Scenario 1: The Elves Besieged

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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ott
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Post by ott » September 28th, 2004, 12:45 pm

Relative to wesnoth-0.8:

(1) Levels: medium, easy, hard

(2) Difficulty: 1-4 (meeting objective), 5-6 (scoring significant XP against enemies, while suicidal allies keep grabbing my kills), 10 (keeping allies alive, never done it yet)

(3) Objectives: clear.

(4) Dialog/storyline: OK, but there are too many popup dialogue boxes saying too little each, especially the intro -- the same could be said with fewer irritating popups.

(5) Challenges: avoiding the NW orc sending all its troops to block Konrad (feinting to the N/NE helps to draw them off), keeping allies alive (pretty impossible), finishing off enemies before the end of each round (otherwise allies grab the kill).

(6) Fun: 6, a bit depressing to see the allies playing so badly time after time again -- how are the elves ever going to survive without the help of the humans?

(7) Changes: consolidate some of the intro dialogue, so that fewer separate pieces are needed. Improve the elven AI so it isn't so suicidal, perhaps by paying more attention to ZOC and day/night, not rushing out with the leaders for no reason, and ceasing to send out lone units to run around randomly.

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Re: Scenario Review: Elves Besieged

Post by daloser » September 29th, 2004, 6:47 pm

Dave wrote: (1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) [1]
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1 - E,M
2 - 2
3 - Clear
4 - Good, does what it needs to do re: setting the stage for the campaign.
5 - Getting XP, elf allies stealing kills.
6 - 7
7 - A bit less help from the elves, giving the player more chances for XPs.

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Re: Scenario Review: Elves Besieged

Post by allover » October 1st, 2004, 5:55 am

Dave wrote: (1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy, Medium
Dave wrote: (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) [1]
2 (easy), 3 (medium, much later) - I did it the first time I ever played Wesnoth; that's maybe a good thing. Simply recruiting a castleful of escorts and running for the exit was pretty easy, although I did get stomped on Medium when a wad of trolls and crossbowmen came down and got me. The idea of running for the exit unescorted seemed so unsafe I didn't consider it at first; even at the end I brought Delfador (although he wasn't necessary).
Dave wrote: (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
Dave wrote: (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good, although I did find the turn limit a bit weird. I generally don't like turn limits much, although I see why they're needed. Especially on the first encounter, though, they seem odd. Perhaps (hmm, verging on breaking my rule here, sorry) if the bottom orc kept recruiting and recruiting endlessly? They can't catch you before the turn limit anyway, if you run for it, but it makes the hurry very real. (And it would shut up the "I could kill them all if I only had time" guys).
Dave wrote: (5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
Avoiding a party of trolls sent down the middle; running along the river made that easy (I assumed it would take longer to cross the river, but apparently not).
Dave wrote: (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6 - I like it, a good introduction to Wesnoth: it says "Look, it's not just a kill-em-all game!", it lets you see some combats (so you can be afraid of the correct units), it explains why the constantly changing locations. It would be nice if the allies played well enough that you could learn some tactics from them, but that's pretty far-fetched. Watching the Elves poison themselves to death is depressing, though.
Dave wrote: (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
As few suggestions as possible until I finish the scenario.

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Post by Glowing Fish » October 4th, 2004, 9:29 pm

1. Easy

2. 4--the first time I played this scenario, even though I had only played the tutorial, I got through easily. Of course, it wasn't until my third try that I also managed to get my units close to leveled up

3. Very clear, and it certainly was interesting that the first scenario should be about reaching a certain point. I found this an intersting change from, say, Heroes of Might and Magic x, where the point was almost always to defeat the enemies.

4.Very clear. I especially liked how Konrad gets worried when the first orc units arrive at his home, and Delfador tells him to go on.

5. The first time I played it, I tried to send down two units to slow the Southern army. They slowed them down for about 1 turn. Now the biggest challenge is trying to get some XP for my army.

6. 7 It would be more fun if Konrad didn't have to slog through the forest so much. Watching him sloooowly move is a little boring.

7. All in all, I think it is about where it needs to be.

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Post by Zhukov » November 11th, 2005, 4:03 am

1) Difficulty Level
Medium only

2) Difficulty to complete
1/10 - If you just get Konrad to sign ASAP, especially with the way your allies form a corridor and cover your flanks.
4/10 - If you try to get some (3-4) level ups.

3) Objective clarity
Totally clear, even on first ever try.

