The Hammer of Thursagan

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Query
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Query » September 12th, 2008, 1:25 am

Since kitty has made some very high quality portraits of several units in this game (the mage line, specifically), could their current lower quality portraits be removed to make way for the standard ones? I realize that some of the units in this game are unique and must have their own campaign-specific portrait, but this isn't the case for red, white, and normal mages.

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Mica
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Mica » September 12th, 2008, 1:31 am

IIRC, the new portraits for the default units have not been put into 1.4.x because that would cause unit inconsistencies between versions, so it has nothing to do with THoT. Also, there is someone working on new portraits right now - or is finished, IIRC.
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Query
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Query » September 12th, 2008, 1:32 am

I was referring to THoT on the dev branch. The units whose new portraits weren't "blocked" by campaign portraits worked fine. By the way, the campaign portraits I am referring to are: elurin.png and ratheln.png.

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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by shadowm » September 12th, 2008, 2:10 am

Mica wrote:IIRC, the new portraits for the default units have not been put into 1.4.x because ...
They are in 1.4.5. Please research a bit more before delivering inaccurate information.
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Mica » September 12th, 2008, 2:13 am

Thus the IIRC. kthx. ;)
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by aokces » January 13th, 2009, 5:41 pm

I'm having problems continuing with the final Underlevels stage. I've cleared the south and am stopped by the doors, and I've cleared the north keep with the 2 unusable teleportation glyphs. According to the walkthrough:

Once you defeat the southern enemy, you will find a locked door. Just leave your troops there, your other group can easily take care of getting the key in the north east corner.
When you have defeated the last enemy in the north, make sure to free the prisoners in the cells near his castle.

However, I can't find any KEY or PRISONERS in the north, so I'm basically stuck. Is there a hidden script on some tile I have to step on?

Edit: Thanks a lot Turuk! I just assumed those doors were locked as well.
Last edited by aokces on January 14th, 2009, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Turuk » January 13th, 2009, 5:45 pm

Aokces. Ok, with the group that you sent north, you are in the room where you see the teleportation runes. The prisoners are behind the door looking graphics in the wall. Just move a unit next to them and they will open, freeing the dwarves.

As to the key, to your east you will find a one hex passage. Head down that passage and look for a castle hex which may have something on it that will help you to open the door. ;)
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Forbidden Forest

Post by MawhrinSkel » January 18th, 2009, 10:47 pm

1.4.7

I'm surprised to see no-one think it a little odd that Angarthing's Leadership ability acts as if he is one level higher than he is. Combined with his speed, that makes him very potent.

Concerning Forbidden Forest:

The green leader is an "elvish lady", apparently not a completed unit, with few hit points, token attack and not slowed by water.

Plot wise, the heroes don't explain there previous encounter with the masked dwarves, which seems odd. They and the elves have a mutual foe.

I've been struggling to find an effective, inexpensive strategy for beating Forbidden Forest on Medium (yes, wuss). I think I have it:

Of the three enemy leaders, only the NE (blue) will recruit cavalry and foot, the SE (mauve) only wosen, the SW (green) only footsoldiers.

Recall the griffon, recruit a mage and recruit four dwarven defenders. All foot units will dash to the signpost, with defenders screening the more important and vulnerable units, and the new mage grabbing the island staff for "martyrdom operations".

The griffon will head south, and keep within 10 hexes of the green leader, but out of range of the units. This will cause that team's units to head towards the griffon, not the foot party. Griffon should circle clockwise. When the foot party has mostly crossed the first river, woses may start to reach them. The griffon should head towards the wose leader, ending turn within range, repeating the trick used on green. There's a convenient range of hills south of the wose leader.

Finished on turn 10, losing one guardsman and the fresh mage. Started next level with 456 gold profit.

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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Turuk » January 18th, 2009, 10:50 pm

MawhrinSkel wrote:Plot wise, the heroes don't explain there previous encounter with the masked dwarves, which seems odd. They and the elves have a mutual foe
Keep on playing, it will start to make more sense. They were seen as outcasts who had forsaken normal dwarf culture and so they were killed. More information on them will appear later on in the campaign.
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Jozrael » February 17th, 2009, 10:20 am

As a note, with the new gold style I believe the middle of this campaign (on hard) is too challenging, strictly from an economic viewpoint. Let's review:

At the East Gate: obviously fine, first scenario.
Reclaiming the Past: Talking
Strange Allies: Fine.
Troll Bridge: Also fine, but...

