Scenario 20a: Home of the North Elves

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
Content Feedback
Battle for Wesnoth
Location: #wesnoth @ chat.freenode.net
Contact:

Scenario 20a: Home of the North Elves

Post by Content Feedback » March 8th, 2006, 10:08 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Mainline Campaigns: Scenario FeedbackDevelopment & Overall Feedback
User-made Add-ons: Feedback

pjr

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by pjr » March 24th, 2006, 5:07 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.0 Medium, 0.x and 1.1.2 Easy. Comments are based on 1.1.2.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It isn't clear how far into the forest Konrad needs to go.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
There's some confusion when Lis'ar comments on "trotting across the battlefield" when my forces are heading for the furthest north, as far from the battlefiled as possible.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
It doesn't seem to be possible to avoid orcs completely, and if one moves to a position where it exerts ZoC on Konrad, it isn't possible to reach the forest in time. It also isn't possible to distract the orcs with suicide units, since once they find the suicide units they're bound to be close enough to the central characters to attack them.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. This was never one of my favourites, but I liked it better in earlier versions. The removal of Fog of War in Easy means that I spend most of the time watching irrelevant battles in the south before making the move I'd have made anyway.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Perhaps there could be a signpost at the edge of the forest to make it clear where Konrad is supposed to be going. Fog of War would also help: as I inch my way through the mountains, I have little or no idea whether any orcs can see me. These two changes could be combined if FoW applied only from Turn 2 onwards (but I have no idea if that could be done in WML).

Skippy
Posts: 85
Joined: February 10th, 2006, 2:09 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by Skippy » March 24th, 2006, 10:14 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.1.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I have died very quickly three times now and not yet completed it. 8 so far.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A bit longwinded but nice enough

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Being overwhelmed by hordes of wolfriders (for example) that you can't see and not having enough units to protect key personel. In the last try Kalenz was killed by 4 wolfriders that I couldn't see. With 13 units maximum and 4 key personel it is impossible to fully protect them all. Also, I had no choice over three of the units - an outlaw, an assassin and a paladin, not the units I would have chosen. A paladin can't cross mountains either which dictates that I must leave him to die or walk right into the middle of the fighting - great.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 at the moment

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Well, compared to 1.0.2 the orcs come flooding out much more quickly and I have no idea how to avoid them while making any progress towards the right side of the map. I'd love to sacrifice units (even the paladin I am forced to recruit) to help my key personel to the end, but I haven't actually been given the choice. They just flood out of the fog - they may dislike the Wesnoth forces, but they dislike me more.

sparr
Posts: 209
Joined: March 6th, 2006, 5:02 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by sparr » March 28th, 2006, 4:43 am

(1) Medium, 1.1.2
(2) 6
(3) somewhat clear. the keep in the forest should be pointed out more
(4) the dialogue was somewhat annoying, and not always on target, with li'sar mentioning trotting across the field when im way off center
(5) learning where the AIs sent their units when i wasnt watching
(6) 6, because of the third party fights you get to see for the first time en masse
(7) more triggers for shorter individual dialogues giving advice on where to head
Last edited by sparr on March 28th, 2006, 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

williamager
Posts: 18
Joined: June 8th, 2006, 7:39 am

Post by williamager » June 22nd, 2006, 8:40 am

1) Medium, 1.1.5
2) 5 (11 to defeat all enemy leaders)
3) It isn't quite clear as to exactly where you need to be at the end of turns.
4) The dialog isn't that great. As others have noticed, Li'sar's dialog often is awkward, since players do different things. Konrad's disposable bit is also awkward, especially given the one turn limit on recruiting - a loss of any of my recruited troops would be a significant issue, as they are all lvl 3-4, with the exception of two lvl 2 Gryphons. Maybe some players recruit disposable units, but I've found it is possible to get by without losses (except for the two cheap units given to you).

Also, in my decapitation attempt, I noticed a few awkward issues. The two riders ride a really long way when you have scouts in the NW and SW, and there isn't any explanation as to why they aren't coming from the East. My 11 moves Gryphons also seem to trigger the human charge even when I really doubt any of the humans can see me.

5) Not encountering too many orcs too early. For attacking the leaders, getting past the very impressive guards.
6) 2. One gets across, without much time to fight, and then just has to sit around or carefully fight the enemy. The extremely short recruitment time isn't very fun either. I have 1200 gold here, and it is frustrating not being able to use it. I don't like having my strategy dictated to me by the characters. The long battles also get quite boring even in accelerated mode, especially now with the slower AI.
7) It would be nice if the camp was bigger, or more recruitment turns were given (or perhaps disband when Konrad leaves?). WIth normal recruitment and a longer time limit I think I could probably defeat both leaders.

