The South Guard

[nemchenk]

Hi zookeper,

Those are actually quite similar to some stuff I did at some point, but didn't end up using. More lately, I've also started another pass at creating new ones from some public domain photos I've collected, but I haven't finished a complete set yet and was kind of hoping that some of our proper artists would tackle the job instead. I think working on more on these would yield better results than terrain/scenery generation tools.

I just meant that the slides TSG has now are a bit, well... "home-made"? I don't mean to diss them, but I think they could be improved. I would release with the best we currently had, instead of waiting for the "perfect" ones to come along. "Release early, release often" and all that?

(BTW, the logo in the bottom corner of the ones I posted is there because I used the trial version of the software to generate them, by the way. If we decided to go ahead with the slides, I'd buy the full version and remove the logo, naturally!)

The photos you have look good to me, and the "oil painting" look would certainly fit in more with the core Wesnoth campaign slides. I like the forest the most. But, I like how the original slides showed the same scene in different seasons, thus illustrating the roll of time, the passing of the years the narrator talks about.

...

On a related note, I was going to look into re-doing images/story/bigmap.jpg with the tools in http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches ... aphy-tools -- would that be allright with you? The map TSG has now has very heavy artefacts from compression, and doesn't look quite like the main Wesnoth map anymore, so I thought it could use polishing up because it is one of the first things the player sees. We only get one chance to make a first impression!

Also, while redoing bigmap.jpg -- the river and fort from Born to the Banner aren't on it. Should I add them to the new version of the map?

Let me know what you think.

Really? I've always found it very useful to level him up even though he's pretty weak at lvl1. Maybe it'd be enough to put in some dialogue suggesting the player to try to feed him XP and/or lower the lvl1 XP requirement?

I would base him on a Cavalryman but with Horseman armour. Instead of giving him a non-First Striking spear at Lvl 1, give him his Mace now and let him learn to use a Lance later on. But certainly give him the 8 Move of other cavalry units, and the slightly higher hitpoints etc of mainline cavalry units:

Code: Select all

Deoran, current              Deoran, proposed, based on mainline Cavalryman
HP: 34                       HP: 38
MP: 6                        MP: 8
XP: 45                       XP: 40
6 - 3 melee (pierce)         6 - 3 melee (impact)

He would still be vulnerable, having the worse of the Cavalryman and Horseman armour and weapon, but at least he can be used as fast unit.

If you wanted to make gaining XP easier with him, why not make him Intelligent? He's supposed to be a promising young officer, right? I'm not sure if that is needed, though. I think if Deoran was based on the cavalry units from 1.6, that would be enough...?

[beetlenaut]

ue

I think if Deoran was based on the cavalry units from 1.6, that would be enough...?

I don't think changing him is necessary at all. It might make some sense to give him the intelligent trait on Easy, but if it's too difficult to level him up, you can play on Beginner, where he starts at level 2. Actually, when you've played a while longer, I think you'll be surprised at how easy a campaign this is. On Normal, you can have Deoran leveled up before the end of the first scenario. (For this reason, I don't agree with making Into the Deeps any easier either.)

Good job with the story art! I think they're good enough to go in, but I like the ones zookeeper posted better. Instead of just showing the seasons like the current slides, they show places. The map could definitely use some love. It should be big enough to show all the places you go in the story too. Fort Tahn and the Aethenwood are at the bottom of the main map on the title screen, so you can use what's already there for part of it.

[nemchenk]

Hi beetlenaut,

Good job with the story art!

Thanks! As I said, I like the way they show time passing, but I guess it's a matter of preference I like the way the weather works on them -- I think I got the season's down pretty well, if I do say so myself I was planning on putting smoke for Proven by the Sword, where Westin is on fire...

Actually, when you've played a while longer, I think you'll be surprised at how easy a campaign this is.

