolidate. It didn't hurt that the undead levelled Konrad rather than killed him. The other thing that I took from GGs replay was how effective Konrad seemed to be as a decoy. Most of the Orcs stared at him across the river rather than engaging the main army. I've read here that a lot of players send a decoy to the western island for this purpose (I've never had enough spare resource to try this).

I think my issues here are:
1) With my current recall list, there is no way I could successfully implement this (or any other I've read about) suggested strategy.
2) It *might* be possible to get the recall list right on medium level (I'm still far from convinced this is possible/practical) for this one battle, but I've been through the early rounds so many times now I'm not the least bit interested in attempting it.
3) - and this is the biggest one - I'm learning all this cra. in a forum, rather than playing the game :-(.
Below is a replay of Siege of Elensefar 1.9.4 on medium difficulty. The ai's silly strategy of attacking my horsemen with all their troops from the sea proved to be the key to defeating the orcs in enough time. The orc leader also loves to charge out from his base to attack mages and such. You had the right idea with your Knight oriented strategy.
Note: I think I save loaded once to save my Outlaw on turn 6(?) from a run of bad luck. On turn 8, my mage who survived the swarm of skeletons was very lucky. OOS errors near the end of the replay are caused by time of day not working as it is supposed to in the cave.
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