Northern Rebirth

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beetlenaut
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Liches are cool

Post by beetlenaut » December 12th, 2007, 10:18 pm

Oh...I got a lich in the last level recruiting red magi, level two trolls, ogres, and gryphons. I didn't know it was because Anita had died. The lich's forces actually did most of the work, too.

I probably would have finished Stolen Gold without Krash, but I would definitely have lost some high-powered units. I only started with 5 dwarf lords though. Maybe you need more. (I finished with 12--mostly because of that scenario.)

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Post by thespaceinvader » December 13th, 2007, 7:19 am

Red magi, trolls, ogres and gryphons? Expensive, but awesome. Particularly the trolls.
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Re: Anita: only mostly dead?

Post by Taurus » December 16th, 2007, 11:34 pm

beetlenaut wrote:Great campaign. It was hard enough that I felt pretty good being able to beat it--even on Normal. Later, I'll try it on a harder level. I noticed one problem: Anita got killed (I was using her slows ability a lot), and then she had a lot of dialog at the end of the scenario. Also, the dying elf lord tells you to continue keeping her safe. ("I don't have the heart to tell you this, but...")
This may be a bug that I have to check into. Things should flow smoothly even with Anita dead. Matter of fact, when I get the time I plan to have the campaign able to flow smoothly - storyline wise - even if Tallin is the only man left standing. Yes, it would be harder, as it would be in real life if all of your allies died. I know it would be far easier to just add keeping them alive as a victory condition and save myself all the extra coding, but just say it's just my personal little quirks :-) Besides, it is something that sets NR apart from all the rest of the great campaigns out there.
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kefka01
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nice graphics

Post by kefka01 » December 26th, 2007, 3:15 am

Just started playing this campaign. Nice backgrounds for the epilogue text. It really makes it feel like well polished work so far. I really like the picture of Moraine Lake that was used; the Canadian Rockies are beautiful.

friar tuck
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Gold Amount in Showdown

Post by friar tuck » January 10th, 2008, 2:25 am

I've finally reached Showdown and am enjoying the campaign enormously so far. I'll write some more comments after finishing completely, but at the moment I'd just like to know whether the amount of gold I'm getting is intended.

I finished old friend with a bit less than 6000 gold pieces (i know I overrecruited ;-) and now in showdown I get about 1900 gold pieces which is approximately one third.

So far so good, but I'm wondering what happened to the 1300 gold I got out of Get the Gold the regular way?

Looking at the WML it seems something is supposed to happen to combine both amounts, but I don't understand what it's supposed to do. Of course I'd hope for the sum of both but that's not what I'm observing.

So I'd like to know what the intended effect of

Code: Select all

        [store_gold]
            side=1
            variable=gold_returned
        [/store_gold]
        {VARIABLE_OP gold_returned multiply -1}
        [gold]
            side=1
            amount=$gold_returned
        [/gold]
        [gold]
            side=1
            amount=$stored_gold
        [/gold]
        {VARIABLE_OP gold_returned multiply -1}
        {CLEAR_VARIABLE gold_returned}
is?

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Mist
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Post by Mist » January 10th, 2008, 3:19 am

Store side 1 gold as $gold_returned
Make $gold_returned into a negative value
Add to side 1 gold
Add $stored_gold to side 1 gold
Make $gold_returned into a positive value
Get rid of $gold_returned

Translating : do not add $gold_returned amount to the side after the end of scenario.
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friar tuck
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Post by friar tuck » January 10th, 2008, 11:07 am

Mist wrote: Translating : do not add $gold_returned amount to the side after the end of scenario.
Ok, so it is intended that I should not keep the gold I earned "the normal way" since Old Friend. I wonder why?

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Defensive strategy on showdown means loss by death of Hamel

Post by friar tuck » January 20th, 2008, 6:52 am

Ok, after trying for 10 days (IRL, it's only two days in game ;) it seems I'm not beating showdown.

