Scenario 05b: Isles of the Damned

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Sly
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Post by Sly » July 31st, 2006, 10:30 pm

scott wrote:The only difference from NORMAL is a higher attack depth and the fog. It was about as hard as I cared to make the scenario this early in the campaign, even on HARD. Two ideas I had were to bump up the aggression on hard, since losses are more important to avoid in this scenario, and to remove your merman recalls and make you play it old-school. Everybody loves the priestess.
Yeah :wink:

Not that I were complaining, just that I expected it to be more difficult (but without priestess and trident, it was difficult to keep Moremirmu)

Lathai
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Post by Lathai » August 1st, 2006, 4:13 pm

This might be irrelevent since it was version 1.0.2 and a lot of the things I read don't seem to exist (trident, recalls, merman priestesses, etc.)

Anyhow:

1) hard

2) 7 if just surviving, 9.5 if trying to kill both liches

3) clear

4) it was fine

5)keeping moremiru and ulurf (sp?) alive at the very beginning in such a way to have a reasonable chance to kill both liches (not wasting too many turns)

6) 7

7) less forest might make it easier to get thugs around

I had to play this something like 16 times to manage to beat both liches, but it was still lots of fun. I ended up sending Konrad (as a commander) south with 4 merman and 3 thugs while moremiru, the rogue, a couple of footpads and another thug went north (this is after widdling away the first wave of skeletons from the north). The merman were fairly effective against the ghosts and one of them leveled. All three of the thugs going south died crossing the water but by that time the thug who had went north leveled and I sent him south. Moremiru killed the lich (had to wait for day). And the bandit being led by a now Lord Konrad managed to get the southern lich with a turn or two to spare.

Using almost all of the units as cannon fodder made it possible to get the more important units intact to the liches (the bandit, rogue, moremiru, and Konrad). There's probably better way to do this (without losing ~80% of one's units) but not for me. :)

Anyhow, I had great fun with this scenario, even though it was somewhat of a pain in the middle when someone died and I had to restart the level

Quitch
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Quitch » August 6th, 2006, 4:25 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7, Surviving is easy, killing a lich isn't too hard, but killing both?

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Trying to kill BOTH liches... damn that's hard... oh, and those bats taking my villages in the woods.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9, I'd been stomping the previous levels with my carefully leveled army, so while it was annoying that I couldn't level them further, I liked having this carefully constructed scenario to play with. It was easy to survive, thus not fustrating, but the bonus for killing both liches was worth playing for, and tricky to achieve, therefore it was fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Right now, nothing, but the random temples and inability to redeploy land forces might get annoying.

mattyd
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by mattyd » August 29th, 2006, 3:49 pm

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1) Medium, 1.1.8
2) 4 For killing one Lich, 7.5 for killing both. Overall, I'd say this scenario is much more doable with the ability to recall a mermaid priestess from BoP (You did level her, right?), and the guy with the trident. Taking down the southern Lich with only mermen on the morning or afternoon of the 3rd day is fairly easy, provided you have these two around.
3) Clear
4) It was fine.
5) The trickiest part of this scenario is the first night, when you're contending with the southern Lich's ghosts & skeletons with your merman army + White Mage and Outlaw, while trying to battle off the ghosts from the northern Lich that surround your keep.

I got lucky and got the mage on my first temple guess. I imagine getting the undead on your first try would make things pretty tough, if you didn't bring a few thugs along.

Sly
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Sly » August 30th, 2006, 9:11 am

mattyd wrote:I imagine getting the undead on your first try would make things pretty tough, if you didn't bring a few thugs along.
Now that Footpads have 5-2 attacks, they're better than thugs in my opinion : they both do impact, but footpads have ranged, more movement and 70% defense in forest, ok they do half the damage but there is no ripost :wink:

Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator » September 3rd, 2006, 12:51 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy at 1.0.1, Normal at 1.1.7
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Survive: 6
Kill one: 8
Kill both: 10 on easy, else it's pretty impossible
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A bit boring perhaps.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not to lose every unit except Konrad. Fighting undead with lv1 units is pretty annoying. Also, I didn't manage to get Moremirmu before turn 17 yet. There were always skelletons and ghosts blocking the way.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3 if you manage to find Moremirmu before time runs out, else 2.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would give the player more gold at the beginning (100 is just not enough, think about 200? Fighting about 30 undead with 6 Lv1 units and without Moremirmu is really annoying), also I would have placed less of that slowing terrain. It takes forever to get to the southern Lich.

fyo
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Post by fyo » September 9th, 2006, 2:23 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium (1.1.9, with "storm trident" patch, i.e. modified items.cfg, removing animation for storm trident)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Survive: 3
Kill both: 9 (unless you get Moremirmu or have the right mermen leveled in the previous scenario).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not clear. Survival is clear, but the effect of killing both leaders is completely obfuscated (see #4).

