[Historical] Make Heir to the Throne the default campaign?

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[Historical] Make Heir to the Throne the default campaign?

Post by Dave » May 1st, 2008, 4:37 am

I had a discussion with rusty about the campaigns in Wesnoth and how appealing they are to beginners. We feel that Heir to the Throne should be returned to being the top, default campaign listed when one chooses to start a campaign. Our rationale for this is as follows:

- Heir to the Throne is welcoming to beginners. It is easy on easy level. It introduces players to units slowly, and introduces them to game concepts slowly and steadily.
- It is a fun, exciting campaign. If a new user wants a tutorial they would click on tutorial. They want something they can play and have fun with, while learning at the same time.
- Heir to the Throne is higher quality (in my and rusty's opinions, but I'm sure many others would agree) than any of those listed above it.
- Heir to the Throne is the original and most canonical storyline in Wesnoth.

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Jozrael » May 1st, 2008, 4:43 am

Although I personally think AOI should be the default campaign referred to before HttT, simply because it is a great beginners campaign and preps you quite well for a generic understanding of HttT.

This being said...

HttT is a much better choice as the top campaign for all of your listed reasons. Just if the tutorial also mentioned AOI as a shorter starting campaign alternative, I think it'd be perfect.

HttT certainly should be first.

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by rusty » May 1st, 2008, 4:44 am

Definitely agreed, and not just because I cut my teeth on HttT. It serves as a gentle introduction, and would allow the tutorial to be shortened and focussed to "getting them to HttT, which will teach the rest as they go".

Rusty.

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Jozrael » May 1st, 2008, 5:54 am

I like the tutorial <.<

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by vicza » May 1st, 2008, 6:55 am

Jozrael wrote:HttT is a much better choice as the top campaign for all of your listed reasons.
I agree, and I'd also mention another advantage of this campaign: the player encounters during the campaign almost all existing units. It could be useful later.
Just if the tutorial also mentioned AOI as a shorter starting campaign alternative
I agree with this, too.


I'd also suggest, that Delfador advises should be continued. I mean in the 2nd scenario he explains about horsemen: "But horsemen are powerful in a different way. They have no long range attack, but can charge into combat, inflicting double normal damage, though taking double damage in return etc". In the 3rd scenario he says about mages: "Caution, young prince. It is very difficult to train inexperienced magi in combat. When they fight on the front lines of battle, you must protect magi with stronger units else the enemy will make short work of them."
He could say something like this in the next scenarios, too, as they meet new allies/enemies. E.g., in Elensefar he could talk about thieves:
Reglok: "Victory! The thieves of Elensefar will be in your service, my lord."
Konrad: "Well, right. But do I really need them? They are weak, even weaker than Elvish Fighters"
Delfador: "Don't underestimate thieves, Konrad. They are weak, but they have backstabbing attack. If an ally stands on the opposite side of the enemy, the thief will deal double damage to him etc etc ."
Or, when he first time meets Lisar:
Delfador: "Please remember, Konrad, unlike all your previous enemies the Lisar's forces are lawful. This means they fight better during the day. As your elves are neutral, you may prefer to fight them at night. Your outlaw units, like thieves, could also be useful here."
And so on... Of course, it's only on easy level, as it is now.


(And I'd also like that MP and TVofS would be restored. Interesting scenarios, why were they removed, I wonder?.. :hmm: )

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by shadowm » May 1st, 2008, 5:24 pm

Secondary explanations about unit types in other scenarios than the first two would be great. And yes, I agree this should be the first campaign of the list (which can easily be achieved tweaking ranks in mainline campaigns dir).
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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Noyga » May 1st, 2008, 7:42 pm

DISCLAIMER: I haven't played HttT recently, so things might have changed since.
Dave wrote:I had a discussion with rusty about the campaigns in Wesnoth and how appealing they are to beginners. We feel that Heir to the Throne should be returned to being the top, default campaign listed when one chooses to start a campaign. Our rationale for this is as follows:

- Heir to the Throne is welcoming to beginners. It is easy on easy level. It introduces players to units slowly, and introduces them to game concepts slowly and steadily.
I disagree. At least the South Guard do a better job here. AFAIK the south guard give a lot of advice about how to play your units when you're playing on easy level, which HttT doesn't.
Also from my experience, a Tale of Two brother is a Campaign that i found easier to play and is something that a beginer can complete quickly.
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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by zookeeper » May 1st, 2008, 8:13 pm

Noyga wrote:Also from my experience, a Tale of Two brother is a Campaign that i found easier to play and is something that a beginer can complete quickly.
Although IMO TB just isn't a good idea to give to newbies as their first campaign because of the lack of story, bad dialogue and so on. The first campaign experience also needs to be good in addition to being easy enough.

Personally, I think the only problem with HttT being the first campaign recommended to newbies is that it's so long. A long campaign isn't the best introduction into the game. TSG is of a much more suitable length, and I'd consider it a bit of a better candidate after we've finished polishing up the bandit branch.

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Jozrael » May 1st, 2008, 9:29 pm

What about AOI <.< =(

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by vicza » May 1st, 2008, 10:19 pm

Noyga wrote:I disagree. At least the South Guard do a better job here. AFAIK the south guard give a lot of advice about how to play your units when you're playing on easy level, which HttT doesn't.
Still... we are talking about beginners, right? TSG on easy is extremely easy, of course (when you have some experience), but only one healer for entire army... and their enemies most time are UD -- rather specific enemy, low vulnerable to usual weapon etc. I don't think it's a best choice for very beginners. And advices -- advices can be added to httt, too, as I suggested already.

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Jozrael » May 2nd, 2008, 1:36 am

AOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by turin » May 2nd, 2008, 1:50 am

Jozrael wrote:AOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Dude, we got it - you think AOI (An Orcish Incursion, right?) would be a good beginner campaign. Quit spamming this thread about it.
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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Mist » May 2nd, 2008, 1:50 am

I don't mind having HttT at the top, at the moment it's if not the best (tastes vary, I rate UtBS higher on story gampelay and replayability) then the most polished campaign we have. I'd probably feel better if at the same time we suggested playing AOI instead of TB at the end of tutorial.
Jozrael wrote:AOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Firstly, it sucks storywise, not as much as Two Brothers do, but it might discourage players that look for something behind all the fighting. Secondly, new players are expected to play the tutorial, and that's the place we should suggest AOI. Thirdly some of the 'advices' in AOI are misleading because ai is crude and doesn't play along, that needs t be fixed before we push it to the fore. Fourthly it completely lacks it's own art.
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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by turin » May 2nd, 2008, 2:01 am

Mist wrote:I don't mind having HttT at the top, at the moment it's if not the best (tastes vary, I rate UtBS higher on story gampelay and replayability) then the most polished campaign we have.
So as to not get too OT, I'll leave it at this - tastes do indeed vary. :lol2: But yeah, I too think HttT is the best choice for the "default" campaign, which is what people seem to treat the first campaign in the list as...
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Re: Make Heir to the Throne the top/main/default campaign?

Post by Wintermute » May 2nd, 2008, 2:16 am

zookeeper wrote:Although IMO TB just isn't a good idea to give to newbies as their first campaign because of the lack of story, bad dialogue and so on. The first campaign experience also needs to be good in addition to being easy enough.
I agree. HttT made me want to play more Wesnoth. As a 'first' campaign, that seems to be a pretty important goal. It is long, and that might be a problem for some, though it wasn't for me. One advantage of being long, perhaps, is that by the end of it you really have learned quite a bit about the game. Still, I could see wanting a shorter campaign as the default.
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