Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Sire » September 15th, 2015, 4:44 pm

@ Turuk

Making the wolves prioritize Delfador and Konrad can be a solution, but here are some more ideas.
1: Simply raise the starting gold amount by 100 on Normal. (4 Wolf Riders, 3 Pillagers, or a combination)
2: Start the scenario with one or two pursuers already deployed (nearly the same effect as 1, but allows them to move one turn earlier).
3: Give the pursuers have bonus income to keep a steady steam of pursuers.
4: For each pursuer killed, "refund" or give more gold to that side (same as 3, but limited forces on the map at once)

As for tweaking other enemy forces, I think it is best to leave them as is. The imposing presence of a Tier 3 Troll will likely intimidate new players and they may not know how best to counter them efficiently and thus try to avoid them. I believe if there needs to be added pressure, it should be on the pursuers instead of the forces the player needs to break through (at least on Normal).

As for the Elvish Allies, they also seem good as they are. The allied Rangers help offset the intimidating factor of the Troll Warriors, and the allied Shamans do a good job of slowing down enemy units.

Like I have stated previously, in my eyes the scenario seems practically done. The only thing I can suggest is maybe making the pursuers a little more stronger. Of course, others may have different opinions, but for a starter campaign, it should be somewhat simplistic in nature.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 15th, 2015, 5:08 pm

Sire wrote:Making the wolves prioritize Delfador and Konrad can be a solution, but here are some more ideas.
Yup, I tried this but they get distracted with the elves sent south by Chantal before they can truly pressure Konrad. I'm working through your suggestions 1 by 1 to see which works best.
Sire wrote:As for tweaking other enemy forces, I think it is best to leave them as is. The imposing presence of a Tier 3 Troll will likely intimidate new players and they may not know how best to counter them efficiently and thus try to avoid them. I believe if there needs to be added pressure, it should be on the pursuers instead of the forces the player needs to break through (at least on Normal).
Noted, I will leave them alone.
Sire wrote:As for the Elvish Allies, they also seem good as they are. The allied Rangers help offset the intimidating factor of the Troll Warriors, and the allied Shamans do a good job of slowing down enemy units.
Okay, I will leave them alone as well. I still am not sure of the balance on hard, it might need a bit more gold.
Sire wrote:Like I have stated previously, in my eyes the scenario seems practically done. The only thing I can suggest is maybe making the pursuers a little more stronger. Of course, others may have different opinions, but for a starter campaign, it should be somewhat simplistic in nature.
Yes, it's about at that point. I have the intro and dialogue in an improved state, subject to feedback from a couple of parties. I just need to finish a route on the big map for Eldred's move south, and S1 may be complete.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Whiskeyjack » September 15th, 2015, 6:23 pm

I have only tested it on hard, but I think the scenario is way too easy. I think all orcish leaders need some more gold (green significantly more than the rest). Take a look at my replay, I did not load once and just went with the flow (even fought at night and placed Defaldor in the frontlines). Especially green needs more units. I am not sure how that would impact other strategies, but at the moment, going through Chantal´s camp is a freebie.

Alright, I have replayed it a couple more times and I think pink and blue are fine as is. I think green needs gold for ~2 more units. My posted replay was my best run so I guess I got somewhat lucky there.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 15th, 2015, 7:02 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote: I have only tested it on hard, but I think the scenario is way too easy. I think all orcish leaders need some more gold (green significantly more than the rest). Take a look at my replay, I did not load once and just went with the flow (even fought at night and placed Defaldor in the frontlines). Especially green needs more units. I am not sure how that would impact other strategies, but at the moment, going through Chantal´s camp is a freebie.
Noted, I will revisit it on hard to do some work on how it plays out. Out of all of them, hard should feel like the most like a "RUNNNNNNN" sort of scenario with an experienced player moving/expending his units to keep Konrad safe as he moves north.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Alright, I have replayed it a couple more times and I think pink and blue are fine as is. I think green needs gold for ~2 more units. My posted replay was my best run so I guess I got somewhat lucky there.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by zepko » September 15th, 2015, 7:18 pm

I played version 3 on intermediate difficulty. While the scenario is visually more interesting than the original one, I think it's also much easier. From the replay you can see that I could have easily defeated also the warlord on the right if I had played one more turn instead of ending it with Konrad, and I was able to upgrade three units (including Konrad himself).

In my opinion, at least the goblin needs some more gold... he only fought against Chantal's troops and never approached me, nor Chantal, he was almost defeated.

