[Historical] Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

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Dave
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[Historical] Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Dave »

I think Heir to the Throne needs a number of changes to make it more fun. Among other things, I think it's too hard, and too long at the moment.

Possible changes could be,

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.

Thoughts on these ideas?

David
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by scott »

Dave wrote: - give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
ok
Dave wrote: - add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
yes
Dave wrote: - make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
maybe - I would need to see what you had in mind
Dave wrote: - make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
I think this scenario is good as-is, as long as it's winnable without saveloading (it is). The orientation change could be good.
Dave wrote: - make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
- If it's supposed to be easy, you can put the forest back
- you can mix forest and hills
- the player is penalized for using good terrain at the edge of the road by ambushes
-- you can make random ambushes
-- get rid of them
-- have ambushes of just 1 or 2 enemies (ambushes become less challenging)
Dave wrote: - make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
That would probably be enough. I used to like the "protect me!" ambushes. Together that might make it appropriately harder.
Dave wrote: - remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
no opinion
Dave wrote: - greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.
I like this idea.

You also forgot that Dwarven Doors needs fixing (unless it has been changed recently -- I haven't played it in a while). I had an idea where the first half of the scenario is "slow", like it used to be. You recruit an army and engage the enemy armies. When someone gets to the dwarven doors and discovers they can't be used, wake up the sea monster, kills a leader, or gets close to the mines, the scenario gets "fast", like it is now (more gold mostly). As it is now, there is no way to win the scenario if you go to the doors first like you're supposed to, and it is trivial if you know to run to the mineshaft. The only other thing you would need with my proposal is a disincentive to run Konrad straight to the mines, like by placing some enemies in the way.
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Just wait until

Post by Shade »

Just wait until .8.10.... Muh ha ha :) [Actually keep ideas coming on this thread, I'm still 'gone', but when I get back I don't mind starting to WML some stuff up]
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Post by Mkgego »

I find all ideas are ok...
I would recommend also to make the last map the Castle from Asheviere more bigger... to look more like a "castle" instead of a normal outpost...(see siege castle--->bigger) ,its just my opinion...
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Porcupine »

Dave wrote:I think Heir to the Throne needs a number of changes to make it more fun. Among other things, I think it's too hard, and too long at the moment.
Yeah, it might be a but hard but I definatley don't think it's too long. In my opinoin, it is the perfect lenght.
Dave wrote:Possible changes could be,

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
Good idea
Dave wrote:- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
No comment.
Dave wrote:- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
More Variety, good idea. Another castle tile - in my opinion no. It is part of the stratagy of that screano where you can't recruit very fast. It's one of the challanges that make Bay of Pearls unique. Although an explanation explaining why you have so little caslte space might be nice.
Dave wrote:- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
I like the orientation idea, but otherwise I like Seige of Elensefar as it is.
Dave wrote:- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
I dissagree. I like Crossroads as it is. My stratagy for this Screano btw is to recruit an army as big as your gold allows and move out in tight formation over the mountains, springing all the ambushes and wiping them out. It's great for leveling up units.
Dave wrote:- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
I agree.
Dave wrote:- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
Again I dissagree. But Snow Plains could be made a bit more challanging and intresting.
Dave wrote:- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.
Again I have to dissagree. I haven't tried the new verson of 'Test of the Clans' but I found the way it was before boath challanging, intresting and fun.
Dave wrote:Thoughts on these ideas?

David
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Circon »

Dave wrote:I think Heir to the Throne needs a number of changes to make it more fun. Among other things, I think it's too hard, and too long at the moment.

Possible changes could be,

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
A bit too much, imo, but the principle is very sound.
Dave wrote:- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
Sure. Fits better with the orcs.
Dave wrote:- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
MORE CASTLE! YAY!
Dave wrote:- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
Sounds interesting
Dave wrote:- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
Would be nice.
Dave wrote:- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
Hmmm... passivle leader, yes
Dave wrote:- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
Aww, I like those!
Dave wrote:- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.

Thoughts on these ideas?

David
Yay. Konrad + 5 units against the 5 lords.

Sounds good
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Jussi »

Dave wrote:I think Heir to the Throne needs a number of changes to make it more fun. Among other things, I think it's too hard, and too long at the moment.

Possible changes could be,

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level

No comment. Haven't played the campain on easy for a long time.

- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians

They suit better with orcs. On the other hand playing against saurians is an interesting challenge.

- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.

Water strategy would be interesting.

- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast


- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios

You have to do it if you make Princess harder. I liked the original one with forests. I think that idea of elves ambushed by orcs isn't such stupid as it sounds. Elves are there marching towards orcish camp and they have to hurry up. So they can't bypass orcs far away but have to try to sneak between them. Then there is always a risk that a branch would break when an elf step into it.

- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack

Sounds good. Then you should probably add more villages so that you can get enough gold for Revenge without assasination.

- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.

I really liked snow plains. A good charge towards the sword (on second attempt) is fun.

I think Swamp of Dread should be removed or changed because it is boring. A choise must be made is one of the last gryphon + silver mages assasinations left so possible saving it would be a good thing

- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.

Haven't tried the level yet so can't comment.

Thoughts on these ideas?

