Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

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shadowblack
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by shadowblack » June 30th, 2011, 12:36 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.7, Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3 at first, goes down to 0 after you kill all enemies

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not really clear. I wasn’t sure if Konrad had to reach the destination, or if any unit at all had to reach it (though closer examination of the map reveals that the terrain there is deep water, so Konrad can’t go there). Then the objectives changed to going elsewhere, but this time bringing a random unit wasn’t good enough – I had to bring Konrad. Which was a real waste of time and gold. If I had known Konrad would need to go there I would have sent him that way from the beginning and saved myself a few very boring turns.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not losing any units I didn’t mind losing. Also leveling the Sergeant, which I managed to do thanks to some luck with his shots.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4 – starts fine, but the drakes are not much of a challenge, and then I had to waste my time waiting for Konrad to get to the cave entrance because there was nothing else for me to do

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
At first I was surprised no objectives showed up after the starting conversations ended. Then after seemingly-nothing happened for a while, a drake showed and the talking resumed. The sudden silence between the two parts of the talking was confusing at first, so maybe there could be a “Wait, I think I hear something coming…” to indicate that there’s something happening and that’s why the objectives have not been show yet.

Also, allow the scenario to end by bringing ANY unit to the cave entrance. Having to wait and watch for several turns as Konrad slowly makes his way to the entrance is no fun.

It might be a good idea to increase the frequency with which the tents in the east part of the map spawn drakes. This way the closer you get to the east part the more drakes there will be, making the fight a bit more difficult.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

Thoughts:
The scenario was much easier than I expected. I thought there would be more drakes than there were. I also got worried when I accidentally got too close to one of the undead, but it turned out they don’t move, so pulling away made the issue go away.
The most difficult part was killing the serpents without too many losses. Thanks to some good luck even that was relatively easy.
The end of the scenario, where I just stood there and waited for Konrad to reach the cave entrance, was boring.
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taptap
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by taptap » December 11th, 2011, 12:24 am

This scenario is broken. The drakes spawn only once per village - this must be a bug. The undead guardians are broken too, I started with one L3 merman and half a dozen L2, but ending with 13 L3 merman, Warven near L4, and 8 gryphon masters for free just because you can go and kill 3 draugs per turn is unbalanced - I checked the statistics, I have killed 69 Draugs during the campaign likely all in this scenario, but despite Valley of Death only 32 Skeletons, 23 Walking Corpses...

Improvement ideas: Remove the undead or make them a genuine party in the scenario. If removing the undead, one can cut the southern part of the map too. Fix the bug with the drakes - maybe one per village per turn is superhard, but 12 drakes in total is ridiculous (even if they are experienced).
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Telchin
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by Telchin » June 2nd, 2012, 2:23 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Begginer difficulty, versions 1.8.4 and 1.10.0
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4, however I remeber that when I played it for the first time in 1.4.7 I found it impossible, so I suppose it was made easier with newer versions (I don't think I've became a better player)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It's clear that you have to move somewhere, but the destination changes during the scenario and it's not clear that Konrad is the one that must reach the location (it says "make it to the end of the river", not "Konrad reaches the end of the river")
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This scenario is mostly an easter egg and excuse to fight drakes, but I liked the part where they discuss the drake as he was a monster while he is standing right there and clearly understand them. That was funny!
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This scenario needs the player to understand its mechanics - don't recall ground units, use mermen to fight drakes and use gryphons to destroy drake respawn points. Unlike the aforementioned 1.4.7 (where even this tactic didn't help) in 1.10 my biggest problem were the serpents guarding Warven (as unlike Drakes they have good defense in water and are poisonous)
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6 - the beggining was intense as I struggled to destroy all drake nests before they numbers become too high. However, after I killed all drakes and serpents, it still took several turns to win because humans (i.e. Konrad) move so slooowly in water. This was annoying, but I think it's unavoidable given the scenario's premise.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
  • The chief Drake doesn't do anything, he just sits and says "Grrr" when killed. I understand that if he was more aggressive or could recruit it would make the scenario much harder, so I don't know how to make him more interesting. :hmm:
  • In 1.10 the drake respawn points are villages, but still have the tent graphic on them. This looks bad.
  • I think that Warven should be lieutnant (level 2) because you don't have any level 0 units (making leadership 1 useless) and there aren't many scenarios left, leaving not much space to level Warven up
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Honestly, I abuse save/load shamelessly (and even then I didn't beat this on 1.4.7 :oops: ), so I was even able to kill the level 4 drake this way (out of boredom as Konrad was nowhere near the exit after I killed everybody else). However, I found the serpents to be harder enemies than drakes .
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I think that the Drakes spawning event is well commented, but the moveto events have no comments (I guess it's because they're easy to understand for anybody with experince with WML).

