The Succession in Heir to the Throne

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » July 19th, 2019, 10:38 pm

I just put together a family tree of the Garardine Dynasty, who ruled the Kingdom of Wesnoth during the events of Heir to the Throne, and realised that the succession seems a little off.

I've put together a version of the family tree that shows the children and grandchildren of Garad I.

SuccessionCrisis.PNG
In 501, Eldred turns on Garard I, and kills him. He also kills his brothers, Erain and Ethyn. With Garard dead, Eldred inherits, as his oldest son. So far so good.

Then, Eldred is killed by Delfador. At this point, the succession should pass to Li'sar, who is now the only surviving child of Garard II. Instead, the crown is due to go to one of Prince Arand's children. The only way this passes over Li'sar is if women can't inherit - but that raises a problem, too, because the crown goes to Asheviere. A woman.

I can't see what succession laws would lead to Asheviere, Garard II's wife, inheriting ahead of Li'sar, Garad II's daughter. I could see Asheviere being the regent while Li'sar was too young to reign - but by the start of Heir to the Throne, Li'sar is canonically an adult, in command of an army. She should have assumed the throne, assuming Asheviere was her regent. Even if we assume that Li'sar is due to inherit shortly, it makes the whole plot of Heir to the Throne a little silly, with Delfador waiting out the vast majority of Asheviere's reign, just to rebel towards the very end.

So... what's going on there?

EDIT: I messed up. Erain and Ethyn are Eldred's brothers, not his sons. I fixed that now.
If presented with the opportunity, I would take great pleasure in becoming a world ruler.

gnombat
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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by gnombat » July 20th, 2019, 3:29 am

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:38 pm
I can't see what succession laws would lead to Asheviere, Garard II's wife, inheriting ahead of Li'sar, Garad II's daughter.
I think the dialogue alludes to this in some places, like in the scenario "Elven Council":
Li'sar wrote:I will return, and people will accept me as Queen. I will rule justly and fairly. My mother is only Queen Dowager. The throne is rightfully mine...

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EarthCake
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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by EarthCake » July 20th, 2019, 8:22 am

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:38 pm
I can't see what succession laws would lead to Asheviere, Garard II's wife, inheriting ahead of Li'sar, Garad II's daughter.
That laws are sword and blood.

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » July 20th, 2019, 10:16 am

gnombat wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 3:29 am
I think the dialogue alludes to this in some places, like in the scenario "Elven Council":
Li'sar wrote:I will return, and people will accept me as Queen. I will rule justly and fairly. My mother is only Queen Dowager. The throne is rightfully mine...
Ah, I forgot about that line. So Li'sar is ahead of Asheviere in the line of succession, Asheviere just took the throne for herself and Li'sar was obviously too young to do anything about it.
EarthCake wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 8:22 am
That laws are sword and blood.
Makes sense, considering Asheviere is leading the only remaining army - after Garard and Delfador both lost theirs.

What still needs to be figured out, though, is why Konrad and his brothers were seemingly ahead of Li'sar in the line of succession, in a system where women can inherit.
If presented with the opportunity, I would take great pleasure in becoming a world ruler.

otzenpunk
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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by otzenpunk » August 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 10:16 am
What still needs to be figured out, though, is why Konrad and his brothers were seemingly ahead of Li'sar in the line of succession, in a system where women can inherit.
Wasn't the succession system in England also strictly patrilinear? Until there came the point, when there wasn't any male heir left, and all of a sudden it was actually ok for a woman to become queen? It's probably the same here.

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Sur_191
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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by Sur_191 » August 10th, 2019, 11:00 pm

otzenpunk wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm
Wasn't the succession system in England also strictly patrilinear? Until there came the point, when there wasn't any male heir left, and all of a sudden it was actually ok for a woman to become queen? It's probably the same here.
That's not strictly patrilineal (or agnatic) succession. It would prevent women from inheriting under any circumstances. You are talking about semi-salic succession. That one allow women to inherit when all male relatives all dead. In that case, a closest female relative of recently deceased ruler inherits. (Which would work in our example since Li'sar is oldest (and only) daughter of king Garard II).

Source.

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Re: The Succession in Heir to the Throne

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » August 11th, 2019, 12:55 pm

Sur_191 wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 11:00 pm
otzenpunk wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm
Wasn't the succession system in England also strictly patrilinear? Until there came the point, when there wasn't any male heir left, and all of a sudden it was actually ok for a woman to become queen? It's probably the same here.
That's not strictly patrilineal (or agnatic) succession. It would prevent women from inheriting under any circumstances. You are talking about semi-salic succession. That one allow women to inherit when all male relatives all dead. In that case, a closest female relative of recently deceased ruler inherits. (Which would work in our example since Li'sar is oldest (and only) daughter of king Garard II).

Source.
This is true, though England did use an exclusively patrilineal succession system for the first couple of hundred years of its existence. Well - it was technically an elective monarchy, though the King's son was practically guaranteed to inherit, outside of exceptional circumstances.
If presented with the opportunity, I would take great pleasure in becoming a world ruler.

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