4) Dialog
It was clear...and interesting as well. The first time. After that it became pure torture. I saved the game at turn 1 just to avoid the intro. (Although that kind of goes for almost any intro in any game)

5) Challenges
Getting XP for a unit then keeping that unit alive from enemy flanking and/or surrounding.
Also, whenever I weakened that lovely lvl3 enemy, chock full of potential XP, an ally would sneak in to the fray and get the death blow. Very frustrating to see an allied Shamen level up under your nose, while at the same time denying you a Captain or Marksman.

6) Fun
7/10 - It makes a new player think they are a tactical genious when they beat it first try with no casualties. Until of course you realise just how important XP is.

7) Changes
All-round decent level, especially as an intro. However, perhaps the allies could leave heavily wounded enemies for you to knock off, or at least not go and kill an enemy you have painstakingly whittled down over the last 3 turns. (I know virtually nothing about crafting AI, so I dunno if that is possible to do.)[/i]

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Re: Scenario Review: Elves Besieged

Post by Eleazar » November 11th, 2005, 3:05 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy, 5-7 times through much of the game.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 or 3
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Obvious: RUN AWAY! At first i wan't sure how long i could stay at the keep and still survive.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Maybe i found it too interesting. I've never been sure why the Elves were so cheerfully willing to let this Elven city be slaughtered just so Konrad could escape. In other parts of Wesnoth they seem to be pretty reluctant to fight for other races.

If these are unusually nice Elves, it makes me want to see them or here about them again somewhere. After all these are the people Konrad apparently grew up with. Chantal could become the same elf as Panadra (Maybe Kon didn't know she was queen) You could script it so she "escaped" at the point of dying, right? Orc: "Now we've got you- you treacherous Elfling!" *Poof* Orc:"Hey where'd she go? She's got away!"

In any case, as a new player, this felt like an apocoliptic invasion of elfland. I'd like to hear about how the elve fared here later.

Possible elven motivations:
1) "Go, Konrad. This is not your fight. We will die before we let the Orcs profane our ancient homeland."
2) "Konrad, there is no way we can hold against this many Orcs. Go now, slow-footed human. When you have a sufficient head start, we will dissapear into the forest. We can no longer protect you here."
(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
It's not hard to beat, but it is hard to get any XP for your units.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. As a new player it was pretty confusing, all this stuff was happening, and if i tried to get involved i died. Later on it's less troubling, but not too much fun, since it's pretty difficult to do much fighting (beyond cleaning up a few units of the NW Orc)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I'd add a few patches of road or dirt to expidite the Human's excape. I'd also make the NW orc recruit more L1 units so my elves would have a chance of earning some XP.

Maybe add have a smaller level between this and BWP for the player to get used to his elves before the horsemen are introduced.
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Scenario Review: Elves Besieged

Post by Aloo » November 15th, 2005, 11:22 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Easy, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

On Easy - 1

On Medium - 2 if only getting Konrad to objective, 5 if trying not to loose units and get experience

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear and intresting

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

Not loosing units. On Medium I managed to loose Delfador once.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

4

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None that I can think of. Maybe some tips for new players that forrest = good for elves and fighting orks at night = bad :)

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Post by bruno » December 25th, 2005, 8:24 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium and Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) [1]
2

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
They were clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ok.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
Trying to figure out how small of a screening force I could get away with.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think the gold bonus for early finish should go. 30 gold per turn rewards fleeing as fast as possible. By removing this incentive a player has some motivation to stick around as long as they dare to try to pick up a few EPs or a small amount of gold. (You can take some allied castles early and still get back to screen Konrad and Delfador and have a positive income long enough to get over the 100 gold base of the next scenario without the early finish bonus. Though just barely.)
I think doing something to slow down the attackers from the south so that you hold villages longer will make trying to hang around more valuable. This seems to fit better with Konrad's reluctance to leave, It will leave you with potentially a lot less gold at the start of the next scenarion, since you aren't likely to make up for a 200 gold early finish bonus with the current set up. I don't know that that is deal killer as I think the following scenario would still be playable without a lot of gold even if it was changed so that you had to actually fight.

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Post by Minor_Joey » January 3rd, 2006, 11:10 pm

If i were to answer these questions it would just repeat some of the previous replies. So im going to make it easier for everyone and just answer #7


To make this scenario funner I would do one or two things. First, i say to make it so your allies don't get in your way when trying to level up your units. I find it so irritating when you ar just about to finish off a level two troll and your ally finishes him off for you.... This annoys me extremly. :x

Second, I would make it so it is harder to get to the signpost. Maybe make the green orc closer to the signpost, and make him stronger (so orange doesn't wipe him out in a couple of turns.) Don't make them too strong though, as this is the first scenario and it should be on the easy side. The first time I played this scenario I laughed at the computer after I won. It was just too easy, way too easy.

