[Historical] [1.7.x/1.8.x] Legend of Wesmere

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[Historical] [1.7.x/1.8.x] Legend of Wesmere

Post by Development Team » September 18th, 2009, 9:33 pm

This is the main development thread for the mainline campaign Legend of Wesmere in Wesnoth 1.7.x and 1.8. The original first post for this thread follows.
Truper wrote:Been a while since I've posted anything on these forums, but everybody needs a wesbreak now and again. :)

Anyway, I've just downloaded the 1.7 branch for the 1st time, and started up a Legends of Wesmere on hard. It seems to me that scenario 2, Hostile Mountains, has been tranformed from a scenario winnable in about 1 in 4 tries by a very experienced player, to a virtually unwinnable scenario. In 1.6, it was possible to reach the troll keep and kill the great troll some of the time, although it was far more likely that the trolls would either run completely amok, or kill either Landar or Anduilas (even thought the loss of Anduilas is not a loss condition, losing him will make future scenarios unwinnable). Now that the troll keep has been moved further into the mountains, there is simply no way to reach it in time - and the other victory condition, moving Kalenz to the signpost, isn't even worth talking about.

The terrain on the map is diabolically tortuous, and its remarkably hard to kill level 2 and 3 trolls with a handful of level 1 elves. This scenario was somewhat too difficult as it was, but now winning seems out of the question.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by fabi » September 18th, 2009, 10:09 pm

Truper wrote:Been a while since I've posted anything on these forums, but everybody needs a wesbreak now and again. :)

Anyway, I've just downloaded the 1.7 branch for the 1st time, and started up a Legends of Wesmere on hard. It seems to me that scenario 2, Hostile Mountains, has been tranformed from a scenario winnable in about 1 in 4 tries by a very experienced player, to a virtually unwinnable scenario. In 1.6, it was possible to reach the troll keep and kill the great troll some of the time, although it was far more likely that the trolls would either run completely amok, or kill either Landar or Anduilas (even thought the loss of Anduilas is not a loss condition, losing him will make future scenarios unwinnable). Now that the troll keep has been moved further into the mountains, there is simply no way to reach it in time - and the other victory condition, moving Kalenz to the signpost, isn't even worth talking about.

The terrain on the map is diabolically tortuous, and its remarkably hard to kill level 2 and 3 trolls with a handful of level 1 elves. This scenario was somewhat too difficult as it was, but now winning seems out of the question.
After playtesting the change on Medium I found that it makes things easier for the player. Kalenz is now a quick unit which let's him reach the signpost more easily. I will try it on hard soon.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by lotsofphil » September 20th, 2009, 8:46 pm

Truper wrote:Been a while since I've posted anything on these forums, but everybody needs a wesbreak now and again. :)

Anyway, I've just downloaded the 1.7 branch for the 1st time, and started up a Legends of Wesmere on hard. It seems to me that scenario 2, Hostile Mountains, has been tranformed from a scenario winnable in about 1 in 4 tries by a very experienced player, to a virtually unwinnable scenario. In 1.6, it was possible to reach the troll keep and kill the great troll some of the time, although it was far more likely that the trolls would either run completely amok, or kill either Landar or Anduilas (even thought the loss of Anduilas is not a loss condition, losing him will make future scenarios unwinnable).
I've had trouble with this level before but my last time through I figured out a good way to lure the trolls onto the dwarves territory. (Sacrifice a unit in the river). This level is very, very tough without the dwarves helping. Are you getting help from the dwarves?

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Truper » September 20th, 2009, 9:48 pm

Yes. In fact, if you don't get help from the Dwarves, I'd say your chances of winning are exactly 0. ;)
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus."

Sure. But in that case, they had damned well better be called Venusians, and not Elves, Undead, or anything else.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by fabi » September 20th, 2009, 11:25 pm

Truper wrote:Yes. In fact, if you don't get help from the Dwarves, I'd say your chances of winning are exactly 0. ;)
You can even go right through the dwarf's land and win by reaching the signpost.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Truper » September 21st, 2009, 9:36 pm

What? And defy Kalenz's orders? ;)
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus."

Sure. But in that case, they had damned well better be called Venusians, and not Elves, Undead, or anything else.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by lotsofphil » September 22nd, 2009, 12:32 am

Truper if you post save and a replay I'll give it a shot.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Truper » September 22nd, 2009, 1:58 am

Sorry, I didn't keep a save.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus."

Sure. But in that case, they had damned well better be called Venusians, and not Elves, Undead, or anything else.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi » September 22nd, 2009, 6:33 am

You should have a couple of lv2 troops for level 2(at least on hard I usually have a couple of Rangers, Andulias or Kalenz and 1-2 lv2 shaman(sorceress).) But the key was grabbing the villages early with 2 scouts and sending fresh troops every round to fight in the forest areas; it was a bloodbath sure, but once the trolls are beaten there, the rest(i.e. killing the troll leader) was straightforward, whether the dwarves helped or not. But I have not played the current version-I understand there probably are major changes.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by fabi » September 22nd, 2009, 7:27 am

santi wrote:You should have a couple of lv2 troops for level 2(at least on hard I usually have a couple of Rangers, Andulias or Kalenz and 1-2 lv2 shaman(sorceress).) But the key was grabbing the villages early with 2 scouts and sending fresh troops every round to fight in the forest areas; it was a bloodbath sure, but once the trolls are beaten there, the rest(i.e. killing the troll leader) was straightforward, whether the dwarves helped or not. But I have not played the current version-I understand there probably are major changes.
  • Changes to LoW scenario 2
  • Kalenz is now a "quick" unit with 6MP. Through rough terrain that doubles his speed.
  • Olurf's side is now persistent. Every dwarf left is kept in the savefile for Olurf to recall in scenario 6. No idea if this should be communicated to the player in any way.
  • All villages on the right river side are under Olurf's control at scenario start.
  • All villages on the left river side are under Troll control (I Plan to reduce their villages a little).
  • The Keep of the troll moved a few hexes south inside the mountains. This will make the signpost a more attractive scenario goal for late players that run out of turns.
  • Both ways of finishing the scenario give the player early finish gold bonus.
  • Olurf's team and ai depends on difficult level.
    • EASY: Olurf belongs to the team of Kalenz which makes him an enemy for the dwarves. This enhances the chance that the trolls step on the land very much.
    • NORMAL and HARD: Olurf belongs to both teams which makes him neutral.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by lotsofphil » September 23rd, 2009, 1:39 pm

