Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

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ThisGameRocks
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Post by ThisGameRocks » February 5th, 2007, 3:04 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
At first it was difficult. After a "sudden enlightenment", I replayed the previous scenerio and required more golds. I started off with 400+ gold.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Not too clear.I only killed one leader(to the south) and the other 24 units with archer.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was okay. Not too good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Protecting the important character and my mage of light.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6/10

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
No comment

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TheChosenOne
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by TheChosenOne » February 12th, 2007, 5:05 pm

scott wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Easy, 1.1.x
2. I would rate it 6. My GKs and knights keep 'em horses at bay.
3. Rated...4. I thought 'leader' can be any leader. Only after a few reloads did I realise that the 'leader' that I should kill in order to get bonus is Lord Bayar.
4. 6. Not bad. Dialog is good and storyline is coming to the end.
5. It is very hard to keep my heroes alive when horsemen're everywhere. Especially when I do not have spearmen or guardsmen to guard them with.
6. 4. It is not fun when you have a 4 in 5 chance that your hero's gonna get killed by a charger.
7. Allow the recruitment of spearmen / guardsmen.
Numbers do not win a battle
---Konrad III
(A loyal member of the pro-loyalists)

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Fafnir
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Post by Fafnir » February 19th, 2007, 12:36 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium - version 1.2

I recalled 3 Griffons to catch houses and the 3 best horsemans to support the characters given but Konrad to kill the opponent in down right.
Then when done and the kill of the last green cavalrymen I recalled the dwarfs since they have the best defence.
I regrouped all them in the middle right. Then I placed a dwarf in a house ahead to lure.

When the 25th opponent was slain at turn 25 I get almost all the gold for the next stage, 1000.

Spigot
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test of the clans

Post by Spigot » March 31st, 2007, 8:51 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard 1.2.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
storyline's fine

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Coming up with a defensive strategy to counter lancers, while not leaving the main chars too vulnerable, and not wasting too much gold

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
This is my favorite scenario, a welcome break from the usual "march of destruction" type scenario. For improvement, I think the AI should be a bit smarter: during the night, far away units actually move away from me, even though they are in no danger. Also, the AI seems to be a little standoffish in attacking, coming in a trickle rather than an all out blitz. It should be more ruthless in attacking, at least during the daytime.
Nice scenario, there should be more defensive scenarios like these.

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santi
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Post by santi » April 2nd, 2007, 8:44 am

1) Hard, 1.2.2
2) 7-8, good interesting scenario, requiring some thought
But it also depends on your gold situation. I reinstated Mountain Pass and Valley of Statues, losing some gold and starting this level with some 200 gold. Of course by the start of next scenario I had some 1100 gold, which made it rather easy, though I did lose some high-level units
3) Perfectly(well, except that leaders you kill join you in the next scenario...)
4) ok
5) with the gold I had, it was clear that I would lose a fight with the full force of the clan. Luckily the AI does not play smart, namly mass all units west of the river and cross at full force. So the key is to pick many fights with small, isolated (3-4) enemy units to collect the 25 kills needed. Also, using Griffons and silver mages cleverly, grab village, draw enemy, flee to deep water, return/recapture villages, bring in silver mages/kill enemy unit if isolated
6) probably a 9
7) Do not change the AI! Also the 25 unit rule is good to prevent pure assasination strategies. I did kill Bayar, but had to make sure of killing at least 15 units before that, otherwise you get trapped and cannot protect Konrad, Delf, Lisar and Kalenz all at once when the full force of the clan corners you southwest and you are nowhere near the 25 unit limit

cph
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Post by cph » May 19th, 2007, 12:00 pm

1) Medium, 1.2.4
2) 3 to reach the stated objective; you have to be doing something badly wrong to fail to reach 25 kills. Doing it without losing too many units & taking the last chance to level up some knights, that is a bit harder.
3) Clear
4) I got the idea that these were independent clans/warlords, but I felt the dialog didn't tightly define what the fight was about - the level may be an arbitrary test of strength, but the dialog need not portray it that way. The opening dialog could be tightened up around a "whether you be heir or not, we are lords in our own lands and will not let your army pass" storyline.
5) Starting with the minimum 100 gold first time, I was surprised to be able to beat the level, although the low starting gold meant I had no cannon fodder or reserves, and was using Li'sar and Kalenz to shield my knights. Not getting Kalenz killed & killing any units getting around the north end of the lake required more than a fair amount of good fortune.

Replaying the previous scenario I was able to enter with 280 gold, and bizarrely found the level harder; having a body of infantry stationed to the west of the start seemed to help the AI focus its troops better, and it showed much better strategy, keeping a loose mix of l2 bowman and knights hovering just at the edge of charge range, enough to deter me from attacking and allow them to accumulate more forces and begin infiltrating round behind my position. It takes too long to resupply the front line with cannon fodder, so I'm still ending up with Kalenz & Li'sar used to form the front rank in any advance, and had several reloads due to Kalenz dying.

6) 4 - It's a scrappy fight, albeit interesting at times.
7) I probably don't have the right strategy for this one yet, so no comment.