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TheScribe
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by TheScribe » June 18th, 2012, 1:12 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 (for being on easy, that is)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Quite
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The constant spawning of level two drakes.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.

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revolting_peasant
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by revolting_peasant » July 17th, 2012, 8:18 pm

I found the corrected scenario objectives not clear enough:
Reach the cave
It doesn't say that Konrad must reach the cave (or maybe some other main character; I didn't try anyone else). You might assume it can be a merman or gryphon, just like with the eastern edge of the level. It's actually kind of misleading the way it is now.

Also, the level has been made too easy in my opinion (was playing on Medium).

Finally, the Draugs usually don't attack! That means you can just hang around them, healer next to you, and take swings gaining lots of Kill XP for people. It's quite easy to get the Sergeant all the way up to Grand Marshall with some storm trident mermen and a priestess.

Also, I'm pondering whether it's a better idea to take this route and get Mr. Grand Marshall, or get Li'sar the void armor.

devavrata
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by devavrata » October 7th, 2012, 12:20 am

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy/Medium/Hard
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6 - Not so difficult. The walkthrough text is so much scaring about this scenario that when I actually played it, it seemed a piece of cake to me.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objectives change as you progress, but they are clear.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Yes, it is clear, and has also some interest. The initial exchange about the Draconians being hostile because of their previous meeting with human forces loyal to Asheviere, the exchange between the main characters when the sargent is found is interesting as well.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
With gryphons, it is easy. Gryphons, and some mermen too. If you are foolish enough to try this scenario without gryphons, I suppose that it can get to be very challenging. I solved it on hard with just three gryphons and lots of mermen (I had them available to recall, so I felt I had to). The Draconians are not too hard a challenge. They spawn from their nests, yes - but only if at the start of their turn the nest is empty, which only happens if that nests Drake left it to attack you on the previous turn, which only happens if you came close to it. It is not as if all the nests were spawning drakes every turn and then having those drakes go for you. You pretty much can easily destroy the nests one by one.

The cursed swamp is unplayable, it could be supressed altogether and no one would miss it.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
-
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
-
Content Feedback wrote:(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
-

monochromatic
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by monochromatic » December 19th, 2013, 1:27 am

I recently played through the entire campaign on the hardest difficulty with Elvish Scouts+recalls only on 1.11.7. I don't feel like writing a post for each scenario, so I'll only write on a few that I think might require some more balancing.

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.11.7, Champion (Challenging), 801 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. This scenario is much too easy. Even without fresh mermen recruits, the loyal recalled mermen from the Bay of Pearls are far enough to finish the scenario.
According to the statistics, I recalled 10 units, recruited 2 (two scouts to act as fodder in case), lost 1 (one of the two scouts), advanced 8 and killed 28.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough. I didn't find the cave the first time, but only because I was not paying attention. Also, the objectives should specify that Konrad should enter the cave.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Rather arbitrary. No explanation was given about the human raiding party, and why they were there. The drakes seemed hot-headed, but not realistically enough that I would believe it.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None. My troops were on constant 60% terrain, while the enemy were constantly 20-40%. Was there even a contest?

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Honestly? Not fun at all. Breather scenarios are great, but breather scenarios that are too easy are boring.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Reduce number of required turns to {40 35 30}, so the player does not dilly-dally. Drakes spawn faster, and higher levels (at least level two and up). Drake camps should be guarded by units from the clasher line. More Sky Drakes, so there's actually a possibility of your units dying. Also, there should be one unreachable camp, so drakes continues to spawn, even after the capture of all of the other camps. And finally, perhaps the drakes should require the assistance of true sea monsters (Sea Serpents, Cuttlefish and Nagas) in order to actually challenge the player with killing units.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I reloaded approximately five turns back after all the enemies were defeated, when I stupidly could not find the cave entrance and did not want to waste my early finish bonus (I ended up finishing turn 28).

Linthar
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by Linthar » July 9th, 2014, 11:02 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium Difficulty 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
First I really didn't think much of it at the time, but I'm a bit puzzled what the earlier soldiers from Wesnoth were trying to do. The previous scenario made it sound like we were in the middle of nowhere. So why were the soldiers trekking deep into the middle of nowhere, to traverse a perilous river with a evil reputation. I know the home of the elves is too the east, as that is where we were trying to get, but later scenarios make it seem like there is a safer path from said kingdom to the kingdom of Wesnoth, so why didn't the soldiers use said path instead of this ridiculously perilous one that doesn't even turn out to work, due to the waterfall.