Is the final scenario, End of War, playable (properly) in 1.7.5? I played up to it and Landar is level 1 and (I think) he has some of my loyal units (Tameril-Ismeril). I tried downloading the latest .cfg files for this scenario from SVN and that didn't fix it. Then I tried downloading the .cfg for the previous scenario and beating it again (not from turn 1, though) and that didn't fix it.

So, given that I played the first 20 scenarios on 1.7.5, how do I play the last one as it is meant to be?

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by santi » September 25th, 2009, 12:41 pm

Some remarks on 1.7.5 (svn 38709):
-graphics are greatly improved(especially the villages) as well as the troll leader's final words
-the idea of moving the troll keep further into the mountains is a very interesting one. However, as may be seen from the replay, my experience was probably negative compared to the previous versions. Here is why:
1) Trolls are late in arriving to the battle ground. One of the most challenging aspects of this scenario IMHO
was the fact that you have to recruit sending fresh units to replenish those being lost and being as efficient as
possible with village-grabbing. As it is now, trolls arrive late and not in great numbers, so the battle is much easier and much less interesting(note this replay is on hard)
2) Perhaps because the trolls see a closer target, they cross early into dwarvish territory and as a result are annihilated by the dwarves-the elves do relatively very little
3) Objectively Rocklobbers may be a good choice because they can also retaliate against archers, but I always preferred it as more dramatic if the elves face lv3 troll warriors: You seem to be wasting your arrows on these seemingly invincible huge trolls and have to really perservere, take casualties, replenish the troops and fight smart to win.

As can be seen from the replay, not only was the largest part of the fighting done by the dwarves, but also
the challenge of finishing off the enemy leader in rough and inaccessible terrain was no challenge really because the faster dwarves basically did that with elves standing idle and watching the show. So I am not sure this interesting idea is working;
Attachments
LOW-Hostile_mountains_replay.gz
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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Truper » October 1st, 2009, 3:17 pm

Interestingly, when I play, I find that the trolls usually annihilate the dwarves, rather than the other way around. The dwarves often end up fighting from the water...

I also find that the trolls arriving late to the battle works against me. They refuse to approach the forested area above where the land widens out on the left hand side of the map, which means I have to go to them, which in turn means I have to fight them on a narrow front where they are much more mobile than I am, and its difficult to get enough elves on one troll to kill it.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus."

Sure. But in that case, they had damned well better be called Venusians, and not Elves, Undead, or anything else.

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by Anonymissimus » October 6th, 2009, 5:21 pm

small bug in 09_Bounty_hunters.cfg (1.6.4), this may not yet have been reported.
The following code

Code: Select all

        # these have been left behind to guard the Ka'lian
        [store_unit]
            variable=l3_selector_store
            kill=yes
            [filter]
                type=Elvish Marshal,Elvish Champion,Elvish Avenger,Elvish Sharpshooter
                [not]
                    id=Kalenz
                [/not]
                [not]
                    id=Landar
                [/not]
                [not]
                    id=Arkildur
                [/not]
                [not]
                    id=Tameril-Isimeril
                [/not]
                [not]
                    id=Laril
                [/not]
            [/filter]
        [/store_unit]

        [if]
            [variable]
                name=l3_selector_store.length
                numerical_equals=0
            [/variable]
            [then]
                [set_variable]
                    name=left_behind
                    value= _ "some experienced warriors"	# wmllint: ignore
                [/set_variable]
            [/then]
        [/if]

        {VARIABLE l3_length $l3_selector_store.length}
        {VARIABLE_OP l3_length add -1}
        {FOREACH l3_selector_store i}
            # for-case, what a great anti-pattern
            [switch]
                variable=i
                [case]
                    value=0
                    [set_variable]
                        name=left_behind
                        format=$l3_selector_store[$i].name
                    [/set_variable]
                [/case]
                [case]
                    value=$l3_length
                    [set_variable]
                        name=left_behind
                        format= _ "$left_behind and $l3_selector_store[$i].name"	# wmllint: ignore
                    [/set_variable]
                [/case]
                [else]
                    [set_variable]
                        name=left_behind
                        format= _ "$left_behind|, $l3_selector_store[$i].name"	# wmllint: ignore
                    [/set_variable]
                [/else]
            [/switch]
        {NEXT i}
        {CLEAR_VARIABLE l3_length}
seems not to work always correctly. In my case there's exactly one unit that matches that given unit filter (Anduilas, array length 1), resulting in a message "Anduilas and Anduilas" have been left behind. ;)
Interesting: It seems that, despite the fact that the first [case] had already matched, the follwing cases are also checked and possibly executed...
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign

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Re: Legend of Wesmere-Elvish(Kalenz) Campaign

Post by AI » October 6th, 2009, 8:24 pm

Indeed both cases 1 and 2 are executed, resulting in Anduilas and Anduilas.

Silene says this is the intended effect, so the solution would be to check for l3_length == 1 before entering the loop.

In fact, I'll go do that now.

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