[Historical] Orcish campaign

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How is this campaign ?

Too hard, I'm stuck!
0
No votes
Hard, but challenging
3
75%
Just as it ought
1
25%
Too easy, I already have 20 lvl3 trolls !
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 4

Loriel
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General Comments

Post by Loriel » March 27th, 2004, 1:24 pm

Campaign looks very good so far.

Following comments are based on version 0.5.1, played on version 0.7 of Wesnoth (on Linux), on "easy" level.

Installation was simple and trouble-free.

The problem mentioned earlier, of Kapou'e "disappearing" when attacking, is due to current state of the file units/Orcish_Ruler.cfg, where various (Konrad) images are commented out. My temporary solution was to convert those image filenames to orcish-ruler-attack1.png etc, uncomment them, and copy the basic orc ruler png to those filenames as a placeholder until I try to convert them to more appropriate pictures.

Based on my experience so far, difficulty may be a little too high - I can win on the "easy" level, but generally only after several attempts, so I suspect the higher difficulty levels might be too tough (at least for my level of skill), though I've not tried them yet.

One scenario that I found rather frustrating was the "Toward Mountains of Haag" where you need to keep Gruu alive in order to win, but don't control him, and the trolls tend to dash in like berserkers and die quickly. It may be worth retaining this, just as "something different", but another possibility would be to remove that as a victory condition, but for Gruu and troll involvement in future scenarios to depend on keeping him (and possibly his father) alive.

It also appears that the following scenario, "The Siege of Barag Gor", might have a similar problem - depending on how the AI plays the elves and orc defenders, the Orc Doctors could be left defenceless before you can get reinforcements there, or the Doctors can flee safely. This seems to happen in about half my attempts, and I'm not sure yet how much of it is luck in the choices the AIs make and how much (if any) it depends on my skill and choices.

As mentioned earlier in the forum, "Harbour" is the English spelling, whilst "Harbor" is the American (re "To the Harbour of Trigaz" scenario).

I'd support the earlier suggestion that Kapou'e should start at level 1, and advance to at least level 3, possibly 4 (depending how the higher level orc uits develop).

At present I don't see much point to the "Orcish doctors", except as a burden in each scenario (ie they must be kept alive). Is this the intention, or will they get useful capabilities (like heal/cure) and an advance scheme later?

There's also a number of places where the dialog is clumsy or contains errors. I realise English is not your first language, and I'm sure my own attempts in French would be far worse. I'll suggest some changes in separate posts later, as this one is getting rather long.

Loriel
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End of Peace - dialog

Post by Loriel » March 27th, 2004, 1:48 pm

message="Then, the battle begun."
Should probably be "began" (or "begins")

message="We are victorious this time, but humans are organizing themselves in a huge army. We have just defeated a vanguard, they are coming massively."
The "coming massively" is rather clumsy - I'd suggest perhaps something like
"..We have just defeated a vanguard, many more will follow."
or
"..We have just defeated a vanguard, great hordes will come later."

message="We must lead my people to a safe place and ask for assistance to the Great Council. Some of them leave in Barag Gor in the lands of the free tribes. We must leave, now !"
First "leave" should probably be "live".
"ask for assistance to the Great Council" doesn't work in English - perhaps
"ask the Great Council for assistance"
or
"ask for assistance from the Great Council"

message="But the free tribes are beyond the mountains of Haag. These moutains are infested of dwarves and wild trolls."
moutains -> mountains
and
"of" should probably be "with"

message="We have no choice, we shall pass. The trolls have been our allies in the past, maybe they can help us. Hurry up, we must leave now."

"we shall pass" is a little weak - perhaps "we need to get through".
Also probably "can" -> "will"

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turin
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Post by turin » March 27th, 2004, 2:53 pm

I know - orcish medicine man advanced to orcish priest doctor!
:D

really, this would be interesting, the orcish medicine man could heal, and the priest doctor could poison and cure. it would be very interesting to have more units for the orcs, and one that heals.
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benj
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Re: General Comments

Post by benj » March 30th, 2004, 12:48 pm

Loriel wrote:Based on my experience so far, difficulty may be a little too high - I can win on the "easy" level, but generally only after several attempts, so I suspect the higher difficulty levels might be too tough (at least for my level of skill), though I've not tried them yet.
Many thanks for your comments. :-D

