[Historical] Northern Rebirth Going Mainline

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Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

I'm a stickler for balance and usefulness as opposed to something thematically working, and I'm guessing the reason you can't recruit spearmen and bowmen is because you worked hard at getting them, and so they should be special units, hard to get but useful in different ways than thugs or poachers... having level 3's makes a big different in my campaign-playing style, as does the pierce v. impact of the spearman vs. thug.
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Mist
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Post by Mist »

1. To be honest, there actualy is no storyline within the first scenario, it's quite good at the either side of it, but nonexistent within. So nothing to hook up at. And as I browsed trough first few, it seemed to be usual approach - loads of information between scenarios, practicaly no dialogs within.

The storyline is good, but given the size of the maps and lack of it inside scenarios they tend to drag sometimes, and that could be worked at.

2. No, I think you should either make the map smaller, or reduce the time needed to mop up. Consider scrapping smaller castles orcish leaders tend to retreat to, or move them out of those mountains. Killing lvl3 orc standing on a mountain with lvl0 peasant is infuriating.

3. It's not to long, especialy considering no information about the area and that timeframe in other campaigns. If you want to change something, maybe moving Tallins biography to the scenario to pop up as 'selected' type event could do the trick.

Moving all of the scenario inside would be a pain if you had to replay the scenario from some reason.

4. They are needed, don't see any other human unit that could keep you alive in caves. So maybe introduce them gradualy :
*each time a peasant kills a grunt in the first scenario he has 20% chance to pick up some of grunts equipment and change to a thug (die event changing type)
*each time he kills an archer 30% to become a poacher

This would render introducing different peasants types obsolete, and solved peasant to criminal problem in one go.

5. One thing that needs doing, prevent orcs in first scenario from recruiting scouts. As it is at the moment over the first few turns dialog implies that they are fighting among themselves while in reality they are harrasing you with wolfriders.
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Post by Taurus »

turin wrote:
Taurus wrote:About the orcs keeping slaves, I originally got the starting idea from the 'Dwarvin Doors' scenario in HttT where Konrad desires to free the slaves but on the advice from Defador, bypasses them instead.
I don't remember that line. But in any case - this particular issue is just a personal preference.
For the reccord:

Code: Select all

[message]
		description=Delfador
		message= _ "At last, this is the entrance to the Dwarven Kingdoms."
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Konrad
		message= _ "All I can see are ruins and poor villages."
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Kalenz
		message= _ "The poor villagers that once lived here and traded with the dwarves are now held in slavery by the orcs."
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Konrad
		message= _ "Slaves to the evil orcs? We must liberate them!"
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Delfador
		message= _ "That would not be a wise choice, for our mission is to retrieve the Scepter of Fire. If we tarry in this place, hordes of orcs will surround us."
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Kalenz
		message= _ "Konrad, heed the words of Delfador. We shall return to wrest the grip of the orcs from these lands. Look - orcs are already gathering. More are surely on their way."
		[/message]
		[message]
		description=Konrad
		message= _ "This does not please me, but I will listen to your advice."
		[/message]
my issue isn't so much with how easy the level was, but with how boring it was; given the numbers involved, each turn took too long for my liking, and the tactics seemed rather simplistic and boring.
I see your point, but a fundimental part of this campaign is BIG scenarios. Some people don't like them, while other people love them. I could change it, but I think that would be taking away from what makes this campaign unique. If you try to please all you please none as I am sure you know by now.