But of course. After all, this is meant to be a teaching campaign for new players to Wesnoth. It's not a terrible thing if the first scenario is a *bit* easy, even on Soldier difficulty, which is listed as "Normal" after all. But equally, if you replay the first couple of scenarios in TSG, I think you might be surprised at how easy they are to loose, as well.

I'm actually not a novice turn-based player I'm a huge fan of the old Panzer General games, and not a bad Battletech player, for example.

I'm going to post up one of my first playthroughs where, despite not making any major tactical mistakes, and using Sir Gerrick's leadership and terrain to my advantage, I lost on the fourth turn. Experienced player + Starter scenario + Normal difficulty => Fail on turn 4? Ouch
[EDIT: I just read my playthrough as I posted it, and actually it was more like turn 10 than 4. Dunno where the "4" came from -- memory is a funny thing, ain't it? ]

Now, there are a couple of places where I think the first few scenarios can be changed to make them easier yes, but mostly to make them more understandable and *playable.* I'll get to those changes shortly, but the Deoran discussion wasn't really about making the campaign easier. It was about making his unit have more use as a combat unit on lower levels, not just as a recruiter and Leader for Level 0 and Level 1 units.

Giving him more movement would, I think, lead to his use in finishing off enemy units, a classic cavalry tactic It would teach a novice player how to use cavalry. At Move 6, he moves no faster than a footman with the Quick trait, and isn't much use for that classic tactic.

Anyway, those were just my thoughts on the subject. I need to post up some of those play-throughs, so hopefully you and zookeper don't think I'm a complete newb whinging about a scenario which is a bit too hard for me!

The map could definitely use some love.

Cool, I'll sort it out. I might post a quick sketch first to see what you think. Shall I add another river and the River Fort to the map, perhaps without labelling the fort? Just put an "fort" symbol there, but no words?

Also, Westin... I agree with the poster who though it was a bit too similar to Wesnoth back in 2007, or was it 2006 I'd say it was worth renaming the city -- would you agree?

[Jozrael]

As a note, the 'normal' setting I would take to be a seasoned player of Wesnoth. Different TBS require different sets of skills to be experienced at, so while you're quite adept at the genre, I'd give yourself a bit before you begin asking to make the hardest difficulty setting available for a campaign easier. I would recommend dropping down a difficulty level; there is no shame in not playing a campaign at the hardest level (looking at YOU, northern rebirth), especially when you are learning the game.

[nemchenk]

Hi Jozrael,

Really, "Normal" for a seasoned player? On the "beginner" campaign? I guess I figured Normal would be, well, medium on a normal campaign, and easy on the beginner one, I guess. Hmm...

Anyway, if you like, you can read my (sort of long-winded, sorry!) post in the feedback thread now:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 55#p356455

Hope you enjoy it -- brew a cuppa or get a cold one before reading it all

[beetlenaut]

I think I got the season's down pretty well

I agree, but you can tell they were computer generated, which, especially on a fantasy game, is a bit wrong. Artists go for a more painted style.

...a classic cavalry tactic

I suppose you have a point there, and maybe he should start with 7. He does currently gain movement points each time he levels up though.

Cool, I'll sort it out. I might post a quick sketch first to see what you think. Shall I add another river and the River Fort to the map, perhaps without labelling the fort? Just put an "fort" symbol there, but no words?

You don't have to be that detailed. The map is used to show where Deoran traveled on his way to Westin. Most campaigns show the characters' travels on the same map for every scenario, so you can place them all in context. That would require a larger map that had all the battle locations on it. That's what I meant.

I'd say it was worth renaming the city -- would you agree?

I never thought it was a problem, but if you only change it a little I don't think anyone will mind.

[beetlenaut]

Really, "Normal" for a seasoned player? On the "beginner" campaign?

Normal may not be the best name (it was chosen to match "Normal" on HttT, which is medium on that campaign), but it is the hardest difficulty available. Everyone thinks they should be able to play on the hardest difficulties when they are beginning, but Wesnoth is designed to be really hard. It takes a lot of experience to make it through the hardest difficulties on most campaigns. It takes at least some to make it through the hardest on easy campaigns. The good news is that you can play for a long time. I'm still finding it challenging and enjoyable after about four years of playing.