Then, as far as the orcs burning the forest, this is a nice variation. But I would recommend to note it in a message the first time it happens because this is not the normal Wesnoth behavior and a novice player probably does not know that. By the way, it looks a little awkward to have orcs that move all the way around an enemy to attack from the forest and then suddenly the forest disappears under them... and I think this also impacts the balancing because they have a lower defense with respect to what the AI was planning...
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 15th, 2015, 8:53 pm

Thanks for the feedback zepko!
zepko wrote:I played version 3 on intermediate difficulty. While the scenario is visually more interesting than the original one, I think it's also much easier. From the replay you can see that I could have easily defeated also the warlord on the right if I had played one more turn instead of ending it with Konrad, and I was able to upgrade three units (including Konrad himself).
I am trying to strike a balance between making this fun/challenging for veteran players while still keeping it simple and open enough for those new to Wesnoth. The warlord on the right might need to get a bit of gold as he loses units to ensure they player is given ample reason to head north. I will have to fiddle with an event for that.
zepko wrote:In my opinion, at least the goblin needs some more gold... he only fought against Chantal's troops and never approached me, nor Chantal, he was almost defeated.
He might need to be given a few starting units that race north, as noted by Sire.
zepko wrote:Then, as far as the orcs burning the forest, this is a nice variation. But I would recommend to note it in a message the first time it happens because this is not the normal Wesnoth behavior and a novice player probably does not know that. By the way, it looks a little awkward to have orcs that move all the way around an enemy to attack from the forest and then suddenly the forest disappears under them... and I think this also impacts the balancing because they have a lower defense with respect to what the AI was planning...
The new dialogue has a line that notes this, so they player will have some awareness. It does impact the balancing, but it's there more as a gameplay feature/ease of escape for Konrad then it is to actually help the enemy.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Paulomat4 » September 16th, 2015, 8:46 pm

Hey, finally had time to try this out as well. :)
I played on normal.

Generally:
I really like this scenario in it's current state, it's definitely an improvement. The map looks good, although I feel like there's a lot of unneeded space on the map south of the goblin rider. maybe remove that?
What I would like to see is a short line that the orcs are burning the forest wherever they move. I found that mechanic quite interesting and wanted to see that, but I didn't even notice it at the beginning.

balancing:
I found the scenario to be far too easy for normal. I normally don't play campaigns on hard and while I don't think i'm a bad player I wouldn't consider myself super good as well. The main thing is that Chantal could have defeated the western warlord alone if i had waited a few more turns. I believe I wouldn't even have had to fight once if i didn't want it. I feel like at least the the goblin rider should have more gold, the western orc could use some more as well. Maybe one lvl 2 unit more for him. Blue could use a lot more gold.

Keep up the good work and i'm thrilled to see what you'll do with other scenarios :D
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 16th, 2015, 9:19 pm

Paulomat4 wrote:Hey, finally had time to try this out as well.
I played on normal.
Thanks for giving it a shot!
Paulomat4 wrote:What I would like to see is a short line that the orcs are burning the forest wherever they move. I found that mechanic quite interesting and wanted to see that, but I didn't even notice it at the beginning.
The version currently out there does not have it, but my working copy has this in the dialogue for the orcs instead of their current phrases:

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker=Knafa-Tan
            message= _ "Kill all you encounter, and find the boy! The Queen wants him alive, but a corpse will do if he resists."
        [/message]

        [message]
            speaker=Maga-Knafa
            message= _ "We shall see how well they do without their trees to protect them. Bring the axes!"
Paulomat4 wrote:I found the scenario to be far too easy for normal. I normally don't play campaigns on hard and while I don't think i'm a bad player I wouldn't consider myself super good as well. The main thing is that Chantal could have defeated the western warlord alone if i had waited a few more turns. I believe I wouldn't even have had to fight once if i didn't want it. I feel like at least the the goblin rider should have more gold, the western orc could use some more as well. Maybe one lvl 2 unit more for him. Blue could use a lot more gold.
Thanks for the input, I will toy around with some of these ideas. I think easy is nailed down fairly well, but normal is currently a toss-up, depending on what the AI does. If it heads straight towards you, it makes it decently engaging, but if it goes too far east at first, it's easy for you to skirt them entirely. The hard balancing is a bit better, but still not quite there. I need to hammer it out a bit, I might slide the northwestern orc down and left a bit, but then remove some of the forest north of Chantal.