You're not the only one that told me it is too difficult. I think I will lower Towards Mountains of Haag, The Siege of Barag Gor and To the Harbour of Tirigaz, which have been reported as the most difficult scenarios of the campaign.
Loriel wrote:One scenario that I found rather frustrating was the "Toward Mountains of Haag" where you need to keep Gruu alive in order to win, but don't control him, and the trolls tend to dash in like berserkers and die quickly. It may be worth retaining this, just as "something different", but another possibility would be to remove that as a victory condition, but for Gruu and troll involvement in future scenarios to depend on keeping him (and possibly his father) alive.
Yes, other scenarios depend on Grüü being alive, so this is a victory condition. In fact, I wanted to use AIs as allies in order to ease the job of the player. Also, I personnally love games with allied AIs. ;-) I just changed some parameters into the scenario so that trolls will be much more careful in next release. If it is not enough, I'll make Grüü controlled by human player, so that if you loose it, it is your fault. :P
Loriel wrote:It also appears that the following scenario, "The Siege of Barag Gor", might have a similar problem - depending on how the AI plays the elves and orc defenders, the Orc Doctors could be left defenceless before you can get reinforcements there, or the Doctors can flee safely. This seems to happen in about half my attempts, and I'm not sure yet how much of it is luck in the choices the AIs make and how much (if any) it depends on my skill and choices.
Hmmm, in my attemps, they can run away (yes, sometimes wounded) in 4/5 of times. But that's true, sometimes, you loose this scenario without it being your fault. OTOH, this can happen in the first three turns, so that I think this is acceptable because you don't loose too much gameplay.

Loriel wrote:As mentioned earlier in the forum, "Harbour" is the English spelling, whilst "Harbor" is the American (re "To the Harbour of Trigaz" scenario).
Althought I've been taught British English, I'll make the change. ;-)

Loriel wrote:I'd support the earlier suggestion that Kapou'e should start at level 1, and advance to at least level 3, possibly 4 (depending how the higher level orc uits develop).
I'll do that as soon as I can get some new graphics for him.

Loriel wrote:At present I don't see much point to the "Orcish doctors", except as a burden in each scenario (ie they must be kept alive). Is this the intention, or will they get useful capabilities (like heal/cure) and an advance scheme later?
My intention was indeed to create weak units that you have to escort. I changed them recently to give them long range drain power, but they are still weak. Also, perhaps I'll allow them to advance. But my intention is not to make orcish shamans (they was recently renamed) very powerful. Anyway, they will leave Kapou'e in scenario 8 or 10 and won't be present in second part of the campaign.

Loriel wrote:There's also a number of places where the dialog is clumsy or contains errors. I realise English is not your first language, and I'm sure my own attempts in French would be far worse. I'll suggest some changes in separate posts later, as this one is getting rather long.


Many thanks for all of your comments and suggestions, I will integrate them in next version. :-D

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Post by Dave » March 30th, 2004, 2:01 pm

I would like to comment that I don't have any problem with some campaigns being 'hard'.

David
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benj
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Map for the campaign

Post by benj » March 30th, 2004, 2:12 pm

For those interested, I made a new map for the campaign, which is to be included in next release. Comments are welcome : http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... php?t=1060

Loriel
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More comments

Post by Loriel » March 30th, 2004, 8:43 pm

Thanks for your reply to my earlier comments Benj.

I've now played to the end of the currently available scenarios (Silent Forest), and my view is much the same. It still seems relatively hard, specially in comparion with the Loyalist Campaign. This isn't necessarily "bad", and my own playing style obviously plays a part - I'm just bringing it up so you can amend the game, amend the description, or ignore, as you prefer.

A limited healing ability for the orc doctors would have been welcome in the "Desert of Death" scenario, as there's no (or very few) villages available to cure poison.

However,it also fits your comments about problems in the earlier scenarios - the poison problem rapidly becomes clear, and it's easy to restart with different units or tactics until you find a way that works.

My initial impression is that Desert of Death is going to drain cash (due to lack of villages), and make the next scenario (Silent Forest) rather challenging, but I'll keep trying until I find the right tactics there too.

I'll post separately again with suggested dialog changes for the later scenarios.

Nice map - the colour looks rather different from the main map (very light brown rather than yellow). Looks a little dark to me, particularly the frame and the mountains.

Loriel
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Joined: March 27th, 2004, 12:41 pm
Location: London UK

Dialog comments

Post by Loriel » March 30th, 2004, 9:27 pm

Black Flag:

message="Looks like they are to be under assault from pirates of the High Sea. We should help them."
Perhaps "Looks like they are facing attack ..."

message="Haha! Our plan is going well, let surround them on earth while our allies attack them from sea!"
Probably "earth" -> "land"

message="Finally you paid for all of what you did to my Orcs brothers!"
A bit clumsy, though we probably shouldn't expect perfect English from an orc.
I'm not sure what the "Orcs" at the end is supposed to be - perhaps "Orc" or "Orcish".

message="We had news from them, all of them fleed to the East, near the Mourned Hills. I think we should go for them as soon as possible and evacuate this city."
"fleed" -> "fled" (or "have fled")

message="But it is beyond the desert of Death, which is full of poisoneous giant scorpions and outlaws. And bypass it would take ages! Not to say after this desert, we'll have to cross the Swamp of Desolation, the Silent Forest then the Silent Battlefields!"
Probably "desert of Death" -> "Desert of Death".
"poisoneous" -> "poisonous"
Perhaps "And bypass it would take ages!" -> "And bypassing it would take ages!"
Perhaps "Not to say ..." -> "Not to mention ..."