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Moremirmu's dialogue could be a lot clearer. Why hide the effect of killing both leaders? What about something like the following:

"Your quest is a noble one and I would love to join you, yet my heart remains committed to ridding these isles of undead. Once that is accomplished, I will join you." (IIRC, you get her later even if you don't kill both leaders - it just took some time for her to finish the job on her own).

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not falling for temptation and using save/reload to get the right temple first.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3, because just surviving isn't fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
This scenario is just too tough unless:

a) You've leved the right units in the previous scenario. (I had two level 2 merman warriors, whereas both Oceania and Heldaga (storm trident) were level 1 making them close to useless).

and/or

b) You pick the right temple by "luck" and get Moremirmu. It's a 50/50 situation. If you pick the wrong one, you're dead. If you pick the right one, you win. Simple as that. And NOT fun. Outcome shouldn't be decided on a simple coint flip and if you don't save/reload to get it right, the only viable strategy is to NOT go to the temples initially. That makes the scenario VERY tough (unless "a" above is applicable) and anything beyond just surviving seems like a stretch.

To make it more fun, I'd remove or at least reduce the luck factor of getting Moremirmu. Holy water in the empty temple, maybe? Or have the temples really close together so that you could at least get Moremirmu on one of the next two turns if you popped the wrong temple first.

peet
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Post by peet » November 12th, 2006, 7:21 am

(1) I played on "Medium." I originally played it in 1.0.2 and only recently in 1.1.12
(2) After becoming familiar with the scenario, I found it only moderately difficult - maybe 6 or 7, to kill both liches
(3) The objectives were pretty clear.
(4) I like the premise very much. However, there isn't a whole lot of dialogue.
(5) The turn limit is the real killer if you are going after both liches. The terrain you have to cover to get there makes it tricky. Though I never tried the all-mermen strategy - I mostly played it on 1.0.2 where you had no recalls at all.
(6) I love this scenario! I give it a 10.
(7) Changes I would make:

A: OK, first of all, after the Bay of Pearls, the last thing you need are more loyal mermen. So instead of creating two new ones from scratch, why not let the two "free" mermen at the start be called up from your recall list?

B: If you want to enhance the storyline a bit, perhaps have some dialogue between Moremirmu and the liches. Perhaps a death message if Moremirmu kills a lich himself, or if Moremirmu dies, one of the liches gloats about it. Likely their rivalry has gone on for a while.

C: There could be more story regarding Urlaf also (I didn't like the new name so I just went and changed it back). Perhaps, when Konrad asks what might be in the temples, Urlaf could give you a clue.

D: I can see that the suggestion of shutting down the recall list on Hard level has been implemented. But since you have so few chances to use those characters, it seems a waste to bar your access to them now. How about adding some extra tricks at hard? Like having some cuttle fish appear if mermen try to get too close to an enemy castle by sea? Or some submerged skeletons could show up.

E: Now that you have access to loyal units on your recall list, the gold situation might need to be a little tighter.

F: I see in the WML that Haf-Mal (the northern lich) is allowed to recruit Chocobones. Yet for some reason, he never seems to. I'd like to see them appear in this scenario.

Peet

talkitron
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Hard Getting tough

Post by talkitron » December 3rd, 2006, 3:33 am

I cannot "win" this scenario on hard in 1.1.12. By win I mean kill both villains. The enemy creates a lot of ghosts, and none of my units are specialized to get rid of ghosts. So there's a lot of flailing around fighting ghosts towards the beginning, which eventually leaves a lot of casualties.

I can send the white mage up to kill the northern guy with two units for support, but by the time he gets back it's pretty much just Konrad against the southern guy. I have no more "cannon fodder" units to win the south.