[nemchenk]

Hi beetlenaut,

Normal may not be the best name (it was chosen to match "Normal" on HttT, which is medium on that campaign), but it is the hardest difficulty available.

I sympathise with the desire to keep Wesnoth playable for the veterans, but what about the new players who find every Wesnoth scenario beyond the tutorial to be far too challenging? Especially on a Beginners' scenario, which TSG says it is? It seems to me if the definition of the TSG "Soldier" difficulty is "challenging for a seasoned Wesnoth player", then surely its name should be "hard" or "difficult"?

However, this is all leading somewhat away from the point I was trying to make -- not necessarily "make TSG easier", but rather make it adhere to the tenants of the original writer: teach new players by simplifying the tactical problem.

A second major consideration for me is maintaining and enhancing the suspension of disbelief, the immersive nature of the campaign. For example, that's the reason I propose changing Moreth from a Peasant to a Spearman on "Soldier" -- Sir Gerrick had the weapons to outfit him in the first place, but never bothered? How cold and heart-less is that man?

I just feel that this discussion may be veering a little towards the "newbie is crying because the game is too hard! suck it up, newbie!" While that may be somewhat true, I don't think it's *entirely* true

[Turuk]

I sympathise with the desire to keep Wesnoth playable for the veterans, but what about the new players who find every Wesnoth scenario beyond the tutorial to be far too challenging? Especially on a Beginners' scenario, which TSG says it is? It seems to me if the definition of the TSG "Soldier" difficulty is "challenging for a seasoned Wesnoth player", then surely its name should be "hard" or "difficult"?

You may find those scenarios challenging because, as noted, you are playing at the hardest difficulty given. Granted, the syntax is not the best given that it is trying to match HttT, but TSG clearly labels a Beginner, Easy, and Normal setting. Beetlenaut's point is valid, as the hardest settings are in place so that veteran players can replay campaigns again as well, and making such a setting easier for you when there are already two easier settings you could play on does not make much sense. One would expect that you, as a beginner, would pick the Beginner difficulty.

Beginner, Easy, Hard might be a suitable change.

Also, as I saw you mentioned this in the feedback thread as well, having what you consider suitable experience in TBS games does not mean that you can dive into Wesnoth playing at the hardest setting. As others have pointed out, this game is not quite the same as other games so you cannot translate your skill directly into Wesnoth.

[nemchenk]

Hi Turuk,

Thank you for your feedback -- I'm getting a distinct sense that the advice from the veterans is for me to go and play the scenario on Easy or Trivial Well, lets forget for a moment what has been said about Normal difficulty being too hard for my limited "skillz" at Wesnoth. Lets concentrate instead on the story aspects:

1. Sir Gerrick happily sends out Moreth to defend villages armed with a hay-fork, all the time having a well-stocked armoury at his beck and call.
2. One of the player's units gives a valiant and merciful speech to Glasar, informing him that he should "flee while he can, or meet swift death." They then have to fall back to the fort instead, abandoning the village to its fate. Lets not forget here that the mission of the player at this point is to liberate and defend the villages.
3. Deoran is a young gifted cavalry commander, unfortunately unable to move any faster than a Quick footman, in fact moving slower than one of the enemy units.

I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, none of these make complete sense story-wise. If I am missing a story aspect here, I would be grateful if someone could explain it. PM me if you feel it's a spoiler.

TSG has such excellent atmosphere and writing, it seems a shame to me to have a few little imperfections spoil the player experience.

I'll go away for a while and play the rest of the campaign, making notes about what I thought at various points. I'll post my thoughts afterwards, perhaps for the benefit of the maintainers, perhaps just for whoever is out there. As I promised I shall sort out a new map as well, once I've played all the scenarios.

But, before I go, I just want to point out The Curse of Knowledge. Food for thought, I hope.