Desert of Death

message="It's been two days since we entered this desert. It have never been so hot and we have nearly finised our food."
"It have ..." should probably either be "It has ..." or (more likely) "I have ..."
"finised"->"finished"

message="I've been told the best way to defeat them is to attack their eyes with sharp blades. But I hope too we won't pass them."
"pass" should perhaps be "meet" (or possibly "encounter")

message="Stay on our guards, this oasis is known to be the den of outlaws and desert pillagers."
Perhaps "Stay on your guard" or "Stay alert"
Also probably "a den" rather than "the den"

Silent Forest

message="It has not always been that silent. A lot of hunters from tribes used to hunt there and fish in the Bork river. But now, no one would enter there until forced."
"until" -> "unless"

message="Anyway, we need some rest, we are sufficiently armed to cope with a bunch of elvish poachers. If we ever meet some, I'd push them into the Bork river with great delight."
Probably "I'd" -> "I'll"

message="I don't think so, they must have fleed. Now this forest has been cleared from elves, we can have a rest and then continue our journey."
"fleed" -> "fled"
Probably "Now this forest has been cleared from elves, .." ->
"Now this forest has been cleared of elves, .."
or
"Now those <adjective of choice> elves have been cleared from this forest, .."

Ave
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Post by Ave » April 3rd, 2004, 9:33 pm

Shouldn't the doctors cure/heal?

The old orcish shaman (gork) is doubled, like Delfador. At least now i got 2 of them...

benj
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Post by benj » April 4th, 2004, 11:27 am

Ave wrote:Shouldn't the doctors cure/heal?

The old orcish shaman (gork) is doubled, like Delfador. At least now i got 2 of them...
I recently changed them and renamed to Orcish Shamans. Rather than healing, I prefered to give them a long range piercing weapon with drain power ... quite nasty :-)

I don't have any idea on why Gork is doubled ... I'll have a look at my code to see why.

Thanks for your feedback

Loriel
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Comments on dialog - Shan Taum

Post by Loriel » April 5th, 2004, 9:43 am

message="At least, here are the mourned hills! I hope everything will be OK."
Perhaps "At least" -> "At last"

message="Exasperated, Kapou'e launched a fratricide fight against Shan Taum the Smug."
"fratricide" is wrong - it's a noun.
"fratricidal" would work, but seems rather artificial.
Another alternative would be something like "Exasperated, Kapou'e launched an attack on his brother-Orc Shan Taum the Smug." (or perhaps fellow-Orc).

lynx
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Post by lynx » April 5th, 2004, 5:56 pm

I didn't have problems with keeping the troll family alive. They didn't move at all. :/

Nice campaign, btw, especially the map.

Loriel
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Suggestions for story

Post by Loriel » April 7th, 2004, 8:07 pm

story="Rahul I, King of Wesnoth, concluded peace with orcs in his 4th year of reign. He ended a 15 years war with Black Eye Karun, ruler of the orcs. Peace treaty defined which lands were devoted to orcs or humans. Years that followed peace were prosperous."

Suggest " ...peace with the orcs in the 4th year of his reign. ..."
and "The peace treaty defined which lands were to belong to humans, and which to orcs."
and "The following years were peaceful and prosperous."

story="In the thirteenth year of Howgarth III, tension began to rise between Orcish tribes and human northern earldoms. Famine lead humans to colonize some orcish lands and to push orcs to desolated hills."

"lead" -> "led"
probably "desolated" -> "desolate"
possibly "human northern earldoms" -> "northern human Earldoms"

story="Of course, this caused violent orcish riots as orcs systematically slaughtered colons and human villages that were on their lands. Then, earl Jean decided to definitively address the Orcish menace and conferred a small army to his son-in-law baron Albert.

"orcish" and "orc" seem clumsy so close together.
Perhaps something like : "This provoked a violent response from the orcs, who slaughtered human colonists and destroyed human villages within their lands. ...."
"earl" -> "Earl"
perhaps "Then Earl Jean decided to tackle the Orcish menace, appointing his son-in-law Baron Albert to lead a small army."

story="Baron Albert personally lead a small vanguard with mission to establish a bridgehead inside Orcish lands."

"lead" -> "lead"
probably "... with the mission ..."

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Post by Circon » April 7th, 2004, 8:13 pm

A tip for the Desert level...
If the scorpions are coming singly, blast them with the PDs. They take loads of damage from fire, so 2 PDs should kill one.
My mainline was the one being recommended *against*... Trolls. Regeneration cures poison, hehehe. Even with the 70% resistance, I still get an effective 7-2 with Troll Warriors. Not too shabby.

Loriel
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Post by Loriel » April 7th, 2004, 9:00 pm

Circon wrote:A tip for the Desert level...
If the scorpions are coming singly, blast them with the PDs. They take loads of damage from fire, so 2 PDs should kill one.
My mainline was the one being recommended *against*... Trolls. Regeneration cures poison, hehehe. Even with the 70% resistance, I still get an effective 7-2 with Troll Warriors. Not too shabby.
An interesting approach.

I developed a completely different one, following the advice more closely - use ranged attacks, from orc archers, crossbowmen or warlords.

The scorpion only uses its poison in response to a melee attack, so the problem is avoided (until Benj changes its characteristics, or Dave changes the AI ...).

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