And my point about the tactics was that if you try this scenario at the difficulty appropiate for you - it's a lot leas simplistic then it seems. When something is different and challanging it tends to be more fun. But anyhow, I will probobally add at least a new type of level 0 'peasant archer' to the recruit list - so it will mix things up a bit without changing the overall tactical situation.
Taurus wrote:This is why I don't like prejudgments because this campaign does NOT build up the the Knalgan Alliance.
But it seems like it will from where I've gotten to (a few scenarios in now).
***Spoilers***
Starting from 'The Persuit' you can't recruit dwarves anymore and only are able to recall those on your recall list (I actually got the basic inspiration for doing that from one of your campaigns). Then in Old Friend, the dwarves have finally had a chance to forge your men some decient weapons so that opens up another whole can of worms...
***end of spoilers***
I don't have a problem with them arming themselves properly; but why thugs and poachers? It seems strange that when the peasants advance, they become spearmen and bowmen, but then the next scenario they're using a completely different unit set. (Maybe this will be explained later; but no hint of such an explanation has been given. I don't mind mysteries, I mind confusing stuff that doesn't appear like it will ever be resolved - even if it eventually will.)
You know, you are right, and something is deffinatley going to change here.
[I also found it mildly irritating that the spearmen and bowmen I worked so hard to advance in the previous scenario are now apparently going to be useless, since I can just recruit level 1 units. However, that didn't bug me too much, since it might be rectified later in the campaign.]
I know it is a bit irritating, but I think you would rather be irrated in that way rathern then have to compleatley build up an army from just peasants! An intersting idea in itself, but not for Northern Rebirth. But you just gave me an idea... Perhaps there is a way to make it worthiwile to upgrade your peasants.....
BTW, I'm not going to argue that my opinion of the campaign isn't entirely a prejudgement, because it is. I don't really like the idea of "freeing the slaves and escaping to freedom" as a campaign idea. But I'm trying not to let that bias my commentary about it going mainline or not, since obviously that doesn't mean it's a bad campaign...
It is a bit of a generic way to start - but it does get more original as you go on.
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Taurus
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Post by Taurus »

I uploaded a new version of Northern Rebirth on the Server which addresses most issues brought up in this thread. Starting form the Beggining:

Custom Units, Hero Icon, Credits in Beggining: Deleated

Terrain: Updated, looks a lot better I think :-)

Dialoge Between Senarios: Staying as is. Personal preference - sorry folks.

Introduction being long, borring, jumpy: I looked it over, and I aggree, some parts wern't that very well written (as expected I guess in a person's first scenario of his first campaign) so I made a few changes, and I think it will catch a person's intrest a lot better.

Sudden Jump to Thugs & Poachers: Once again, I think the fundimental problem was that it was too sudden. Hence, I added some more story in the begginig of that scenario which makes the change move along a lot more smoothly.

Swarming With Peasants Borring: Added a new Level 0 unit which will be in the mainline in the next 1.3 release - the Woodsman. For now it's a custom unit, but since it is going to be in the trunk pretty quick here I allowed myself ane exception.

I think that pretty much coveres evertying. As always, there was more pollishing and bug fixing, new music and so on. Portraits are still on the way, but I added Eleazar's coloring of Tallin for now. I think it's great in it's own sense, and I didn't already have a bunch more in a different style, I think I would keep it. Thanks again Eleazar.
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Angry Andersen
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Post by Angry Andersen »

I played most of this campaign and I liked most of what I played. The campaign is unique in a couple of ways and I think that it should be kept that way!
So please, ignore all those requests to make the campaign more 'normal', e.g. adding spearmen, etc. to the first scenario (of course, this is just my personal opinion). Of course not everyone likes it the way it is, but then nobody is forcing them to play it.

As you mentioned, it seems people either love or hate the campaign. If you change too much to make it more 'normal' you are probably going to end up with something on which everyone agrees that it is quite mediocre...
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Angry Andersen wrote:I played most of this campaign and I liked most of what I played. The campaign is unique in a couple of ways and I think that it should be kept that way!
So please, ignore all those requests to make the campaign more 'normal', e.g. adding spearmen, etc. to the first scenario (of course, this is just my personal opinion). Of course not everyone likes it the way it is, but then nobody is forcing them to play it.

As you mentioned, it seems people either love or hate the campaign. If you change too much to make it more 'normal' you are probably going to end up with something on which everyone agrees that it is quite mediocre...
I haven't yet played the campaign, but I wish to second this statement. Never destroy uniqueness!