Maybe I need to get Konrad up to the northern castle to recall more units, but that would be hard.

talkitron
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Post by talkitron » December 3rd, 2006, 9:00 am

OK, I answered my own question. I focused on recruiting mermaid initiates, had them team up with the white mage to kill the north lich. The white mage did not have enough movement to get back down south to kill the south mage; I tried. However, I was able to near-suicide a leveled mermaid princess in a magic zap war with the south lich on round 21, which is in the daytime. The mermaid won, and I won on round 21. Some element of luck was required in the final battle, but there was no time to get a more deliberate force assembled down south.

Now on to the Siege of Elsenfar. Groan.

Kernigh
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Kernigh » February 21st, 2007, 2:51 am

From my wiki page: 'I tried Heir To The Throne twice in older versions of Wesnoth, but never won the Siege of Elensefar, not in the easy level. The releases of Wesnoth 1.2 and 1.2.1 regained my attention, and I have now finished A Tale of Two Brothers... and The South Guard.... Then I felt competent enough to attempt Heir To The Throne at the medium "Hero" level.'

Though I won through the Siege of Elensefar and ended my campaign at the Valley of Death, the only scenario I intend to comment on is Isles of the Damned.

In my pre-1.2 days, I preferred the Isles of the Damned with the sea route rather than the other scenario with the land route. I tried the land route scenario once, and it was easier, but that was not enough to win Elensefar. Now, having won the Siege once, I can affirm my preference for the Isles of the Damned.

(1) In February 2007, I played Isles of Damned on the medium "Hero" difficulty level in Wesnoth 1.2.1.
(2) Given my experience with pre-Siege scenarios, I now give Isles of the Damned a scenario difficulty of 4/10 when resisting to the end of turns. It is not easy, but I can fight well enough to level some Footpads to Outlaws while keeping the undead away from Konrad. Because I have never been able to kill either of the lichs, I cannot rate that goal. (I give a "10" to scenarios that I barely win, such as Into the Depths (The South Guard).)
(3) This scenario is the first that I encounter in any campaign where I have the option to "Resist until the end of turns". But I know what that means, and it seems reasonable that Konrad's ships will eventually rescue their leader.
(4) The dialog here is sufficiently okay.
(5) The major challenges are...
  • To decide which units to recruit. In earlier turns, I mostly recruited or recalled merfolk while in later turns, I mostly recruited humans. By far, Mermaid Initiates and Footpads are most useful. In particular, Thugs and Poachers are almost useless because they cannot move fast enough through these isles.
  • To hold villages. On the first turn, the Merman Fighters take the nearby coastal villages, Delurin the Outlaw takes the other nearby village, and Konrad takes the village to his north. Then I have to recall or recruit many merfolk to seek other villages. This is the key to financing the recruitment of Footpads.
  • To fight with merfolk. Besides taking villages, the other job of the merfolk is to distract the undead, so that fewer undead reach my collection of Footpads advancing toward the temples. Though my merfolk fought from the water, they still took enough damage that they had to waste turns recovering in distant villages. Toward the end of the scenario, nearly all of my merfolk were on the west edge of the map, busy recovering in villages or taking turns just to reach villages.
  • To handle the temples. My goal is to advance the Footpads to the temples, but first they must fight many undead. Once the undead implode, I can reach the temples near the end of turns. The best strategy is to send Footpads or Outlaws to all three temples on the same turn. This leaves enough forces to quickly dispatch the undead that appear. I never have enough turns left for Moremirmu the White Mage to participate in any other fighting.
Meeting those challenges that way, most Footpads will approach the northern lich while Moremirmu leads a group toward the souther lich. I will control most of the map and Konrad will remain on the keep, having not enough turns to go anywhere after recruiting the last Footpad. Though I might have one or two units suicidally engage each lich, I can not begin to consider killing a lich unless I have four more turns. 24 turns is not enough.

But, for the good of the story, I will never have 4 more turns, because of the necessity of having the ship rescue Konrad and go to Elensefar. It is better to take my Footpads and Outlaws to Elensefar than to kill the lichs. This is why I play Isles of the Damned.