Secondly this branch is missing the very important scene that the other two branches have where Li'sar explains she is aware of the evils her mother has committed. That one scene is rather important to making her character, and her interactions with the other characters make sense, so it really should not be missable in any branch.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The only challenge is that the scenario took me outside of my comfort zone using mainly merman units I had only used twice before, and fighting drakes, units I had never fought before. But the drakes are just not numerous enough to pose a real threat, and the time limit is extremely generous.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4. Its an interesting change of pace, but its too easy, and lasts too long for how easy it is.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The scenario should be a bit harder then it is. Looking at a few of the earlier comments it seems this scenario was once extremely difficult, but whatever fixes were made went too far in the other direction.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
There were no events that forced me to reload while playing seriously. I did ignore the warnings and went to see what happens when you try to enter the swamp to the south, but I did that with every expectation that I would be reloading as soon as I found out, and it was just idle curiosity.

Telcontar
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by Telcontar » December 10th, 2014, 8:06 am

I played this scenario under 1.10.2 (mobile version). This scenario used to be an insane challenge on the hardest difficulty, but now it is so easy that you can just walk through.

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hardest, 1.10.2


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Not 100 % clear but I knew this scenario from earlier plays. It is not fully clear that Konrad has to reach the final goal, because it was also not clear that a flying unit needs to reach the waterfalls.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This used to be a massive easter-egg like challenge, where you basically had to build up your army during the entire campaign just to be able to have a chance.
That's probably too hard for a campaign designed to be easy.
However, now there is no challenge whatsoever. You can just walk through and slaughter the drakes as you move.
(Granted, I had many Shydes/Sylphs and loyal Mermen because I planned for this throughout the campaign.)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1
Way too easy now, just boring and disappointing.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More drakes again; not as many as in old versions, but at least enough to make it worth playing.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Was tempted to use next_level in the console because it was so easy, but I was using the mobile version so there was no console. ;-)

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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by SigurdFireDragon » March 29th, 2016, 10:55 pm

Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 618 gold

Of the three options for #19, I liked this one the best.

Scenario Strategy: Deployed all my loyal merfolk, recruited a mermaid initiate and merman hunter to level to a siren & javelineer to complete my merfolk lineup. Supported by 2 gryphons and the elvish angels.

I could have farmed better, but did it well enough anyway.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by Caladbolg » April 1st, 2016, 6:56 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5, medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. I can't say that it was hard but there was enough pressure for me not to consider it easy either. I remember that it used to be heavy as hell once, maybe even more so than The Valley of Death. It seems that in an effort to correct this the developers went a bit too far in the other direction. It was really too hard way back then but the difficulty was part of the flavor as this was the 'unconventional' route for players who wanted something more challenging. By making it this easy some of that flavor was lost I'm afraid. I finished this scenario with outrageous amount of gold and leveled a bunch of mermen. I also got a loyal unit. All in all, this scenario gives huge rewards for little effort making it vastly preferable to the other 2 routes.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Unclear. 'Make it to the end of the river'- who? Konrad or anyone? The same problem with 'Reach the cave'. Even more so because it is 'anyone' for the former and 'Konrad' for the latter. I knew what I had to do, having played it before, but new players would probably be confused and maybe waste a lot of turns trying to get Konrad to the waterfall or leaving him somewhere because they think that anyone can reach the caves for victory.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Mostly ok, but there were some problems again:
Spoiler:
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting enemy villages before they spawn too many enemies. Keeping my mermen alive because I brought out only 2 healers.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. I really like the concept but I think the execution could be much better. I love that we have Drakes, we seldom see those in campaigns.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1) Remove the undead. Seriously. If you want to have an explanation for why our merry fellowship can't go into the swamps, say that there's magic blocking the way. Maybe put a shroud that can't be removed. Or if you want an elegant solution, say that the scepter is reacting to the dark magic and that it could go berserk if you come too close to the swamps. After all, it is established that the scepter has a corrupting influence on people and being around powerful necromancy would surely trigger some sort of a response from it.
2) Make the scenario harder. Not as hard as it once was but significantly harder than it is. The disparity between difficulty and rewards is just too great. If you cut back on rewards, then you wouldn't have to ramp up the difficulty so much, but you'd still need to do it; it needs to live up to it's hype so it needs to be at least more difficult than the other routes.
3) You could reduce the rewards- by removing the undead, you remove infinite XP; you could also limit the amount of gold gained from tents or remove it completely.
4) That trident is practically useless. It seems that those things are common enough to be present on almost every water-based map. With the campaign nearing its end, you probably won't even use mermen much after this. And it's not really useful in this scenario as Drakes are resistant to fire. To be honest, I think that having a magic artifact really fits this level and that it should be removed from one of the previous scenarios that had it. I also think that it should do cold damage as it'd be more useful here and it seems to fit mermen more thematically (IMO). Having 1 lightning trident in either the bay of pearls or the ford of Abez and having one cold trident here would be the best I think.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Don't know enough to comment.