Hamel is almost done committing suicide in turn 11.

It's less that his dwarves insist on standig on unfavourable ground (no need to complain about that; I'm exploiting this behaviour in the orcs big time...), or that he himself attacks berserk-style once his funds run out. He's got enough funds to stand his ground even then, and I can send him reinforcements from the drakes and elves.

The problem is that he's not respecting Tallins advice at all:

"Yeah. Obviously this is going to take some time. If necessary we can sit tight in our fortifications and siege them until they starve!"

While everyone else is playing safe and waiting for the orcs' reinforcements to run out, Hamel's dwarves are pushing forward with all force, attracting the attention of every single orc on the map.

At the time my reinforcements arrive, Hamel is surrounded in such a thick wall of second-level orcs (THEY are standing on hills and mountains, btw) that it's impossible to even reach him before he'll die.

(Another btw, looking at the WML I can't see anything about losing in Hamel's death event. Maybe I could ignore him? In principle my strategy is working out well (lots of troop movements; distributing druids everywhere and sending dwarven lords to the north to help the drakes in the mountains), but it'll take at least 15 turns to win, while it takes only 12 turns to Hamel's utter destruction.)

Now I'll try a different strategy: Attack the fortress immediately with dwarven lords from the east, hoping to draw enough attention to keep the orcs away from the far west and buy me some time to get reinforcements into Hamels keep and work out a winning strategy before his suicide....

It's sad that as soon as you have an ally who needs to survive (Sisal also suicided immediately, attacking orcs on the shore from water), all strategy has to be focused entirely on saving his life in spite of all his attempts to kill himself on the nearest enemies weapon.

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Post by Angry Andersen » January 20th, 2008, 3:35 pm

You should be able to send some Elves from the south to help him before round 11. A massive attack from the east will probably cost you lots of units.

Better if you try to wear them down, e.g. move your eastern army barely into range of the orcs at dawn and then cycle the wounded units while using the rest to kill those orcs who dared come out of their castle.

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Post by friar tuck » January 20th, 2008, 4:31 pm

Angry Andersen wrote:You should be able to send some Elves from the south to help him before round 11.
Yea, probably, especially if I recruit a lot of lvl 2s. Still, when they arrive the place will be swarming with orcs and trolls, and attacking those with elves outside of forest means sacrificing lots of ressources for very little effect.

Curently I'm trying to move a massive army from the east right up to the water front, forcing the orcs to attack from water. If this works out, the scenario will be over very soon.

Considering the amount of time I currently have for playing BfW, I assume it will take me a week to play 10 turns in this scenario, so I'll try the "fast and painful" version before replaying the "long version" of about 15 turns.
Angry Andersen wrote:A massive attack from the east will probably cost you lots of units.
For sure. :(

But I have about 30 dwarven lords, so I hope they will last longer than the orcish forces ;)
Angry Andersen wrote:Better if you try to wear them down, e.g. move your eastern army barely into range of the orcs at dawn and then cycle the wounded units while using the rest to kill those orcs who dared come out of their castle.


... which would mean my dwarvish lords will have 30% defence.

I'm not sure I'll be able to compensate for this by cycling alone for a long time.

Last time I stayed in the starting fort, but this was not enough to attract enough orcs.

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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader » January 20th, 2008, 5:33 pm

30% defence, but if you've levelled Tallin right up (which you should have), and use his movement effectively once he has the rod of justice, they will have leadership on their side, and they should have some healing, too - you should still have the Druid, and of course, you'll definitely have the two white magi...
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Post by friar tuck » January 21st, 2008, 5:06 am

thespaceinvader wrote:30% defence, but if you've levelled Tallin right up (which you should have), and use his movement effectively once he has the rod of justice, they will have leadership on their side, and they should have some healing, too - you should still have the Druid, and of course, you'll definitely have the two white magi...
Well even if I keep to my fortress (which is not the advice Angry Andersen gave) the frontline will be so long neither leadership nor healers will be very effective.