David
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
Even in Elves Besieged? It's easy enough already, IMO.
- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
Sounds nasty. The Goblins are cheaper, give less experience, and are less vulnerable to magi.
- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
The castle I definitely agree with. The water is a good idea too, the sea fight is kind of boring at present.
- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
Good idea, it should make the map more coherent.
- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
It's quite easy at present, at least in Easy mode. (and that's easy in comparison with other 'easy' scenarios.)
- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
I've never been able to get her to do this, but yeah, she shouldn't. Hardly proper behavior for the queen's "most able commander".
- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
Bye bye flaming sword :cry: or are you going to re-insert it somewhere else? Either way, good riddance to the boring scenarios.
- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.
Good idea...
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by ott »

Dave wrote:- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
Good idea.
- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
No opinion.
- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea.
Would be a nice touch.
Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
This doesn't seem necessary. If this change is made, the turn limits may have to be looked at again.
- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
All good.
- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
I'd never have guessed. It always seemed fairly tough, from 0.8 onwards, but then again the following scenario was always easier than I expected.
- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
Fine.
- remove 'A Choice Must be Made', 'Snow Plains', and 'Swamp of Dread'. Play can go straight from Sceptre of Fire to Home of the North Elves. The scenarios in between aren't very interesting imho, and stretch the game on unnecessarily.
Sounds reasonable, though the Flaming Sword then needs to be relocated.
- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.
Interesting idea, though it sounds a bit similar to the duel in Eastern Invasion.
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Post by Burnsaber »

Add some of the new mermen and nagas to BoP. They could increase the amount of stradegic depth incredibly.
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Post by MadMax »

Burnsaber wrote:Add some of the new mermen and nagas to BoP. They could increase the amount of stradegic depth incredibly.
Very good idea.
ott wrote:Sounds reasonable, though the Flaming Sword then needs to be relocated.
I say dump the flaming sword altogether.
Elvish Pillager wrote:Good idea, it should make the map more coherent.
How about if you accept the thieves, that some of them (randomly selected) turn traitor at a certain turn. Also, I remember reading an idea about having the ability to select spearmen too, and that would be a good idea. However, the spearmen would not be recruitable later, but recallable.
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Post by santi »

Dave wrote:
- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
Ok, and maybe give a few more turns to finish this and a bonus(such like
Chantal and Galrad joining you) if you beat all enemies?
- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
I always prefered it this way(makes it easier to level horsemen), but it is also ok as it is.
- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
Absolutely another tile. Not sure at what variery means. Maybe more villages/cages?
- make the map for the Siege of Elensefar a little more interesting; it's kinda boring at the moment. Also possibly change the orientation of the map, and make the player come from the south-east if they chose the land route, and the south-west if they chose the sea route. Make Elensefar on the coast
I think it's interesting as it is
- make crossroads alot easier. It was always meant to be an 'easy/building' scenario between the hard scenarios of Elensefar and the two Princess scenarios
I thought it was ok before it was changed(never understood why it was changed in the first place). But, you should have to kill both enemy leaders to win.
- make Princess of Wesnoth harder. Stop Li'sar madly running out of her castle to attack
ok, assuming the player comes out of CRossroads with more gold

- greatly abbreviate 'Test of the Clans'. Make it something like a challenge where Konrad must choose his best 5 units to face 5 units from the Clans, instead of this monotonous, huge blood-bath of a battle.
No. One way or another one needs to protect the best units(remember
Delf, Krad, Lisar and Kalenz cannot die, as unlike EI this is NOT the final scenario, so you only have room for one more expendable unit. Then it all depends on where the battle will take place(on grass you have no real chance against grand knights unless the AI plays dumm-just like it does in EI). Plus the current theme rhymes well with TROW's "honorable death" thing/
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by PDF »

Dave wrote:I think Heir to the Throne needs a number of changes to make it more fun. Among other things, I think it's too hard, and too long at the moment.

Possible changes could be,

- give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
- add goblins on Isle of Anduin, instead of Saurians
- make more variety in shallow and deep water at the Bay of Pearls, allowing for more strategy in the war at sea. Add another castle tile to allow the player to deploy their forces quicker.
...

David
I've cut after BoP, because I've still to get past it ! (in fact I did get past but was mauled on Isle of Damned so started again...) :?
Here's my thought for the starting scenarios
- Yes, it's quite hard - except Elves Besieged, but even this one has to be played carefully to gain max XP, running to the exit flag wins the scenario but will put you in difficulty later !
- 200 gold at start on easy : not really necessary IMHO. At start it looks ok to have a small 6-unit army and try to level them
- Goblins instead of Saurians ; yes, the current skirmishers are a pain , they are very dangerous for a beginner due to their ability to ignore ZoC
- BoP water : don't know...If you add more shallow water won't the trolls join the sea battle ? I fear that in this case the sea battle will be much harder, and then the land battle as well in turn..
- Another castle tile : rather agree. Currently the challenge is to hold waiting for a sufficient army to be levied. At Easy level it's not a big deal, but on Medium I had my army mainly slaughtered. Surely it'll help anyway.

I'm not very xped with the campaign anyway, so don't take that as expert advice ! :oops:
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Re: Some proposed changes to Heir to the Throne

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

Dave wrote:give the player at least 200 gold on 'easy' level
Sounds good. Then also increase AI forces a little so that there is less problem with 'experience starvation' for the player.
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Post by quartex »

"A choice must be made" and the next two scenarios are the only time that there is a split in the HttT campaign (I like the idea of being able to choose your battlefield), ahd I'd rather see these scenarios improved and made more interesting than deleted. The idea of being able to choose two paths is a good one, and those scenarios also allow you to build up your army after the hard fighting for the sceptre.

I don't like the idea of simplifying "test of the clans", I'm all for making it easier on "easy" difficulty, but it's one of the best scenarios in the campaign.

I'm glad to hear that you want to fix some of the strategic problems with Heir to the Throne, I'm sure by the end it will be much much better.
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