Comments: I have done this a few times. The most recent time, I planned a teleporting decapitation attack, very effective in Snow Plains, on both leaders with four silver mages and two lvl 2 gryphons. The guards rather ruined that plan.

Arne Deprez

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by Arne Deprez » June 22nd, 2006, 12:11 pm

scott wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy 1.0, medium 1.1
scott wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4
scott wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very clear
scott wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
good
scott wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Stopping the humans
scott wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2, the map is too big and you have to wait too long. 5 in 1.1.0, because of the turquoise elves in the forrest (with a turquoise shield) :lol:
scott wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None

Dominikus
Posts: 15
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 1:39 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by Dominikus » June 28th, 2006, 1:54 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.1.5 on Medium (and many earlier versions, where it was a completey different scenario)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 - you can easily avoid nearly any conflict if you go straight
east along the river and than northeast into the forest.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very unclear - how far must I go into the forest?
which units are required to be in the forest?
After welcome by the elves and requested to help in the fight,
why am I loosing if I leave the forest again?

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
story line is ok, but why the fog? I have to wait for hours during the enemy turns, but don't even see what's going on. Or risk to lose my gryphons send out to see at least something of the fight.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
to overcome 5 boring turns waiting in the forest (each time I moved out some units they get killed or didn't made it back in time - I had to start over simply to do NOTHING AT ALL for five very very long enemy turns while seeing nearly nothing!!!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3 - Without the fog it would be fun to watch the battle,
but thats all, you can do nothing.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
First of all remove the fog, it is simply distracting because it takes away the only funny thing.
Second, simply let it end after reaching the forest. Waiting there would be bad enough, but holding me back because any action is simply contra productive is the worst.

scott
Posts: 5242
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by scott » June 28th, 2006, 6:35 pm

Dominikus wrote: (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very unclear - how far must I go into the forest?
which units are required to be in the forest?
After welcome by the elves and requested to help in the fight,
why am I loosing if I leave the forest again?
As soon as you touch a forest hex (and some non-forest hexes nearby) you have made it. Here is the WML that does it:

Code: Select all

			x=66-80,67-80,68-80,69-80,70-80,71-80,73-80,74-80
			y= 1- 8, 9-14,   15,16-17,18-20,   21,22-25,26-28
Thus, because the user is told only to go to the forest (vague), we have to make sure (with a slight margin) that any forest satisfies the requirement.
message= _ "Konrad, you have made it to the domain of the North Elves. Continue moving east and let the elves guard your rear."
Not good enough? Doesn't matter now, we have a string freeze.

I wanted the end to be more dangerous than an immediate victory once you make it there, but it is clear from play-testing that the enemy is rarely hot on your tail if Konrad can make it through the mess.

It has changed now so that the turn after you make it to the woods you win. This gives the enemy one last chance to kill you and doesn't make you wait forever. I have been mulling a long time now how to adjust this, and I think this solution would be a good compromise. Please help me test it once 1.1.8 or 1.2rc1 comes out.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.

Dominikus
Posts: 15
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 1:39 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by Dominikus » June 29th, 2006, 10:42 am

scott wrote: Not good enough? Doesn't matter now, we have a string freeze.

After a little review - yes. I don't know why I had other wordings in mind.
Has it changed in 1.1.7 ?
But it's ok now.
scott wrote: It has changed now so that the turn after you make it to the woods you win.
ok, this feels a lot better now. I still see no sense in the fog of war for this scenario, but it's not distracting anymore, since at the time you see nothing, it's over.
So I change to 6/10 for the fun factor :-)

scott
Posts: 5242
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by scott » June 29th, 2006, 10:55 am

Dominikus wrote:[ I still see no sense in the fog of war for this scenario,
The scenario would take forever showing all the combat. Wesnoth doesn't scale up too well to huge battles.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.

fyo
Posts: 29
Joined: September 7th, 2006, 9:56 am

Post by fyo » October 19th, 2006, 4:04 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium 1.1.11 (1.2rc1)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 - the easiest scenario yet!