If I leave the fortress then the frontline is even longer (otherwise the orcs will capture my villages) and to profit of Tallins leadership he would need to stop recruiting...

Furthermore 30% defense means a dwarven lord will receive around 20 points damage from one orcish warlord per turn and about the same from a slurbow, and to cycle against that I'd need plenty of units and effectively a VERY long front.

What you describe here is my strategy for eastern fortress, and I believe it'd work very well here as well if there wasn't an ally who will die if I don't absolutely rush this thing.

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Post by Angry Andersen » January 21st, 2008, 3:57 pm

Unless the AI behavior has been changed since I did this level (~Version 1.2.7), there won't be many Orcs attacking to the south after the initial wave. Therefore more than half of the elvish army can be moved NW to save the dwarves.

At the same time a group of your dwarves + 1-2 healers should reinforce the northern front (drakes), who will then also be able to sent reinforcements to the west (...and drakes can get there really quickly).

Try to use your reinforcements to "clean up" the orcs that have advanced furthest towards the keep and let the orcs kill the dwarves in their turn. If you do this well, you should manage to build (and hold) a line of your own units at the edge of the mountains. After that you can lay siege on the orcs without danger of them overrunning the dwarves.


Eastern Front: Dwarven Lords have great resistances, so the inital 2 attacks per dwarf (if you build a proper line) will not be enough to bring it close to dying. At the same time the attacking orcs suffer retaliation damage. Cycle the wounded dwarves and use "safe" attacks against the attackers, i.e. ranged against warlords and melee against slurbows. Your units get healed, the orcs don't, so all it's really about is drawing out time until the orcs die.
If too many attackers appear, retreat to the keep. This also forces their reinforcements to move one turn longer to reach you, thereby creating holes in their lines.

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Post by friar tuck » January 22nd, 2008, 4:52 am

Angry Andersen wrote:Unless the AI behavior has been changed since I did this level (~Version 1.2.7), there won't be many Orcs attacking to the south after the initial wave. Therefore more than half of the elvish army can be moved NW to save the dwarves.
Depends on what the initial wave is in your opinion.

At least at the moment its turn 8 and I have 23 orcs/trolls still attacking the elves though I already killed plenty.

And an elf takes about 8 turns to even walk to Hamel's keep, which is more of a mathematical figure because my troops are attacked all the way, slowing them down.

It'll be a challenge even to get out of the little patch of forest at the far shore of the sw river, and then we will see elves coming from open ground attacking trolls and orcs standing on hills and mountains, which is a view probably mainly enjoyed by sadomasochists.
Angry Andersen wrote: At the same time a group of your dwarves + 1-2 healers should reinforce the northern front (drakes), who will then also be able to sent reinforcements to the west (...and drakes can get there really quickly).
This is what I did on the first try, but the dwarven lords (as well as the white mages) take a long time to walk up there, so they won't be attacking (and the healers won't be healing) at least until turn 6, which seems an awful waste to me in retrospect.

Anyway, owing to the massive attack in the east, the drakes up north are mostly left alone, so I could send a lot of them over to hamel.

But most drakes have 5 MP, and the direct route is mostly open ground, so they're not much faster than other units there. Taking the route over the mountains (which I did for security reasons) takes about six turns, and discounting initial recruits, my drakes are arriving now in turn 8.

Angry Andersen wrote: Try to use your reinforcements to "clean up" the orcs that have advanced furthest towards the keep and let the orcs kill the dwarves in their turn. If you do this well, you should manage to build (and hold) a line of your own units at the edge of the mountains. After that you can lay siege on the orcs without danger of them overrunning the dwarves.
I'll try, but your advice somehow sounds overly optimistic ;)

At my arrival, Hamels keep is completely surrounded two layers deep by trolls and orcs, so "cleaning up" really looks like a group of lvl 1 drakes on 40% defence meeting a large army of lvl2 orcs and trolls in the mountains, i.e. 60% defence. It is day now, and four drakes are unable to kill one lvl 2 orc in one turn, so I have little hope of establishing "a line of my own" before dusk, when I expect my drakes to be completely obliterated in the night with very little effect on Hamel's demise.

