[Historical] [1.7.x/1.8.x] Legend of Wesmere

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fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi » February 8th, 2010, 2:22 am

Captain_Wrathbow wrote:My question about campaign-sized tomato surprises still hasn't been answered... *whistling emo*
Please list all the ones that have not been mentioned to be fixed in the development version.
Tomato surprises are just annoying to most kinds of players.

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi » February 8th, 2010, 2:24 am

Calza wrote:
AI wrote:1. Unless you get Anduilas killed, he should not leave your side and neither should any other loyal troops
Spoiler:
. If you lose him somewhere without getting him killed, that's a bug.

3. Surround your units with expendable elvish fighters. Even if there's a hole in the line, the AI will typically go for the easiest target.
Anduilas is left behind to defend the country and you get him back only some scenarios later... Your suggestion about the expendable targets is surely right, but it requires more gold to be implemented and it doesn't seem to me that I have gold to waste in this campaign :-\ Maybe I'm just too unexperienced, but I think this campaign should include some advices throughout its course, since it's long and presents some unpleasant surprises...
Please mention the places and type of advice you would like to see in the campaign.

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi » February 8th, 2010, 2:38 am

Zarel wrote:
AI wrote:1. Unless you get Anduilas killed, he should not leave your side and neither should any other loyal troops
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
That idea isn't bad. But should not be used from the beginning of the campaign on.
Spoiler:

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Zarel
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Zarel » February 8th, 2010, 4:35 am

fabi wrote:That idea isn't bad. But should not be used from the beginning of the campaign on.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Calza
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Calza » February 8th, 2010, 1:24 pm

fabi wrote:
Calza wrote: Anduilas is left behind to defend the country and you get him back only some scenarios later... Your suggestion about the expendable targets is surely right, but it requires more gold to be implemented and it doesn't seem to me that I have gold to waste in this campaign :-\ Maybe I'm just too unexperienced, but I think this campaign should include some advices throughout its course, since it's long and presents some unpleasant surprises...
Please mention the places and type of advice you would like to see in the campaign.
First of all, thank you for your detailed and effective replies. As to your requests, I will try to realize a quite detailed list of suggestions this evening, when I will have more time :wink:

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi » February 8th, 2010, 2:20 pm

Zarel wrote:
fabi wrote:That idea isn't bad. But should not be used from the beginning of the campaign on.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I don't see the need for a plot change just to give a barely visibly hint to the player.
Olurf has not been loyal for plot reasons since Wesnoth 0.8 times and I never even noticed that.
You just expect your heroes to be loyal.
Most loyal heroes in other mainline campaign are just not showing the third loyal trait but costing no upkeep.

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Dunno » February 8th, 2010, 3:58 pm

I guess I got pretty lucky in this campaign. After elves' last stand I lost my 3 elvish champions (they were worse than I thought anyway) and some others I don't remember. Yetis didn't have a chance to kill anyone, as soon as I saw them I kept all my troops in distance and when they came closer I encircled them with my ranged units (sharpshooters, shydes etc), stupid Yetis couldn't do anything. Poor gryphon attacked my berserker (in mountains!) and died. I really like this campaign, although I haven't won it yet (stupid me, I had to click those spoilers! I'd never think they were actual spoilers :augh: )
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

Calza
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Calza » February 8th, 2010, 6:59 pm

Ok, I read the thread more carefully and I can summarize the main points as follows:
- The unwanted "exile" of Anduilas is going to be fixed;
- "Breaking the siege" is going to become a faster map, where non-flying units will have a more important role;
- The carryover of gold after "The chief must die" is going to be raised to 100%;
- The griphons' attacks from the fog of war in "Cliffs of Thoria" are frustrating, but maybe that's a bearable annoyance, since the scenario is quite small;
- I read that later in the campaign
Spoiler:
. I think that's a really unpopular decision, but I didn't try this on my skin, so I leave other users to comment this.

I think these are the most important matters, but I see they are going to be fixed sooner or later and that's good. I'll give another try to "Legend of Wesmere" in 1.8...

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by CMaster » February 8th, 2010, 7:56 pm

On the matter of the alleged campaign sized tomato surprise:

I think, that the mistake is not so much not knowing what is to come and hence not recruiting/leveling the right units, it's more that many new players are completely unaware of the offensive potential of highly leveled shamans. It was actually this campaign that sensibilized me to the awesome power of a decent sized air force, especially since two sylphs + two shydes are not just four flying units, they are a self regenerating, slowing, magick savy, hard hitting and dodgy air force capable of taking down any high level unit at no risk.

Since I fought LoW the first time, I'm always trying to level shamans, and I'm trying to do it fast. It really changes the gameplay: For example I feared the valey of death in HttT before I started leveling shamans, now it's a piece of cake (and another oportunity to finish the education of some sorceresses...).

So really, if there is a tomato surprise, it is the advancement tree that turns a pure support/utility unit with absolutely mediocre fighting abilities into the most amazing heavy hitter ever seen, not the campain.
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by joshudson » February 8th, 2010, 8:19 pm

Yeah I stopped playing this one after it took away all my L3 units.

I'm almost annoyed enough to write a counter-history to remove LOW from the history books.
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AI
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by AI » February 8th, 2010, 8:45 pm

You get them back and
Spoiler:
.

If your play style is that dependant on a few level 3 units, you might be doing something wrong. (can't your level 2 units compensate? or don't you have enough of those?)

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by Calza » February 9th, 2010, 10:28 am

AI wrote:You get them back and
Spoiler:
.

If your play style is that dependant on a few level 3 units, you might be doing something wrong. (can't your level 2 units compensate? or don't you have enough of those?)
I think that
Spoiler:
is a clear signal of the prediliction of the author towards these units... I learnt that shydes and sylphs are great units by their own, why should I be "forced" to develop them just for narrative purposes?

AI
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by AI » February 9th, 2010, 4:40 pm

Spoiler:
The WML in that scenario could use some cleaning though, there are 3 victory events.

fabi
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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by fabi » February 9th, 2010, 5:36 pm

AI wrote:
Spoiler:
The WML in that scenario could use some cleaning though, there are 3 victory events.
That is part of my coding style.
I separate code into several events if they don't share the same concern.

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Re: I really dislike "Legend of Wesmere"...

Post by joshudson » February 9th, 2010, 8:20 pm

AI: at the time I encountered that the previous scenario had so much XP that I only had 1 lvl 2 unit (all others had just levelled up).
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