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Post by scott » January 3rd, 2006, 11:33 pm

Minor_Joey wrote:First, i say to make it so your allies don't get in your way when trying to level up your units. I find it so irritating when you ar just about to finish off a level two troll and your ally finishes him off for you.... This annoys me extremly.
Honestly, if I knew how to do this I probably would.
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Post by Shakiko » March 13th, 2006, 10:33 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

easy, bfw 0.8x - medium, bfw 1.0 rc - Hard bfw 1.11
I can't rember much of the first playthrough (on easy) anymore, thus I'm gonna give feedback regarding medium and hard only.


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

2 - pretty easy if you don't want to farm exp.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

very clear


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

The beginning dialog is abit long considering there is like no information told.


(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

To accept the fact that you can't protect your allies and you can't farm exp that well like I was used to from playing many other scenarios/campaigns.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

relatively to the other scenarios in that campaign ?
6 - It was neither that much fun or that boring that I'll remeber it as "standing out of the mass/other scenarios".


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

hmm... you could tell the player that he should focus on running and using ZoC to secure Konroad/Delfador instead of killing enemies, but I guess that would address only starters/beginners.
It would prevent ppl from being frustrated that your allies get the xp for killing a mob you weakened though.

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Post by FCDallas96 » April 13th, 2006, 9:53 pm

1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1, no troops are even needed to complete the stated objective, as the orange elves do a good job of walling off a corridor to the signpost

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear

4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very clear and interesting the first time through. On subsequent visits, still clear, but not so interesting anymore. Luckily, you don't have to move your mouse to click through the text, so no big deal.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

None, to complete the stated objective. Otherwise, getting xp for my troops.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

2, not difficult enough to complete the objective and trying to get xp is too difficult because your allies keep stealing it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Increase difficulty to complete stated objective by reducing the number of orange elves. This limits their ability to wall off the escape path, thus making it more difficult for Konrad to escape. This would also satisfy those who wish to get extra xp out of this level.

Also, is there anyway to change the turn order? Going right after the orcs means they've shored up their lines, so any attacks serve only to weaken the enemy for your allies to get the xp.

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Heir to the Throne - Elves Besieged

Post by Mille » May 25th, 2006, 9:39 am

(1) Easy, Medium
(2) 2
(3) Very clear - Its running man:)
(4) quite good - But sometimes, like in every scenario i would like to skip it:(
(5) Don´t loosing units, mking xp´s
(6) For beginners its really good starters campaign
(7) I don´t think there should be changed much in this version regarding the map main tasks and game play. Indeed - Another idea would be a second goal target, that can be reached during rescuing konrad that would give you a small bonus for another level. ?
Regarding xps for enemies finished by frinds:9
I don´t think this is a problem. For every fight you get a small sum of xp. Finishing a enemy gives more xp. Thats a correct and easy to understand for everybody. So don´t change it.

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Post by mod-zero » May 31st, 2006, 2:04 pm

scott wrote:
Minor_Joey wrote:First, i say to make it so your allies don't get in your way when trying to level up your units. I find it so irritating when you ar just about to finish off a level two troll and your ally finishes him off for you.... This annoys me extremly.
Honestly, if I knew how to do this I probably would.
even as a beginner that i was, i enjoyed trying to get the _kills_ before my allies could :D
leaving the units harmed yet your allies unable to kill them, or block your allies off seems unlogical, but fun :P
was the first thing i learned in this game - afterwards, i restarted the scenario from the beginning and actually was able to finish it with 2 leveled units and a leveled defaldor :D

sorry that i didnt fill in the survey yet, but im restarting the campaign (installed new ver. and mysteriously i erased savegames) and will edit my comment as soon as im done with the map :)

btw, might want to add another question:
( 8 ) elapsed time
just so you can see, how long the scenarios/campaigns take to play..

edit:
(1) medium
(2) 0 (running) 3 (leveling some) 5 (leveling loads) 7 (northern orcs dead) 10 (all 3 leaders defeated, unable to do it yet)
(3) clear
(4) clear, but you have two ways to choose, where to cross the river; one very (!) easy (going west then upwards), one harder but more experience to gain (going up and helping the elve defend, then going left right thru the orcs) - why is that not mentioned in dialogue? its the first scenario to be played, so give me some help on how to solve it.. :P
(5) no problems at all
(6) 10 - the challenge beating blue ist still up :)
(7) add units to yellow if players units pass a certain point up northeast, otherwise yellow leader free xp
(8) ~25 mins
eat me?

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Scenario Review: Elves Besieged

Post by Aloo » June 9th, 2006, 1:20 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

All

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very intresting

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

Time (on very hard only 10 turns) and not losing units

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Stop allies from stealing XP

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