Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth »

There's a couple of things in the Dunefolk descriptions that need changing.
Dune Soldier wrote:While most Dunefolk castes serve an additional practical purpose beyond only direct warfare, Dune Soldiers are among the few who are completely dedicated to military purposes. By train intensely to hone their skill in swordplay, Soldiers learn to navigate tricky fights in close quarters and repel ranged assaults with their shields. A typical Dunefolk formation makes use of this adeptness by placing Soldiers in a spaced pattern, allowing them to draw out clustered enemy lines and overwhelm their foes in pseudo single combat.
"Train" should instead be "training."
Dune Harrier wrote:While Dune Harriers can fulfill a similar role to Striders in hampering enemy forces, their name is actually derived from the harrier hawks they employ to maintain contact with the bulk of a Dunefolk army. Most commonly found operating behind enemy lines, Harriers are usually tasked with providing useful intelligence on enemy troop movements. However, when the time is right, these agile warriors gather together and strike at the rear of weakened supply lines or flanks. A rain of bolas followed by a piercing thrust of spears is often enough to severely cripple the target, allowing the main Dunefolk force to close in and finish the job. The choice to stand and fight is not an easy one either: Harriers are considerably skilled in wielding their spears, and their hawks can provide an extra attack when absolutely necessary.
The bolded section should be removed, as the Harrier no longer has a hawk attack.
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Hejnewar
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Hejnewar »

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:34 pm The bolded section should be removed, as the Harrier no longer has a hawk attack.
This was never a thing. So this is pure lore.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

I don't think the bolded section should be removed. Falcons are still in the game, so they can represent the hawks where needed.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Whiskeyjack »

This was already removed in commit 4bbfe77445f on my request (following Tom's remark).

Even if the line doesn't need to be removed, I still thinks it's the better course of action simply because the wording already sounds weird and on top of it wrongfully makes it sound like there is a game-play element referenced here ("an extra attack" ...).
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Maybe if it were phrased differently, implying that only some harriers train hawks which can serve as an extra attack?
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Sure - you could say something like
The choice to counterattack is not an easy one either: Harriers are considerably skilled in wielding their spears, and even their hawks can strike unsuspecting foes when hard-pressed.
My main concern is to get away from the "extra attack" wording. If you want to add it back in, you should probably send nemaara a quick note, as (I think?) they wrote the dunefolk descriptions and handled the removal.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Pentarctagon »

If it gets re-added, at a minimum it should be worded in a way that doesn't make it likely to be misinterpreted as describing an aspect of the unit's gameplay that doesn't exist.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Perhaps it might help to say "falcon" instead of "hawk, as that more clearly references the separate falcon unit…
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Whiskeyjack »

First line of the unit description...
While Dune Harriers can fulfill a similar role to Striders in hampering enemy forces, their name is actually derived from the harrier hawks they employ to maintain contact with the bulk of a Dunefolk army.
You can of course force a reference to the falcon unit which isn't even part of the multiplayer faction anymore and simple fluff, but that reaaaally wouldn't work well with the current description ;)
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by doofus-01 »

Should they be given a "hawk attack?" Or should they have a branch that has one? It could be interesting, or it could end up being silly.

In any case, I too would have thought the fluff referred to some game-play aspect.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by octalot »

How about "The hawks do not join in battle. For their primary role as messengers flying over hostile territory, these birds are trained to avoid contact with enemy forces."
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Hejnewar »

doofus-01 wrote: February 29th, 2020, 1:27 pm Should they be given a "hawk attack?" Or should they have a branch that has one? It could be interesting, or it could end up being silly.

In any case, I too would have thought the fluff referred to some game-play aspect.
I think this should be new branch for skirmisher. Level 2 + flacon related ability - distract most probably and maybe increased vision range. I can even see this as an attack that takes away zoc of target but name of special that does that is stun and it doesnt really fit. Also distract on low xp level up might be too strong. Maybe you have better ideas for it?

Anyway if there is sprite and positive feedback I can see this happening.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

I still think it makes more sense for the falcon unit to represent a harrier's hawk… it means you don't get hawks in MP, mind you… but describing the hawks as primarily non-combat assets might work. Portraying them as a scout which grants increased vision (but not increased movement) could be cool!
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by doofus-01 »

Hejnewar wrote: February 29th, 2020, 3:39 pm
doofus-01 wrote: February 29th, 2020, 1:27 pm Should they be given a "hawk attack?" Or should they have a branch that has one? It could be interesting, or it could end up being silly.

In any case, I too would have thought the fluff referred to some game-play aspect.
I think this should be new branch for skirmisher. Level 2 + flacon related ability - distract most probably and maybe increased vision range. I can even see this as an attack that takes away zoc of target but name of special that does that is stun and it doesnt really fit. Also distract on low xp level up might be too strong. Maybe you have better ideas for it?

Anyway if there is sprite and positive feedback I can see this happening.
Distract or something like that makes sense - a Goliath facing some doomed grunt can't ignore the hostile woman that just slipped behind and can call down a raptor strike from above - three points of focus is too many. I'll submit a PR if I can back it up with anything concrete. If it's too powerful, it can be a stunted branch like the Deathblade vs Revenant.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: March 1st, 2020, 3:11 am I still think it makes more sense for the falcon unit to represent a harrier's hawk… it means you don't get hawks in MP, mind you… but describing the hawks as primarily non-combat assets might work.Portraying them as a scout which grants increased vision (but not increased movement) could be cool!
One doesn't have to rule out the other. Could be that hawks/rocs/whateve need to be free and independent after some juvenile stage, but still have some loyalty to the dunefolk handler.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Hejnewar »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: March 1st, 2020, 3:11 am I still think it makes more sense for the falcon unit to represent a harrier's hawk… it means you don't get hawks in MP, mind you… but describing the hawks as primarily non-combat assets might work. Portraying them as a scout which grants increased vision (but not increased movement) could be cool!
Harrier could have increased vision range because she is using her hawk in order to scout but other possible line could use her hawk in order to help her fight or hawk could belong only to this new line granting both benefits. Whichever unit gets it, will be first unit in default+ to have different movement and vision ranges.
doofus-01 wrote: March 1st, 2020, 4:58 am Distract or something like that makes sense - a Goliath facing some doomed grunt can't ignore the hostile woman that just slipped behind and can call down a raptor strike from above - three points of focus is too many. I'll submit a PR if I can back it up with anything concrete. If it's too powerful, it can be a stunted branch like the Deathblade vs Revenant.
Stunted branch does work for campaigns but doesn't for MP. Because of that I would sugest branching it from level 3 or giving it this ablility on level 3, level 2 really requires very small amount of xp so equaly there is not a lot of room for new things there. Well whatever you come up with I will try to balance that if necessary with as little interference in desing as possible.
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