[Historical] [1.7.x/1.8.x] Legend of Wesmere

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Jozrael
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Jozrael »

Imo it is a poor strategic choice to not have level 1/2 units in 90% of maps (some are really tight on recruit/turns that you need the maximum firepower from every hex, for this obviously you need full 3s). You're going to be losing units of every level, you need a constant stream of recruits at all stages of development (unless your skill at the campaign is well beyond the level you are playing at).

I also thought LoW was absolutely terrible when it came to tomato surprises: thank you VERY much to the OP and the developers for working on this.
Spoiler:

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

Jozrael wrote:Imo it is a poor strategic choice to not have level 1/2 units in 90% of maps (some are really tight on recruit/turns that you need the maximum firepower from every hex, for this obviously you need full 3s). You're going to be losing units of every level, you need a constant stream of recruits at all stages of development (unless your skill at the campaign is well beyond the level you are playing at).

I also thought LoW was absolutely terrible when it came to tomato surprises: thank you VERY much to the OP and the developers for working on this.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:

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Zerovirus
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Zerovirus »

Suggestion for the thing with Landar:
Spoiler:

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pauxlo
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by pauxlo »

fabi wrote:You just expect your heroes to be loyal.
Most loyal heroes in other mainline campaign are just not showing the third loyal trait but costing no upkeep.
Yes, and then I have to rename them (for the non-essential loyals) to "quasi-loyal 1", "quasi-loyal 2" ... to find them easier in my recall list.
(The loyal ones get renamed to "loyal 1", "loyal 2", ...)

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

joshudson wrote:AI: at the time I encountered that the previous scenario had so much XP that I only had 1 lvl 2 unit (all others had just levelled up).
Right, that would be the worst case scenario you run in. I will try to find a better filter that does catch this problem and try to balance.

Still the campaign can be played on, you get some fresh dwarves, at least 3 of them leveled.
Since newer versions of the campaign do implement Olurf as a persistent side it depends how well the ai (with a little help from the player)
managed to level and save his units.
The next few scenarios are doable with fresh recruited dwarves, they have the right terrain for that and it's a good idea to level them.
You will get the elves back later, maybe that should be mentioned explicitly by Kalenz somehow to not frustrate the player that much.

In Delfador's Memoirs the player looses his recruit list several times but somehow that campaign is loved for that feature.
And it's unpredictable there as well.

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

Zerovirus wrote:Suggestion for the thing with Landar:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

pauxlo wrote:
fabi wrote:You just expect your heroes to be loyal.
Most loyal heroes in other mainline campaign are just not showing the third loyal trait but costing no upkeep.
Yes, and then I have to rename them (for the non-essential loyals) to "quasi-loyal 1", "quasi-loyal 2" ... to find them easier in my recall list.
(The loyal ones get renamed to "loyal 1", "loyal 2", ...)
With "Heroes" I referred to units that are story important and loosing them therefore leads to a defeat.
Those are marked by an blue shield overlay symbol, coded by the {IS_HERO} and {MAKE_HERO} macros.
The heroes are never recallable and can't be renamed. If you see otherwise it's most likely a bug.

I guess you referred to normal units that are loyal without having the trait shown in the trait list?

Note that you can filter the recall list and using the keyword "loyal" will give you the expected result.
I guess for that reason it should be mandatory that every mainline campaign gives the loyal trait to this units.

Where have you spotted units that are loyal but can't be filtered by their loyal trait?
I will discuss it being added with the maintainer.

Wesnoth 1.7/1.8 does mark this units with an own overlay symbol, it looks like an bronze ring, but that doesn't help recalling them well.

LoW does always recall loyal units by default if they are available in the scenario.

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

A rough draw of the campaigns recall list management:
Spoiler:

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pauxlo
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by pauxlo »

fabi wrote:
pauxlo wrote: Yes, and then I have to rename them (for the non-essential loyals) to "quasi-loyal 1", "quasi-loyal 2" ... to find them easier in my recall list.
(The loyal ones get renamed to "loyal 1", "loyal 2", ...)
With "Heroes" I referred to units that are story important and loosing them therefore leads to a defeat.
Those are marked by an blue shield overlay symbol, coded by the {IS_HERO} and {MAKE_HERO} macros.
The heroes are never recallable and can't be renamed. If you see otherwise it's most likely a bug.