Peopel who hate what is unfamiliar only because it is unfamiliar should not be allowed to dictate the course of any campaign.
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Post by joshudson »

Are those special liches you are discussing the demilich and dread lich? If so, they probably should be restored everywhere as useful monsters.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Temuchin Khan wrote:Peopel who hate what is unfamiliar only because it is unfamiliar
I'd just like to point out no one has done that here (as far as I've seen or heard anyway). ;)
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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

Temuchin Khan wrote:Never destroy uniqueness!
A lousy rule to live by. A unique idea has a much chance of being unquestionably bad as a derivative idea. For instance a campaign that gave false information about how to win each scenario— without any justification from the storyline. That would certainly be unique, and deserving of destruction.
josh wrote:Are those special liches you are discussing the demilich and dread lich? If so, they probably should be restored everywhere as useful monsters.
They need need updated graphics before reintroduction to mainline would be considered.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Taurus
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Post by Taurus »

Thanks for the support Angry Anderson and Temuchin Khan, and I actually couldn't aggree more. I think that one of the main strengths of NR is that there is nothing quite like it out there to date.

However, as what I believe Eleazar is trying to say, even if it is original - it still can be improved. As a campaign designer, I think it is very important for me to be always open to suggestions, take criticizm constructivly, and always be on edge.

I believe the Wesnoth devs have it down, as their attitude is, "I'll listen to your suggestions, criticizms with an open mind, but it is up to me to determine weither or not they are justified, or weither or not I am going to act on them." IOW, don't whimsicly teater totter back and forth as soon as someone posts a new comment, but at the same time, don't turn a deaf ear to imupt.

So, if you don't mind me sounding a bit egotistical, I think I acheived a pretty good balance in this latest release - I addressed most of the complaints, and yet still stayed true to the uniqueness of the campaign. Take the peasant swarming thing in the first scenario for example - people were compaling it was too borring, but on the other hand, it does make for a unique interesting tactical challange which some people love. Solution - add the Woodsman - a level 0 peasant/archer. It changes some things up, makes it more interesting, but at the same time the essential tactical situation - the uniqueness is still there.

About the Demilich and Dread Lich - if they go mainline (as I aggree, they should) I will deffinatley add them back. But right now - the pain of keeping them up to date isn't really worth the bennifit.
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Teodesian
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Post by Teodesian »

I've played the campaign through the map with the lich and his draug posse (though I have taken the undead fork as far as it goes and loved it).

Anyways, I've found that summoning the peasant over the woodsman is preferable just to speed up the first map (as the bow attack winds up hurting less in the long term).

Pumping out a single type of unit was also critical for the mine clearing mission (as thugs conveyed the same advantage over poachers as the peasants did over woodsmen in the first map while time was a bigger factor).

The map where Tallin's crew whacked on the doggies allowed a good mix of units, however I found that in the lich's cave I was relying on a single unit (dwarvish fighter) strategy again (though not to speed it up, as the thunderers just suck against skeletons).

I gotta say, that much attrition with little options as far as strategies really started to wear on me in the lich's cave. I found myself giving up too much on that map (partly from the bigness, mostly from the fact that I already knew how I was going to take this guy down: just like all the previous maps).

Other than what I've tried to point out here, I didn't find the campaign uninteresting or monotonous. I liked the length of the story parts between maps (especially on the map "Ray of Hope").

I hope my comments can be helpful, but I may have rambled just a bit too much.
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Post by friar tuck »

I'm currently playing the 1.3 version of the campaign and I have to say I'm enjoying it very much, though the first scenario was so far the most interesting one.

I'm just starting with Old Friend, so I'm looking forward to what's awaiting me next.

Maybe one thing: I think if I hdn't had the walkthrough of The Pursuit by ardenstone, maybe I'd have quit. The scenario takes excessively long to finish, and starting over just because of finding that in the very end, the timing is not working out would have been beyond my capacity.
On the other hand, with the amount of gold one gets here, it doesn't rally matter how many (hundreds of) turns one takes to finish. Maybe this should be mentioned somewhere...