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It's not clear how far into the forrest Konrad has to go. Rather, it's not clear (and quite the opposite of ALL the previous similar goals) that another turn has to pass once getting to the forrest.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Decent.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It needs to be much more difficult. I really don't understand why some here are giving it a high difficulty rating. The first time, I just ran straight through and wound up with a single unit killed (no reloads). For fun, I tried again, recalling throw-away units (a gryph, 2 horses and 2 scouts) instead of the good ones I did the first time. This time I went south-east first and then followed the river (walking to the north of the river). No units were lost. I barely encountered ANY resistance at all. One human knight harrassed me in the south (kept in check by two throw-away units, until the knight eventually killed himself) and one orcish crossbowman managed to get off a single round of attacks on my Grand Knight (auto-summoned).

For some reason, the humans are holding back by far most of their army. 11 swordsmen are arrayed to the west of their encampment, but they never move. I'm assuming that they're there to prevent the player from busting through that way, which is fine, but the result is that the humans barely send any units north to fight the orcs. This is why it's possible to follow the river and not get attacked. The obvious solution would be to start the human off with more units to send north.

The elves are WAY too powerful. They were basically wiping out the humans and seriously driving back the orcs. Why not limit the elves to the forrest? It's not their conflict, so it would make sense for them not to get in the middle of a battle.

Also, it's a bit confusing that the scouts you get along the way in the scenario are taken away again when you're within sight of the forrest (or wherever it is triggered).

cph
Posts: 129
Joined: May 12th, 2007, 4:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by cph » May 17th, 2007, 9:30 pm

1) Medium; 1.2.4
2) 3
3) Clear
4) Good
5) Not losing track of any mounted units; any unit left stationary for a turn is likely to die.
6) 5
7) -

nightcrawler
Posts: 99
Joined: September 17th, 2006, 3:59 pm
Location: the skies of atlantis

Post by nightcrawler » May 18th, 2007, 1:15 am

fyo wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It needs to be much more difficult. I really don't understand why some here are giving it a high difficulty rating. The first time, I just ran straight through and wound up with a single unit killed (no reloads). For fun, I tried again, recalling throw-away units (a gryph, 2 horses and 2 scouts) instead of the good ones I did the first time. This time I went south-east first and then followed the river (walking to the north of the river). No units were lost. I barely encountered ANY resistance at all. One human knight harrassed me in the south (kept in check by two throw-away units, until the knight eventually killed himself) and one orcish crossbowman managed to get off a single round of attacks on my Grand Knight (auto-summoned).

For some reason, the humans are holding back by far most of their army. 11 swordsmen are arrayed to the west of their encampment, but they never move. I'm assuming that they're there to prevent the player from busting through that way, which is fine, but the result is that the humans barely send any units north to fight the orcs. This is why it's possible to follow the river and not get attacked. The obvious solution would be to start the human off with more units to send north.

The elves are WAY too powerful. They were basically wiping out the humans and seriously driving back the orcs. Why not limit the elves to the forrest? It's not their conflict, so it would make sense for them not to get in the middle of a battle.

Also, it's a bit confusing that the scouts you get along the way in the scenario are taken away again when you're within sight of the forrest (or wherever it is triggered).
These are good observations. Basically, if those humans were allowed to move, each turn would take forever. Look at the WML - there are also a lot of units stationed near the Orc camp. Because your opportunity to recruit vanishes so early, the goal of the level becomes how to survive without losing too many human shields. There is a fine difference between strategically satisfying and frustratingly difficult.
"Then I'd prefer you refer to it as 'The Midlands'"

If I'm supposed to fight creeping biggerism, then why is it a game feature?

GekigangerIII
Posts: 5
Joined: January 24th, 2008, 12:02 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by GekigangerIII » February 22nd, 2008, 10:34 pm

(1) Medium, 1.16
(2) 1/10, way too easy.
(3) Very clear.
(4) Good.
(5) I found, as long as I move west every turn, the scenario is very easy.
(6) 2/10. Too easy.
(7) Cut way down on the number of elves. Widen the combat: instead of one big commander for each side, maybe three commanders, widely spaced, sending a few guys per turn to the front line.

SumnerH
Posts: 15
Joined: January 9th, 2008, 6:01 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Home of the North Elves

Post by SumnerH » April 8th, 2008, 6:57 pm

I'm following the advice to rank 10=hardest scenario in the campaign (Seige of Elsenfar), 1 = easiest (Elves Besieged)

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium, Wesnoth version 1.4
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) [1]
6, again it's much easier once you've figured out a strategy.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I liked it a lot.
(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
Finding a good path for Konrad to take (stay south early, cut far north later) to avoid the majority of enemy troops. I ran Konrad through it alone, leaving the original scout to grab some villages and the rest of the starting forces just sat where they started.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. Quite fun
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

Post Reply