Tanis Half-Elven
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Post by Tanis Half-Elven » May 25th, 2007, 11:27 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.2.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5-ish

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
They should make it specific that you have to kill Lord Bayar for the bonus

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Dialog's fine, kinda unsure about the storyline though

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
~ Keeping my income above -2
~ Getting to Lord Bayar before my frag count reaches 25

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Either increase the frag count slightly, or make the AI slightly more defensive. Otherwise the Lord Bayar bonus would be near impossible to achieve.

joshudson
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Post by joshudson » October 18th, 2007, 4:17 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.3.8, Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5. Getting here with only 500 gold hurt a bit. My plan called for about 650, but it worked anyway.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I didn't read them. I already knew what they were.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Quite. As if he's going to survive the Scepter of Fire, grand knight or not.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Making sure nothing was exposed.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. I spent about half my time waiting for the AI to make a mistake.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Non level 1 units lost:
1 elvish sylph (that hurt)
1 elvish outrighter (that hurt a little bit only because it was loyal)
1 dwarvish thunderguard (that I could afford)
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Grand Marshal Aditya
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Post by Grand Marshal Aditya » October 20th, 2007, 4:11 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.3.8, Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

The objectives were quite simple...though I think a hint should be there that tells people that they should try to kill all leaders to get them later...

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It was fine but the fighting and strategy were more fun...

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Finding the right terrain for my army that is ridiculously weak on open plains against horsemen (lvl 3 elven army; lvl 3 dwarven army; lvl 3 human/ mermen army (which I used to harass the guy northwest))

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7; great! Just some minor tweaks...

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Well, the hints I mentioned above and more diversification of the enemy units (they just spammed horsemen with a couple of archers and destroyed them with my elven avengers and sharpshooters)
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Carnildo
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Carnildo » November 27th, 2007, 2:36 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.2.7, easy

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 for the objective of killing 25 units, 10 for the objective of killing all the leaders.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Mostly clear. There's no indication of the nature of the "(bonus)", and there's no indication that you get a partial bonus from killing only some of the leaders.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It doesn't really fit the progression of the narrative. You've just fought your way into Wesnoth, and you're facing these guys who aren't on the Queen's side, but aren't on your side, either.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
*Those (*&#%^ lancers. If the dice land right, a lancer can kill any single unit. They're easy enough to kill with arrows and fireballs, but that's not much help when one of them has just wiped out a paladin or an arch-mage.
*The map size. Keeping track of the action on such a huge map is hard, and the mini-map is too small to be useful -- units are represented by single pixels.
*Not killing 25 units before you can get to all the leaders. Horsemen and lancers are too dangerous to ignore, and too fast to run away from.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
There aren't that many ways to play it. If you just want to kill 25 units, I suppose you could fort up a bunch of dwarves on one of the hills and let them come at you, but other than that, you're pretty much stuck using high-level horse units, because nothing else is both fast enough to respond to changing situations and strong enough to reliably survive horsemen and lancers.

Another concern is the cash bonus. If you finish up as early as I did, you get an incredible amount of money, which pretty much lets you purchase your victory in the next scenario.

Miäs
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Miäs » April 24th, 2008, 10:46 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Medium, 1.4.1.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Only played it once so far. From the objectives I got the picture I wouldn't get any bonus if I didn't kill all the leaders. So I tried just that, but couldn't help killing 25 units before them. I was suprised I still got the money bonus. If the bonus of killing all the leaders is you get them to the next battle with you, it really doesn't look much like a good bargain. I finished at turn 25 and I was specifically trying to avoid the enemy. Still I got a huge pile of cash for the next battle. I'll probably end up replaying it and go for the 25 units and get even more cash.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

"If you're not for us you're against us." Come on. This Delfador dude is supposed to be some awesomely wise old mage. At the end of the battle it was also said that with their help my side would surely beat the queen, but all help I saw in the next scenario was the ability to recruit knights directly. I was expecting they'd be fighting with me there or something. Or occasionally give me a few knights as backup. (Maybe that happens at some point.)

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Not killing 25 units before the leaders.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7-8. The large map was fun and the objectives are nice.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make it clear that any leader you defeat you get to the next battle. Also make it clear WHAT the bonus is you get for killing the leaders.

All in all, this can be a good map to level up some units because there are lots of level 2 knights around. Your leveled units are also easily killed in this map, though.

zyx
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by zyx » May 2nd, 2008, 11:14 pm

(1) Medium - 1.4.1
(2) 1
(3) Clear
(4) Clear and interesting
(5) No defeated units.
(6) 5
(7)

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Buddy Jimm
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Buddy Jimm » September 20th, 2008, 7:44 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Medium, 1.3.17

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6. Thank goodness for the inclusion of Dwarvish Guardsmen, as it has made a huge difference in this scenario. Finally, something to protect the gunners! The Void Armor was crucial in helping Li'Sar survive. Distraction scouts are a must for this map.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

A good improvement here.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

"A Lancer got crashed on Li'Sar's sword. People won't be late for work though, because the Grand Knight said, 'I'm sending in more Lancers!'"

