Scenario 4: Bay of Pearls

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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dtw
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Post by dtw »

i played today in 0.8.10 and at the end delfador appeared in the sea on the spot where he used to appear - it was quite funny :) maybe it needs fixing tho :)

Shade
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Oops must of missed a set of co-ordinates.

Post by Shade »

Oops must of missed a set of co-ordinates. I'll fix it. Thanks for the report.

edit: fixed. Tisk, tisk, waiting for the time to run out to win :)
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xtifr
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I really like it

Post by xtifr »

This is the scenario that first convinced me the Wesnoth was a truly interesting game. The first time I played, I mindlessly bashed my way through the first couple of scenarios without too much difficulty (on Medium, no less), and was starting to become afraid that Wesnoth was, while very pretty, not actually much of a game. (Something that I think is true of too many games these days.) However, Bay of Pearls brought me up short. In fact, I got whupped! My simple, spend-all-your-money and rush your hordes at the enemy "strategy" just wasn't going to work this time! I was going to have to use some actual strategy for a change! So, I developed some strategies, and learned a few tactics, and pretty soon, I had it beat. And I was really pleased.

After having played some more of the game, I'd have to rate the difficulty level as fairly low - it's not hard, it just makes you think. But I like that. I like it a lot. And I completely don't understand the complaints about the small castle. I mean, first of all, you're getting all sorts of free troops, so it's not like you need a big castle. And second of all, if you don't rush your troops forward to be slaughtered, you should have enough guys built up by the time you meet the land forces to stand 'em up, so what's the big deal? How is that "annoying"? Honestly, some people should stick to tiddly-winks. :wink:

dtw
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Post by dtw »

waiting!? i was foxed mate! i had to start over as I was getting my arse kicked at elsenfar - got my trip to see muff this time :)

delfador was in the right place that time - i was confused but now i see why it was there - good job someone was around to play the wimp's way :)

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov »

1) Difficulty level:
Medium only

2) Difficulty to complete
7/10 - Mostly because of the sea battle

3) Objective clarity:
Completely clear - kill at least one leader

4) Dialog:
Did the job, but it could be better . Some people have already mentioned this: perhaps the presence of alternative campaign paths could be explained. So you realise that killing both leaders gives you a choice in route. I only realised that there was a diverging path when I had a quick browse over the walkthrough wiki, and by then I was fighting a deperate rearguard action on the Isle Of The Damned, up to my pixilated armpits in undead. (Next time I beat both leaders and chose the land route).

5) Challenges:
The sea battle. Now just let me get this straight. Mermen have 6-3 attack and 50% defence in deep water. Naga have 5-4 attack and also 50% defence in deep water. (Btw, this is version 1.0 for Mac). Yet considering this my Mermen hardly ever landed a hit, while it was frequent for Naga's to get in all 4 strikes. Several times (I replayed
the level ~5 times to verify this) I would surround one single <BLEEEP> Naga with with six Mermen, in open water and in daylight. Yet it would take up to 3 rounds to kill the Naga, and in that time he would have killed a couple of my Mermen, by himself! :x The way I see it, that defies just about every law of probability and would be enough to make any mathematician do him/herself in from sheer despair :shock:. Is there some intentional unbalance here to make the battle harder?? Or am I somehow reading the unit profiles wrong?? Keep in mind that this wasn;t a one-off, it happened over and over.
Anyway, apart from that (a good rant is does wonders for the sanity), the level wasn't too difficult.

6) Fun:
4/10 - That sea battle was such a pain, really spoiled the whole level for me. If I were to disregard that, it would be 7/10.

7)Changes:
If there is something fishy going on with the sea battle (that is the worst pun ever :) ) then I would get rid of it, pronto. Oh, and that river that seperates your castle from the main beach was not just a pain, but an unneccasary one. The tiny castle is fine, it limits your units, but crossing that river is just plain annoying.
Just curious, what is with Bugg the archer who 'morphs' into a sea-orc? Is he for comic relief purposes only?

<<<<SPOILER>>>>
If you wish to figure this out yourself, read no further.

HINT: I found one tactic that worked every time was this:
On land just build up a medium force, backed by several veteran units and plenty of healing. Set up a defence line anchored around at least one village and don't advance unless you get the perfect opportunity. (A wedge-type formation with my strongest units rotating through the 'point' of the wedge worked for me).
Now to sea. Obviously you can release three cages of mermen in first turn. (As I said, this is v1.0 for Mac). Now take all five mermen north up the very easternmost edge of the map. It seems that the island orc leader and anything he recruits will ignore you if you go this way (I stress, the very edge of the map). His forces will attack you land army, where they are little more then free XP. :twisted:
When the two Naga guarding the big cage charge you, engage them with all but one Merman. Use the last Merman to bust the big cage. One newly freed Merman grabs the Storm Trident, the rest go south and help deal with the guards. (That gives you a 1:4 superiority in numbers there).
When the guards are dispatched move your Mermen in on the island leader. In daylight with the Storm Trident you should be able to knock off the big orc before he can call his units back. When they do arrive you will have a nice defensive position and four villages for healing.
Now back to the land battle. Your land force will probably have been assualted by a heap of trolls. Once again your Mermen can help. split them, one half heading for the land based enemy leader, the other occupying the villages in the central stretch of shallow water. The enemy should respond by moving forces back to protect himself and diverting yet more forces to recapture the sea villages. This takes the heat off your land army, which should then be able to dispatch any remaining trolls and advance.
Any enemies entering the water are easy meat. They will be in low-defence terrain, pinned between Mermen and Elves/Humans. After that the rest is simple: finish off the enemy for gold bonus or milk his remaining forces for XP.