Remarks:
-starting gold: 631
-recruits(2): 2x Hunter
-recalls(8): Shyde, Gryph Rider, Priestess (loyal), Mer Warrior (loy), Netcaster (loy), 3x Mer Fighter (all loyal) (+ auto-recalled loyal Triton with trident)
Turns:
-turns taken: 19/50
-end: 1054 gold, 25/25 villages
-carryover: 756
-no losses, no reloads
-advancements(10): Gryph Rider->Gryph Master, Priestess->Diviner, Netcaster->Entangler,Warrior->Hoplite,2x Hunter->Spearman ,Spearman->Javelineer (not the trident one), 3x Fighter->Warrior
-XP: 2 Warriors and a Spearman at ~1/3
-dmg dealt: +4%
-dmg taken: -12%
Again, something was fishy with RNG but I don't know if this was intended or not or if it was just an anomaly. Aside from exposing my Netcaster on turn 6, I don't think I made any stupid moves.
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SBak
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by SBak » April 15th, 2016, 9:27 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.12 Medium.
Content Feedback wrote: (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6 for handling the terrain, 3 for handling the enemies.
Content Feedback wrote: (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not that clear. I got the part about the Drakes and killing them. Exiting the scenario was confusing.
Content Feedback wrote: (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Weird to say the least. Kalenz is around 500 years old, has known Delfador for years and even helped him years back (in DM) close the Portal of Doom. Now he's seriously got the hump over some Undead in a river? Then this Drake appears and despite having a seemingly intelligent conversation with them in English they discuss the Drake as a monster. The Drake leader claims to fight them and prevent them going further, but ends up sitting there on his keep like a lemon.
Content Feedback wrote: (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with the terrain and different movement points of different units.
Content Feedback wrote: (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. I tend not to like scenarios where negotiating the terrain requires more thinking than dealing with your enemies. But then my relying on Mermen and Gryphons didn't really help matters.
Content Feedback wrote: (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I would have put a path through the mountains in the north for the land based characters and made the Drakes much more aggressive. I understand it's difficult for the Wesnoth team when you can't use Drake Clashers but having aggressive Drakes targetting your human units would make for a more interesting scenario than what turns out to be a Mermen/Gryphon rush against pierce-vulnerable Drakes with human characters not fighting and playing catch up.
Content Feedback wrote: (8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
That defensive row of submerged Draugs which spawn new ones when you kill one to prevent you from entering the swamp. It's not nice when you complete the major achievement of killing a Draug with Mermen and Gryphons only to find that a new healthy Draug appears (if an Undead character can appear healthy, but you know what I mean) to make sushi out of your units.

613TheEvil
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by 613TheEvil » November 4th, 2017, 2:44 pm

Can someone tell me how can I access this scenario branch? I did not understand from reading the waklthrough etc. What should I do on the map with the orc/undead leader choice and the river, to be able to take this 3rd route?

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Poison
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by Poison » November 4th, 2017, 3:07 pm

613TheEvil wrote:Can someone tell me how can I access this scenario branch? I did not understand from reading the waklthrough etc. What should I do on the map with the orc/undead leader choice and the river, to be able to take this 3rd route?
Spoiler:

613TheEvil
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Re: Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria

Post by 613TheEvil » November 4th, 2017, 5:21 pm

Poison wrote:
613TheEvil wrote:Can someone tell me how can I access this scenario branch? I did not understand from reading the waklthrough etc. What should I do on the map with the orc/undead leader choice and the river, to be able to take this 3rd route?
Spoiler:

I actually did try this but my merman died before reaching it, well let's seel. I am actually having second thoughts about this, perhaps a fire sword is better than a loyal sergeant... Oh well.

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