Three apparent bugs I found:

1) In CtM, I killed the Lich before the last draught. After all the ending dialogue, it seemed odd that the scenario didn't end. I think it would be a nice touch to automatically kill all remaining draughts on the death of Malifor...

2) It seems I can recruit dwarves in The Pursuit.

3) I gave the RoJ to Tallin (the royal guard), which seemed a logical thing to do. After his auto-promotion to a general a lot of the special traits of the RoJ (movement/health) vanished. Don't know whether this is intentional.
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Post by General Mac »

I disagree that the scenario is too long. Their were so many different things you could do in this map that I simply did them while I ate my way through the Draugs.

I can think of 2 or 3 scenarios I would change before I touched this one.

In my opinion you are suppose to be able to rct dwarves or else it would be almost impossible.

Probably a bug, but the campaign isn't finished yet. Taurus may have something more special based around the RoJ. :wink:
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Post by friar tuck »

General Mac wrote:I disagree that the scenario is too long. Their were so many different things you could do in this map that I simply did them while I ate my way through the Draugs.

I can think of 2 or 3 scenarios I would change before I touched this one.
I wasn't suggesting to change the scenario. I also found it very interesting.

Maybe I was misjudging what could have gone wrong without the walkthrough.

Of course you don't have to find all the easter eggs ;-)

But the key to the scenario is clearly to recruit/recall all you possibly can, because
1) This gives the chance to rotate units, preserving the XP even before the healers come on, and effectively making the scenario into an XP factory for future challenges.
2) Otherwise the scenario can take excessively long (I took about 60 turns; without the walkthrough this could've easily been more than 100), and the timing can go seriously awry (for instance, sending only a small group into the flooded tunnel and opening the back door too early, it can happen that Malifor will move to the water castle, and I guess it'll be impossible to kill him over water.)

On the other hand, if I see a scenario without turn limit, I tend to think "oops, no early finish bonus, better not let income get negative". And I think in this case it would be almost impossible to even reach the treasury, let alone finish the scenario.

So all I'm asking for is for some loyal unit to say, after reaching the the central keep, "Uh oh I hear skeletons approaching from all directions, and some other sounds which make my skin creep. Tallin, I fear we are doomed if you don't recall every single man and dwarf from our army. Malifor must have hoarded enormous treasures somewhere here so I think we can replenish our funds after we finish him."

General Mac wrote: In my opinion you are suppose to be able to rct dwarves or else it would be almost impossible.

Probably a bug, but the campaign isn't finished yet. Taurus may have something more special based around the RoJ. :wink:
Please ignore my bug reports. I just found I'm not playing the latest version
:(

It's a bit difficult to judge from the download menu when a campaign has been updated...
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Post by Taurus »

Hey Friar Tuck

I am glad you are enjoying the campaign, and thanks for basing your feedback on the version that is in the trunk, as that is the most up to date :-)

1) In clearing the mines, you don't actually kill the Lich (Malifor), rather he disappears on you. Since he is still alive, it is intentional that you have to kill all the draughts in order to secure and clear the mines.

2) That is a bug actually. I'm sorry General Mac, but you should be able to recall dwarves, but not recruit them. In all the times I have play tested this scenario, I have done just fine just being able to recruit thugs.

3) I do have quite a few more things based around the RoJ, but this is another bug. Thanks for pointing it out.

About "The Persuit" I had originally designed it (as much of this campaign) so that you don't necessarily have to go down every passage to compete it. If you really wanted to, you could just free the white mages from the dungeons and then sneak down the flooded passage and take Mailfor out without having to do anything else. However, if you do decide to take the place over, the bennifits definatley are there (does 5000+ gold sound tempting anyone?)

Oh, and about the gold going into the minus and all, I think it is a matter of how miserly you are. You know that no matter how far into the red you go, your gold is going to be set back to at least 100 in the next scenario. Take finding the gold as a bonus. And I don't care how many units you recruit, or how long you take to compleate the scenario, you are going to be left with one big hefty chunk of gold by the time you are done :-)
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