Phew, that turned out longer then expected. Anyway, that tactic worked well for me.
Also, if I am just wasting my time by stating the obvious here like the true newbie I am, please tell me so I can stop making an idiot of myself. :P

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Eleazar
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Re: Scenario Review: Bay of Pearls

Post by Eleazar »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?[/i]
Perfectly clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The sea orc is seems to be a point of contention. I don't have a problem with him. He made me smile the first few times. It's an intersting twist that Defador leaves, though his explanations seems a bit contrived. It's a good thing to not always have all of the same main character around for every scenario.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Once i figured out that Konrad could recruite AND free the mermen in the first cage on his first turn, and furthermore that thoses merman could free others, the whole sea-battle became do-able. In the past the land battle has been pretty tough, recently the troll hoard has waded out after my mermen, making it relatively easy to take them on both flanks. I don't know if the AI has changed or my tactics.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 It's fun to have the mermen's help in this level.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Since one of the keys to victory is freeing the first merman on the first turn, i'd have the first one call out something like, "Free us, kind human, and well will help you overthrow the Orcs!" ... just to prod the player in the right direction.

I'd recommend this (or a new) scenario come before the Isle of Anduin, since it seems to me significantly easier than Anduin. If this BoP and IoA are switched, the story of Blackwater Port would have to be changed a bit. Blackwtr would become a point on the path to the BoP, and BoP whould gain the rational of being the place where they board ship for Anduin

Add some of the additional Mer-units to give the sea-battle variety. Allowing them all might be a bit overwhelming for the newbie however.
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Aloo
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Scenario Review: Bay of Pearls

Post by Aloo »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

easy, medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2 on medium

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

clear. Dont understand why the ork changes to sea ork.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

lack of challanges - easy scenario - mermen can take care of them selves and pull of a lot of the enemy ground force into the water

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

none. good scenario for leveling up units.

scott
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Post by scott »

Scenario update (for v1.1):

Depending on how you look at it, the changes for this scenario are minor or major. Very little has changed gameplay wise, but cosmetically there are some highly visible differences.

No dialogue was added. If you can't figure out that the merman cage sitting right in front of you on top of a village is something interesting, I can't really help you.

The mermen have all received traits. This helps them survive a bit longer, but the difference is very minor.

You receive 1 hunter and 1 initiate when you open the big cage. Again, this gives you some more power but your new units are fragile. Gameplay didn't seem to change much, but I only played through once with them.

You can now recruit all 3 types of merfolk (if you get this option at the end of the scenario). If you can level up the initiate, her holy attack can be very useful for the Isle of the Damned. Go nuts.

Thank you for resurrecting this topic. The scenario changes won't be available for a while unless you compile SVN and play that. Scenario reviews continue to be welcome.
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Emmanovi
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Post by Emmanovi »

Hmm... will the updates be in a future version of wesnoth?

Or will the entire campgaign appearon the server?

:?
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ivanovic
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Post by ivanovic »

Why should the campaign appear on the server? The changes are made to the unstable branch. Scott now has the right to change these files and he will directly work on the thrilling 1.1-svn version of Wesnoth. It will take some more weeks until we have the first 1.1 release, but in this release these changes will be integrated. The changes will NOT be integrated into the 1.0.x line that is current atm.

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Post by Emmanovi »

Thanks... Sorry, I was just wondering how this was to come into effect.
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Post by turin »

ivanovic wrote:Why should the campaign appear on the server? The changes are made to the unstable branch. Scott now has the right to change these files and he will directly work on the thrilling 1.1-svn version of Wesnoth. It will take some more weeks until we have the first 1.1 release, but in this release these changes will be integrated. The changes will NOT be integrated into the 1.0.x line that is current atm.
It wasn't clear at first because previously, scott did not have commit privileges, and it is not like when someone is given them it is announced.
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scott
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Post by scott »

Yeah, I have to think up a decent title.
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G0rk
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Post by G0rk »

(1)Easy, Med.
(2) killing the land guy was easyish when using mounted troops to run past the enemy with non mounted distractions, killing the sea guy was annoying because of the limited and weak troops you had
(3) Clear
(4) cheezy diolog for the land orc and the goblin, also why didn't the sea orc just kill the annoying guy, letting him live aint very orcish
(5) limited sea warriors, bunched up land fighters make it harder to get troops past
(6) 6
(7) make mermen recruitable, make dialog fun.
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Roro
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Bay of Pearls

Post by Roro »

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium.
Dave wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 - some planning is required but strategical blunders by the AI render it quite easy afterwards.
Dave wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly clear.
Dave wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The Bugg story is only moderately funny - and I understood only after the fact that he's transforming into a Sea Orc.
Dave wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Finding the right strategy (i.e. send the mermen north as fast as possible).
Dave wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7 - the land/sea combined arms aspect is interesting, the small castle and river create a challenge for building up the land force, and the mermen cages provide a nice touch of variety in the strategy. However, the AI's strategic stupidity is disappointing : the sea orc lost the bulk of his forces attacking my land forces while letting my mermen free the NW cage and grab the trident, and the land orc made a futile and very costly attempt to retake the sea villages in front of the island.
Dave wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The AI should be smarter (easier said than done, I know!):
*The sea orc should only care about my sea forces and the land orc about my land forces.
*More important, the sea orc should be aware that it's doomed if I open the NW cage and defend it accordingly.

PS: I forgot to mention I played in version 1.0.2.

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