Angry Andersen wrote: Eastern Front: Dwarven Lords have great resistances, so the inital 2 attacks per dwarf (if you build a proper line) will not be enough to bring it close to dying. At the same time the attacking orcs suffer retaliation damage. Cycle the wounded dwarves and use "safe" attacks against the attackers, i.e. ranged against warlords and melee against slurbows. Your units get healed, the orcs don't, so all it's really about is drawing out time until the orcs die.
... which sounds like the exact thing I don't have time for owing to the absolutely suicidical behaviour of hamel's troops.

As I already said, this is exactly what I did in "Eastern Fortress", leading to almost no losses, lots of level-ups and an extremely large early finish bonus on my part (the latter having been lost at the beginning of this scenario because my initial gold is replaced by the gold recovered from Rakshas).

It would surely work here as well if I didn't have an ally who is making every effort to die as fast as possible in spite of his rather comfortable initilal situation.

To alleviate the somewhat hypothetical nature of this discussion, could you provide a replay of this scenario (1.3.x, difficulty "Difficult") so I could watch your strategy in action?

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Hopeless...

Post by friar tuck » January 23rd, 2008, 10:12 pm

Ok, time to give up again.

In principle, the "massive attack" worked out very well. In turn 11, I already killed the green leader and am about to kill purple and blue (Rakshas). I'm much further advanced than in my last try and I assume I'd be able to win in another three turns.

But Hamel is lost beyond all hope. There is a massive group of at least 50 orcs and trolls directly adjacent to him, and there are nearly no dwarves left on his side. I see absolutely no way for any amount of drakes or elves I could muster to even make a dent in this army (furthermore my elves are still under massive attack themselves, so they fail to even move over the river in significant amounts).

I expect Hamel to die next turn, and I certainly won't spend another two hours to watch THAT show.

Unfortunately my massive attack from the east didn't have the intended effect to draw significant amounts of orcs and trolls from the other battlefields back into the fortress. It is almost deserted, allowing me fast progress, but not fast enough.

It seems to have a chance, I need to win in turn 11 at the latest, and currently I see no further optimization which would allow for this.

It seems I need to go back and replay at least from Old Friend, better from Clearing the mines, because I need

* more funds (wasted a lot in the Pursuit and Old Friend by overrecruiting)

* more dwarven lords (need to recruit dwarven fighter exclusively in clearing the mines)

* more fugitives (need to recruit less of the other unit types in infested caves)

But as I'm playing this campaign continually since mid December, I expect this to take at least until end February. So, I'll rather leave it alone for the time being and hope that taurus will listen to my pleas and during this time will either

* give Hamel at least 1000 more starting gold (it's not that he's doing anything with it which could contribute to conquering the orcs, but it could allow him to survive the decisive further three turns I need to win)

* make the orcs a bit more afraid when the fortress is entered, causing them to rush back and concentrate less on finishing Hamel

* move Hamels keep a bit further west and put some mountains (maybe interspersed with impassable mountains or chasms) between it and the fortress to help him last a little longer

* make Hamel's dwarves a little less eager to throw themselves into the orc's swords at every possible opportunity

* move the elves' and drakes' keeps a bit nearer to Hamels so there is a chance to get behind him before he's completely swarmed and unreachable from outside

Maybe I'm just doing all this completely wrong. This is difficulty "Difficult" after all, so maybe a much better player than myself will see the loopholes and master the problems I'm facing with ease. In that case I'd like to see a replay demonstrating how a pro does this, so I can retreat in all humbleness and practise further until I reach such mastership.

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