(I ultimately stuck myself in the Valley of Death. Despite multiple attempts, I never won that scenario, though in the last attempt, I saw Moremirmu the Mage of Light approach with three White Mages; but my army was not strong enough to hold the center castle, and Moremirmu's team were not close enough to fight anything. So I have ended my campaign, but I may restart Heir to the Throne in the future.)

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Post by Mist » March 12th, 2007, 10:12 pm

(1) Medium 1.3.1
(2) 7 To kill the liches
(3) Clear
(4) Whole lot of wasted possibilities.
(5) Dealing with the ghosts wchich is quite a pain with only footpads at hand and becomes impossible when one manages to level to sceptre. On the other hand its quite easy to throw bunch of mermen inherited from bay of pearls anticlockwise round the island to kill both liches.
(6) 3 Annoying, mainly because of the ghosts and the fact that terrain turns the white mage obsolete.
(7) Make the southern lich less likely to recruit ghosts.

Jigsawn
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Post by Jigsawn » February 11th, 2008, 3:58 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Wesnoth version 1.3.14 - Normal difficulty

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 (though to kill both Liches - seems like about 9)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I liked the scenario here a lot, cool setting and nice to have some other characters pop up.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I had a force of mermen who turned out to be pretty useless, except for diverting forces away from my central troops. I think the biggest problem I had was mobility, and the difficulty in killing the ghost things. I didn't realise until the end that the footpad has a large move distance compared to the others, so I was building lots of archer guys and thugs. I didn't manage to kill any of the Liches - I tried to kill the upper one but he and his skeletons destroyed my attack force completely - I think the problem was the terrain meant I couldn't totally surround him.

In the end I comfortably held off the attacks, but taking out the Liches seems pretty impossible. My mermen got decimated as well - as soon as they get close enough to land to attack, they get swarmed by skeletons and can only survive a few hits.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7 - I still enjoyed it despite the difficulty, I like the setting a lot, and the bandit/white mage character combo for a seperate mini-battle on the other side of the map.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
- Have some dialogue from the bandit guy that points out that the footpads are good at getting around this terrain fast.
- Maybe reduce the amount of damage that the Liches can inflict.
- Have less of the ghost things (or make them less hard to kill)
- Give a reward for killing only one Liche, and a better reward for killing 2.

Lyinar
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Lyinar » February 18th, 2008, 6:08 am

Version: 1.2.8

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10 - a skin-of-my-teeth victory. I had no knowledge of that uber-trident everyone goes on about, or some high-level priestess, and fought the whole thing with level 1 troops.

My first push inland was swiftly bottled up by ghosts I could not hit often enough or hard enough to kill, and my thugs/poachers/footpads/that-one-level-2-guy were steadily pushed back and slaughtered. My merfolk nabbed up shoreline and island villages, and I sent one on a suicide run to check out the temples (got Mr. White Mage on first try, had some fun making revenge attacks on undead with weapons that actually damaged them). That income let me produce more Merfolk, especially Mermaid Initiates whose magic attack was wonderful against the skellies. I held the "moat" between the start island and the shore until near the very near end, when a ghost (who was 50% resistant to EVERY attack and had Drain besides) broke through and levelled up to Spectre to boot! He was in a position to absolutely slaughter Konrad, but fortunately the turns ran out just in time.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear: Survive.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Interesting setup and justification to leave you without your "Good" units. Mr. White Mage was not clear that he would not come with you unless both liches were killed until the very end, when they still exist and he says he's staying. That was a downer.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The Ghost units which the undeads spammed out and which have high resistances (something on the order of 50%) to EVERYTHING available to throw at them - and which furthermore have that incredible irritating "Drain" ability that usually lets them come out even for HP. Also, not enough starting money.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

10, actually. I love pulling off a desperate defence, barely holding the enemy off until the evac chopper/boat/dropship arrives. That said, there is no counter to the ghosts, which makes them incredibly frustrating to fight (especially given their Drain ability).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

No ghosts. Mr. White Mage comes with you irregardless of what happens to the liches. Larger starting gold reserves.

No ghosts.

Sly
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Sly » February 18th, 2008, 9:32 am

Lyinar wrote:Mr. White Mage comes with you irregardless of what happens to the liches.
Don't worry, if he didn't come with you at that time, he'll later in desperate times :wink:

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