Invaders: A rough scenario. This is intentional. Economy does not enter into this, but it is a rough scenario. Do not expect to be leaving with large amounts of gold (even if you finish many turns early, as I did. I began next scenario with 200, which I would consider quite above average, or at least larger than is necessary).

High Pass: Easy, but...short turn limit. And you have to recruit a significant force to forge through in enough turns. Plus, you may not have enough time to grab all the villages, meaning little to no income during the scenario, and with the lack of a significant early finish bonus, you begin the next scenario with low, low money.

Mages and Drakes: First of the scenarios where the economy severely impacts your chances to win. I started with about 130-150 gold each time I replayed High Pass to try to get more money for this scenario. This scenario isn't especially challenging, except the enemy leader has a base income of 50. Yes, 50. He's spawning 3 drakes per turn. For the entire game. And you only have 18 turns to finish this in. Yes, I know you do stupid tons of damage to his units with your pointies, but still. 3 units per turn is scary when you don't have a great econ. Now, perhaps you were in a better position than I was, but when I finally beat this, I didn't have great economy either (had a substantial income during the map but no early finish bonus). So, the problem continues in the next scenario...

Fear: Yes, this scenario is also not terribly difficult. 4 ulfs, a steelclad, and a HORDE of level 1s. You wouldn't think 280 starting gold that high, but it is again deceptive. For the enemy leader has 32 base income. At least it's not 50 this time, but still. You encounter the same problem, even after likely having slightly weakened forces at the very beginning due to your welcoming party of four ulfs.

I've had quite a bit of luck with this scenario by just recalling all level 3s on the first turn and charging (except levelling up a brand new white mage in this scenario (not the journeymage, he's going silver). Still, this is unlikely to help your future economic prospects, even finishing a turn or three early.

And then we arrive at Forbidden Forest.

As mentioned above, this is quite hard at at minimum starting gold. :\ I'm having difficulty at 23 above starting gold with a verrry nice recruit list. 8 level 3s and 8 level 2s, all told (unfortunately, not too many units are near their next levelup).

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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Turuk » February 17th, 2009, 3:16 pm

I would have to disagree with you. I played through this campaign on Challenging as well and did not find a particular issue with those scenarios. They may be hard with limited gold, but they are very doable.

Invaders and High Pass are not too bad at all. Especially High Pass, as you can just keep moving through the middle with the main character and have your units hold the sides.

Mages and Drakes: A tough one for me too, though if you have the mages help you (or act as decoys) for the initial rush, I had no problem wiping out the drakes, even at 3 a turn. I am also a lover of Dragonguards and Thunderers though, and their one hit kills came in handy here.

Fear: I actually did not find this one hard at all. Used 5 dwarvish lords/steelclads, the mage became a white mage to heal, and a gryphon to run around grabbing villages and luring off some AI. I held them at the river, slaughtered them, and then pushed forward to take out the leader. The ulfs have berserk, but if you throw a dwarf lord at them, he can kill them in 2 of his three hits.

Forbidden Forest: I was only 4 above the starting gold. I did not try to recruit a massive force in order to take on the elves, I just ran like hell for the signpost. The two main chars can hold off the elves they come into contact with (especially if you slow the woses), and I just recruited a few level 1s as cannon fodder.
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Jozrael » February 17th, 2009, 3:50 pm

I didn't find Invaders particularly hard, just draining. I didn't find high pass hard at all either, I was just saying it wasn't exactly a gold generator. M&D I found hard because I had no thunderers as of yet. I had had too level 2s before, but they had been my only 2 levelled losses. Fear I didn't have too much of a prob with, I just had an extra mage that I made wm since I wanted my important guy to go silver mage (I've forgotten the campaign, and I want to keep him alive, so I figured silver was the most survivable). So with that extra imposition, it was slightly harder. But yes, not much of a problem.