Yours Sincerely,

[Turuk]

I'm getting a distinct sense that the advice from the veterans is for me to go and play the scenario on Easy or Trivial Well, lets forget for a moment what has been said about Normal difficulty being too hard for my limited "skillz" at Wesnoth.

You seem to think that the veterans do not relate because of our skill level and that we are implying that despite what you are saying, we still feel that you have no skill at all. This means that you are missing the main point of what we are saying, which is that "skillz" in other TBS games does not automatically mean you will be good at Wesnoth. As you are unwilling to acknowledge that this might be the truth and think that we just refuse to listen, know that we have seen other new users state this exact issue multiple times before, where they do not understand why they cannot automatically jump into the game full speed at one of the hardest settings because they are familiar with TBS games. We are only trying to help, but if you see fit to think we are trying to put you down, there is not much that can be done.

As for your notations, zookeeper already mentioned that he can provide you with a list of areas that need work on the campaign as well as scenarios that may need tweaking, balancing, or new dialogue. Comparing your list against his might not be a bad place to start.

As for your link... okay? Are you saying that as you are proficient in this field of expertise, it is hard for you to effectively communicate your great ideas? The only other inference is that those of us who have replied, in our knowledge, cannot give you any straight answers to your questions, which we have.

[beetlenaut]

Beginner, Easy, Hard might be a suitable change.

Except that the hardest level is still not that difficult. ("Hard" on HttT is a lot harder.) Maybe "Medium" instead. No other campaign uses it, but TSG is a bit of a special case.

Sir Gerrick happily sends out Moreth to defend villages armed with a hay-fork, all the time having a well-stocked armoury at his beck and call.

It's only on Normal that he is a peasant. Perhaps there could be a change of dialog in that case: Instead of saying that only he and Gerrick survived, he could say that only Gerrick survived. In other words, on Normal, he was never part of the south guard, so you wouldn't expect him to have a weapon. He's just surprised farmer defending himself as well as he can.

One of the player's units gives a valiant and merciful speech to Glasar, informing him that he should "flee while he can, or meet swift death." They then have to fall back to the fort instead, abandoning the village to its fate.

Only if you take the village too early, or don't recruit soon enough. Still, nothing wrong with bravado. (And you can recruit on turn two if you send Moreth to investigate the fort.)

Deoran is a young gifted cavalry commander, unfortunately unable to move any faster than a Quick footman, in fact moving slower than one of the enemy units.

I don't see anything wrong with Deoran having 7 movement at level 1. He would probably not gain one at level 2 in that case.

[Turuk]

Except that the hardest level is still not that difficult. ("Hard" on HttT is a lot harder.) Maybe "Medium" instead. No other campaign uses it, but TSG is a bit of a special case.

I suggested hard to avoid that but you make a good point, as it would flow with the other difficulty settings used and be a better fit.

[nemchenk]

You seem to think that the veterans do not relate because of our skill level and that we are implying that despite what you are saying, we still feel that you have no skill at all. This means that you are missing the main point of what we are saying, which is that "skillz" in other TBS games does not automatically mean you will be good at Wesnoth.

Not at all -- please note I said "Wesnoth skillz", not "turn-based strategy skillz."

As for your link... okay? Are you saying that as you are proficient in this field of expertise, it is hard for you to effectively communicate your great ideas?

Clearly, I'm not communicating my ideas that well What I was saying is that the Curse of Knowledge means that once we know something, it is difficult for us to "unlearn" it and see through a beginner's eyes. For a teaching campaign, I think it's important for TSG to take note of the new player experience.

[Jozrael]

As an entirely separate note, what if we changed campaigns to have a uniform difficult setting of 'easy medium hard (nightmare)' and just ranked them based on difficulty as we're currently doing? Such as novice campaigns, intermediate, and advanced etc.

This would solve all the new players who are upset at not being able to perform at the 'normal' difficulty level on the easiest of campaigns when it is in fact that hardest one available.