Some things never change.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5. I know fighting horsemen in their element is supposed to be a challenge(boy, that sounds funny coming from Blackwater Port), but the game can end quickly if leader defense is even slightly lacking.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The map itself, I think, is about right.

Is it still possible to get all four leaders? I managed to do this ONCE, through a shameful round of save-loading and assassination. I don't see anything wrong with making this goal more realistic. I've -never- needed them in the final battle(the early finish bonus is worth more than even three ready-to-go Grand Knights), but it was cool having them along.
After death, the doctor.

Trucidation
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Trucidation » January 5th, 2009, 2:26 pm

scott wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.4.6
scott wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. It was a pain in the ass mostly if you tried to go for the "kill leaders" bonus (?). Mounted units move far and hit hard. Don't expect only a handful of recruits to die; most of them will buy it, up to and including your own leaders.
scott wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I wasn't too sure about the "bonus", and reading this thread shows that this is a common problem. Fix the dialog, it's not like the bonus is supposed to be some state secret. The campaign's nearly done ffs, leave the surprise twists to the cutscenes.
scott wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Dialog was ok, put me in just the right mood to stick it to the uppity clansfolk.
scott wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not killing too many units, dammit. I had to savescum heavily in order to get the bonus objective. The leader immediately below you (green) and the closest western one (blue) were fairly easy - in fact they were my first 2 kills. On the other hand, by that time purple and black had units salted all over the map, not to mention the survivors from blue and green who were too stupid to quit fighting even after you'd defeated their leaders. Grr.
scott wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. I didn't enjoy it much. Well, if it was only killing 25 units I guess I wouldn't be so frustrated. Just sit there and they'll come to you at a nice manageable trickle - as the other posters have pointed out, the AI isn't smart enough to send them against you in one huge tidal wave.

However, if you venture out to get at their leaders, you'll find out that the indecisive AI actually works to it's advantage: since it didn't send all the troops en masse at you, they'll be scattered all over the map, just enough to frustrate your own advance. After restarting 11 times and killing 25 units each time without getting anywhere near the black leader, let alone purple, I nearly put my fist through the monitor. Seriously. It doesn't help at all that the survivors of the leaders you already killed are still roaming around the map wild and free.
scott wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Actually it isn't hard at all if you're just planning to fulfill the primary objective (kill 25 units). Just camp there and they'll obligingly stick their necks out to you. The problem is when you venture forth to attempt the bonus objective of eliminating all four leaders. I don't see how it can be done without eating a whole lot of losses on your own side (because if you fight back, naturally you'll go over the 25 kill limit faster than you can say "wtf x-4 70% and all four missed?!?!").

Oh, and village-stealing distraction hit-and-run doesn't work here, horsemen are easily just as fast as gryphons except for the odd rough terrain tile or two.

- - -

After not getting anywhere close to the final two leaders skulking over in the west and southwest, I wised up and played a gryphon-spamming strategy. I bankrupted myself getting several flights of the buggers, while being careful to prepare some cheaper throwaway units to distract the wandering purple and black units. In this scenario the AI's inability to gather all it's units into a single massive host to obliterate you actually works to it's advantage: simply because the units are scattered all over the map, there's no way you yourself can mount a coherent rush either, unless you came with a lot of gold, enough to throw a lot of bodies to keep them from breaking up your army.

The green knight was easily killed, but his underlings remained to harass me for a couple of turns. It was extremely tempting to just commit genocide and wipe green off the map entirely, but the strict kill limit was enough to curb the impulse. Due to this, after you kill green and then blue (the leaders closest to you), the map will be filled with orphaned units running around taking potshots at your army.

Stealing villages was the best distraction. The enemy would cluster around the sacrificial units sent to blitz their villages, while I rushed the gryphons past them in an untidy line. It took great discipline not to murder the red-hp bar enemies. Purple leader was a right prick, recruiting right up to the moment my lads got stuck into him. I lost about a third of my forces here, and of the remainder most were maimed. I caught a lucky break though because the black leader lost his head when I swiped the nearby towns from him, and he rushed out to meet me. Even then it was pretty close - my gryphons ringed around him like vultures around a corpse, but still he and his troops managed to kill all except two before he fell. Total was 4 leaders, and 7 other units killed. I sustained quite a few more losses though, and burned through nearly all my gold. @!^$#%.

- - -

I thought the reward was the ability to recruit level 2 knights in the next scenario - from what the other posters are saying it seems like you just get the leaders to join you so I guess you can recruit the knights regardless. Pah. The leaders aren't worth the bother imho.

silent
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Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by silent » February 20th, 2009, 9:10 am

Oh the things I'd like to say about THIS scenario...

But I suppose the payout for killing the 25 units early (before turn 20) is well worth the pain

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.4.7
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. I hate lancers and knights, but I like dwarven guardsmen
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The AI makes it forcibly clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Annoying. I have better uses for my units than having them slaughtered by non-evil queen troops thanks
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The chance of instant loss if a leader is in lance range
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
:annoyed:
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Given that the scenario is supposed to occur in a hilly area, some more hills or other terrain changes would help a lot.

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