Really, I've just been having mild economy issues (which I generally don't have), and on Forbidden Forest I've been running trying to get and keep the staff. Perhaps if I let that go it'd be much easier :P

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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Turuk » February 17th, 2009, 5:33 pm

Jozrael wrote:Really, I've just been having mild economy issues (which I generally don't have), and on Forbidden Forest I've been running trying to get and keep the staff. Perhaps if I let that go it'd be much easier
Ah yeah, there's your problem. The staff is nice, but you will have to come to terms with letting it go. Leave it for the next party running through a forest full of elves to steal from the temple. ;)
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by Elvish_Pillager » March 8th, 2009, 4:14 pm

So...

I played on Challenging, and reached Forbidden Forest. I'm sure it wouldn't stop me difficulty-wise, but that's the point at which I got fed up with the story and gameplay. (I'll probably play on sometime when I'm bored; it's not terrible...)

Story: This campaign is, so far, the epitome of a generic Wesnoth campaign. In that respect, it's well done. Of course, I don't find the masked ones frightening at all. Only UtBS creates a convincing enemy.

Small thing: How did the dwarves we just fought get through the forest? :?

Gameplay: The difficulty of the scenarios is widely varied. The first three scenarios were trivial; Invaders was quite difficult, since I hadn't made any Dwarvish Lords yet (I had three by the end); High Pass easy, Mages and Drakes somewhat tricky, Fear quite difficult.

The 40% gold carryover means that it's hard to save up much money, so on Challenging, most scenarios just give you 5-7 units. That's not necessarily bad, but it gets monotonous (especially on the scenarios that are difficult enough that many of them have to be level 3 units.)

Basic Dwarves make terrible campaign heroes. They all have four moves, almost everywhere 1 movement cost, high HP and nice resistances. Thunderers and Guardsmen are mildly interesting auxiliary units, but Dwarvish Lords are by far the best level 3. Nothing you can do about that aside from changing the units' stats or sending more drakes and horses as enemies.

On the flip side, the Loremaster unit is basically a Mary Sue. Super-leadership - okay on its own, although it makes your entire force pretty much twice as powerful. Magical slowing and healing/curing - okay, making a Dwarvish Shyde is actually nice, to make up for their lack of interesting abilities. But super-leadership and a magical slow attack and healing and high speed and super resistances?

The fact that the next few scenarios after you get Mages are hard scenarios for Mages? Doesn't help...
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Re: New campaign: The Hammer of Thursagan

Post by esr » March 8th, 2009, 4:55 pm

This is good feedback. A few observations from the designer:
Elvish Pillager wrote:So...
Small thing: How did the dwarves we just fought get through the forest? :?
They didn't. They went around the elves rather than through -- crossed the mountains before the passes closed. I actually though this one out, though it's never explained anywhere.
Gameplay: The difficulty of the scenarios is widely varied. The first three scenarios were trivial; Invaders was quite difficult, since I hadn't made any Dwarvish Lords yet (I had three by the end); High Pass easy, Mages and Drakes somewhat tricky, Fear quite difficult.
Good, that's about the gradient I was aiming for.
Basic Dwarves make terrible campaign heroes. They all have four moves, almost everywhere 1 movement cost, high HP and nice resistances. Thunderers and Guardsmen are mildly interesting auxiliary units, but Dwarvish Lords are by far the best level 3. Nothing you can do about that aside from changing the units' stats or sending more drakes and horses as enemies.
You've unerringly put your finger right on the most serious design problem I had. Yes, it's difficult to be tactically interesting with a dwarves-only side. Jetryl and I have kicked around an idea for a unit line of barbarian troops that could represent (among other things) the Northern Alliance's human infantry and cavalry. Adding those to Aiglondur's recruit list would help.

Short of that, I tried to address the tactical-variety problem by giving him one gryphon and the loremaster.

I have contemplated mainlining the Explorer unit from UtBS so THoT can use it.

Do you think allowing Aiglondur to recruit ulfserkers would be a good thing?
On the flip side, the Loremaster unit is basically a Mary Sue. Super-leadership - okay on its own, although it makes your entire force pretty much twice as powerful. Magical slowing and healing/curing - okay, making a Dwarvish Shyde is actually nice, to make up for their lack of interesting abilities. But super-leadership and a magical slow attack and healing and high speed and super resistances?
The healing is actually more symbolic than anything -- he only gets it at L3, and it's weak. That was deliberate.
The fact that the next few scenarios after you get Mages are hard scenarios for Mages? Doesn't help...
That was deliberate, too. One thing dwarven heavy infantry is particularly good for is bodyguarding mages. That's what you have to do.

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