Current map with bottom chopped is below. Altered with a bit more open forest/moved orc is last.
Paulomat4 wrote:I really like this scenario in it's current state, it's definitely an improvement. The map looks good, although I feel like there's a lot of unneeded space on the map south of the goblin rider. maybe remove that?
That's a good point, fixed.
NewMap1.PNG
Altered:
NewMap2.PNG
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Paulomat4 » September 16th, 2015, 9:28 pm

The version currently out there does not have it, but my working copy has this in the dialogue for the orcs instead of their current phrases:
That's a good point, fixed.
Nice, that's what I had in mind! The altered version looks good!
normal is currently a toss-up, depending on what the AI does. If it heads straight towards you, it makes it decently engaging, but if it goes too far east at first, it's easy for you to skirt them entirely.
Maybe on medium at least let the goblin rider focus on you like in the hard setting? Or maybe with halved values? That should be enough with the altered map to make it more challenging.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by zepko » September 17th, 2015, 10:31 am

Maga-Knafa wrote:We shall see how well they do without their trees to protect them. Bring the axes!
This makes perfectly sense from a storyline viewpoint, and also adheres to the traditional image of orcs (orcs are bad, they burn, destroy, and so on). From a gameplay viewpoint, however, it is you, my dear Maga-Knafa, who are doing without trees to protect you. I (Konrad and elves) keep attacking from the forest against you, who are in the open terrain! This is to say that orcs need at least some increased gold and/or income to pose some sort of challenge in this scenario.

I mean, the AI is already a bad player in even conditions, but if we change the terrain defense after it has made its attack computations, then it does not stand a chance :)

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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Whiskeyjack » September 17th, 2015, 10:37 am

That´s why you go with level one elves vs. level 3 trolls ;)

The gold is just part of the balancing, I find the game mechanic to be a nice variation of usual Wesnoth gameplay.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 11:04 am

Paulomat4 wrote:Maybe on medium at least let the goblin rider focus on you like in the hard setting? Or maybe with halved values? That should be enough with the altered map to make it more challenging.
I tried this, but the target inclusion only tells him to move his units towards Konrad, not to the exclusion of everything else. So he's good for about 2 turns, and then he gets distracted by Chantal's elves and never makes it across the river until much later. I am still fiddling with it.
zepko wrote:This is to say that orcs need at least some increased gold and/or income to pose some sort of challenge in this scenario.
:hmm: That is where I am currently at, making normal and hard a bit more challenging.
Whiskeyjack wrote: The gold is just part of the balancing, I find the game mechanic to be a nice variation of usual Wesnoth gameplay.
Thanks! I am still attempting to figure this out, but I'll throw up a new version soon and see what the group thinks.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 3:08 pm

Okay, the next version of S1.

- Blue was still getting too distracted with Chantal's elves, so map was changed. Chantal no longer has a ford to the south, nor is there a path towards her keep.
- Gold balancing for normal & hard
- Green restricted to just level 1 units. With that change and increased gold, he actually starts to bog the player down a bit/make it more challenging. Level 2 units gave him too few to control the player.
- Elves given a bit more gold on hard.



The current state of S1 can be found at this Dropbox link. Instead of asking you to place individual files, just remove your current HttT folder and place this in its place at Wesnoth 1.12\data\campaigns.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by zepko » September 17th, 2015, 7:45 pm

I tried this 4th version on intermediate difficulty. This is way more challenging than the previous one. At times I felt really pressed, overall it has the feeling of a 'run or die' situation. I wonder if it is not excessively challenging for a supposedly easy campaign (and I also wonder how hard is hard now, I might give it a try).

I could win in my first attempt, without save-reloading, but I had too many losses and could save only little experience (and 0 XP to Konrad).

Again, wolves could not attack me, if not in the last turn, but they defeated Galdrad (who, in the meantime, had lost most of his troops fighting the warlord on the right).

I like that Chantal's troops cannot move south across the river. At first they looked a bit too far and out of the battle, but then they turned out to be useful. To make things easier, it could be possible to move the keep a few hexes north, maybe on the north shore of the little island where they stand. However this might make the scenario too easy.

A minor note: forest on hills is not destroyed by orcs (see for example hex (12,7) at turn 2), you might want to fix this.

Overall I like this version, it is hard enough to be fun and not too much to be frustrating (according to my intermediate skill), but i think it could result too difficult for an inexperienced player.
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Re: Heir to the Throne Update (Current Focus: S1)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 8:41 pm

zepko wrote: I tried this 4th version on intermediate difficulty. This is way more challenging than the previous one. At times I felt really pressed, overall it has the feeling of a 'run or die' situation. I wonder if it is not excessively challenging for a supposedly easy campaign (and I also wonder how hard is hard now, I might give it a try).
That's good to know, that at least it has the right feel now if maybe a bit too hard. I can always scale back green's gold a bit to ease up the pressure north, so the player can break through a turn sooner.
zepko wrote:Again, wolves could not attack me, if not in the last turn, but they defeated Galdrad (who, in the meantime, had lost most of his troops fighting the warlord on the right).
Did you at least feel like watching them come up, they were pressuring you as a player to keep pushing north? Even if they don't always reach the player, I want the player to be conscious that he has to run and push the northern orcs out of the way or be wolf food.
zepko wrote:A minor note: forest on hills is not destroyed by orcs (see for example hex (12,7) at turn 2), you might want to fix this.
Thanks! I will fix this.
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