I guess you referred to normal units that are loyal without having the trait shown in the trait list?
Yes, sorry, should have made that clearer. (Also, I'm not really referring to the current state of the campaign - since I haven't played it for quite a time, my feedback would be useless.)
fabi wrote:Note that you can filter the recall list and using the keyword "loyal" will give you the expected result.
Nice.
fabi wrote:LoW does always recall loyal units by default if they are available in the scenario.
Even nicer.

AI
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by AI »

fabi wrote:
AI wrote:
Spoiler:
The WML in that scenario could use some cleaning though, there are 3 victory events.
That is part of my coding style.
I separate code into several events if they don't share the same concern.
Yes, but if they're not fired in the right order (someone moves some events around), the behaviour can change. (right now, the units are stolen and stored away *before* the end-convo)

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi »

AI wrote: Yes, but if they're not fired in the right order (someone moves some events around), the behaviour can change. (right now, the units are stolen and stored away *before* the end-convo)
Fixed, thank you :-)

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santi
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Re: Mainline Campaign: Legend of Wesmere 1.7/1.8

Post by santi »

One small remark on the love angle: My feeling is that this is not that different from TROW, where Haldric and Jessica-now Jessene have zero love talk, it's all business with some funny
angle perhaps put it. Even after they win, Haldric says something to the effect 'We have work to do' and Jessene says 'We?'
LOW is similar in spirit-they are fighting a war, btw and their schedule is kind of hectic. I think ESR did a great job with the love scene. Subtle, but clear. I doubt the users would really want something more. Maybe when Wesnoth is made a movie, the dialogues/scenes will be expanded....

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santi
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Re: Mainline Campaign: Legend of Wesmere 1.7/1.8

Post by santi »

is a clear signal of the prediliction of the author towards these units... I learnt that shydes and sylphs are great units by their own, why should I be "forced" to develop them just for narrative purposes?
Answer: The original idea is that shydes and sylphs are among the most loyal units and it rhymes with the fact that their leader is Kalenz's girlfriend....

Jozrael
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Re: Mainline Campaign: Legend of Wesmere 1.7/1.8

Post by Jozrael »

santi wrote:One small remark on the love angle: My feeling is that this is not that different from TROW, where Haldric and Jessica-now Jessene have zero love talk, it's all business with some funny
angle perhaps put it. Even after they win, Haldric says something to the effect 'We have work to do' and Jessene says 'We?'
LOW is similar in spirit-they are fighting a war, btw and their schedule is kind of hectic. I think ESR did a great job with the love scene. Subtle, but clear. I doubt the users would really want something more. Maybe when Wesnoth is made a movie, the dialogues/scenes will be expanded....
I'm not asking for LoW to become a love story. I'm not asking for long flowery speeches to be made.

I just wanted some hint(s) it was coming, xD.

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santi
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Re: Mainline Campaign: Legend of Wesmere 1.7/1.8

Post by santi »

I'm not asking for LoW to become a love story. I'm not asking for long flowery speeches to be made.

I just wanted some hint(s) it was coming, xD.
Why is a hint necessary? This is RPG, and you may be Kalenz(or any other character for that matter), rather busy right now trying to save the world. You may have glanced a Cleo, you may think she is a cute little fox, you may even think she likes you. Well, maybe for the first time she gives you a clear indication. What more is there? Real life also works this way for some people.I'm not objecting to love angles. I think spelling out the plot in advance is a minus, not a plus.

Same with the landar objections. The dwarfs could see him turning, Cleo could see it, Kalenz could not. It could be because this was such a close friend who had risked life and limb, it could be because he was too busy fighting the orcs and the potion or it could be because he
found Landar's suspicions towards humans and dwarfes not entirely unreasonable. The hints are there, the dialogs with the dwarfs and humans, Cleo's warning, the Saurian massacre... These are the facts and I do not think anything else than facts is needed. Not knowing in advance what will happen next is part of real, as well as Wesnoth life. Will Olurf show up? Will Crelanu help? Will Landar turn? Personally, having a hint to these effects would just annoy me as a player.

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