Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 24th, 2019, 1:55 am

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am
Well, a unit with two daggers named: Slasher. But a description says about archery and a portrait displays a naga with a bow in hands. Descriptions says nothing about daggers and why this unit is called Slasher. Given that I really see that far more logical would be to have a sprite of lvl1 naga wearing a dagger in one hand and a bow in another. And same for other two levels, given these two sprites are painted already anycase. This would remove obvious contradictions with Myrmidon line, descriptions of which are accented on mastery of the style of two swords.
But for me, the name "dervish" is predicated on the use of two swords, so removing that would in my opinion make the name less suitable.
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 1:57 pm
Instead of creating lines with clear logic you created a second meaning of word whirl, describing Bladewhirlers as those who change their sides, so this is some kind of a dance between sides? I assess this second meaning as clear stretching, but moreover, you create huge problems for translators most of whom wouldn't be able even to guess about your double meaning, and if they do, they would have problems with translating it as now do I.
Eh? I don't know what you're talking about? I see nothing in the description that suggests their apparent penchant for switching sides has anything to do with the "whirl" in their name.
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 23rd, 2019, 8:32 am
And of course I would have to create my own descriptions in Russian, that would fit both sprites and names. And everything would be quite logical (except portraits of course, but given them going to be changed according to sprites then everything would be ok).
Well, um, I probably can't stop you from completely rewriting the descriptions, but I would strongly recommend not doing so. You're just going to create even more confusion.

And I don't think you should assume portraits will be changed to match sprites. In some cases, it could be the other way around, where a sprite is changed to match the portrait. Or both could be changed to better match the description.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Pentarctagon » October 24th, 2019, 4:15 am

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 23rd, 2019, 8:32 am
And of course I would have to create my own descriptions in Russian, that would fit both sprites and names.
If you're going to create your own descriptions, I'd really suggest proposing them for mainline. I don't think anyone would probably stop you, but a translation isn't supposed to be "I'll write whatever I want because I disagree with what's there".
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 1:55 am
And I don't think you should assume portraits will be changed to match sprites. In some cases, it could be the other way around, where a sprite is changed to match the portrait. Or both could be changed to better match the description.
Well, the Dunefolk only have a single portrait right now anyway (the Herbalist), which I don't think has been brought up here. So I assume all the portraits would be done to match the sprites anyway, once LordBob or someone else is available to create them.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 24th, 2019, 4:19 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:15 am
Well, the Dunefolk only have a single portrait right now anyway (the Herbalist), which I don't think has been brought up here. So I assume all the portraits would be done to match the sprites anyway, once LordBob or someone else is available to create them.
True, but I think he was talking about the nagas there...
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by josteph » October 24th, 2019, 5:06 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:15 am
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 23rd, 2019, 8:32 am
And of course I would have to create my own descriptions in Russian, that would fit both sprites and names.
If you're going to create your own descriptions, I'd really suggest proposing them for mainline. I don't think anyone would probably stop you, but a translation isn't supposed to be "I'll write whatever I want because I disagree with what's there".
Absolutely agreed. If you disagree with the text, then propose a revision for mainline. If the revision is accepted, great, everyone's happy. If it's rejected, you can fork Wesnoth and in your fork use your revision for both English and Russian...but so long as you don't do that, you should translate the English text even if you disagree with it (or you can refrain from translating it entirely, of course). When you translate Wesnoth to Russian, you don't get to change the lore that has been agreed on.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Pentarctagon » October 24th, 2019, 5:50 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:19 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:15 am
Well, the Dunefolk only have a single portrait right now anyway (the Herbalist), which I don't think has been brought up here. So I assume all the portraits would be done to match the sprites anyway, once LordBob or someone else is available to create them.
True, but I think he was talking about the nagas there...
Ah, right. Still, that'd be only a single portrait for the Slasher - the Bladewhirler and Dervish re-use the same portrait and should ideally get their own, and the Ringcaster and Zephyr don't have any portrait.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 24th, 2019, 6:29 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 1:55 am
But for me, the name "dervish" is predicated on the use of two swords, so removing that would in my opinion make the name less suitable.
I would happy if it would be so, but if see no signs of that meaning even in English if you search yahoo images, for example.
In Russian there is a word Dervish and it means wandering muslim monk, even a saint. So when you use this name for some naga mercenary, this looks at least strange, if not offensive to some groups. Looks as quite unsuitable word for a fantasy game that is declared to be free of religion.
josteph wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 5:06 am
When you translate Wesnoth to Russian, you don't get to change the lore that has been agreed on.
I totally have no desire to do so.
But listen to me, please. When translating unit names, often, even in most cases, it is impossible to translate the names of units literally. There is no chance I can translate such word as Bladewhirler to Russian directly. Moreover, as I said in Russian we have different system of unit naming, with using unique name for every unit, without a race prefix. That is partly because Russian words are long and names often are long enough even without prefixes. What is Longbowman in English, in Russian is literally "An archer with a long bow". I heard that such system (with unique names) exists also in translations of Wesnoth to other languages. So in any case, me and previous translators had to "invent" new names. But when we do it, we are looking to descriptions as a guide to understand how to "translate" the name of the unit correctly. So that really makes me quite unsatisfied when I see that the description of the unit do not describe the sprite and the name of the unit in any degree. When I see the description of Bladewhirler I can conclude that I should name this unit as Mercenary. Trying to be close to the name I could guess something like 'Blade for hire' though there is no simple way to translate this into Russian. Still there is nothing about 'whirling with two sickle-type blades' here. As you see, this description have nothing to do with how this naga looks like, how it differs from other nagas of different lines and how it is improved compared to the previous level of this unit (the coherent system I always was speaking about). I would really prefer to see that the descriptions would fit sprites/names and would help the translator to understand how to translate the name of the unit correctly.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 24th, 2019, 12:14 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 6:29 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 1:55 am
But for me, the name "dervish" is predicated on the use of two swords, so removing that would in my opinion make the name less suitable.
I would happy if it would be so, but if see no signs of that meaning even in English if you search yahoo images, for example.
In Russian there is a word Dervish and it means wandering muslim monk, even a saint. So when you use this name for some naga mercenary, this looks at least strange, if not offensive to some groups. Looks as quite unsuitable word for a fantasy game that is declared to be free of religion.
Try doing an image search for "dervish fantasy"; when I do that I get quite a few with dual swords. I also got one image that suggests an alternate name that might help for translation: "blade dancer".
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 24th, 2019, 1:59 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Try doing an image search for "dervish fantasy"; when I do that I get quite a few with dual swords.
I also see many images with big scythes too.
Probably in modern games the word Dervish got a new meaning but I must admit that I do not play modern games.
For me Dervishes is a sect of wandering muslims, that is all. At least if I look into wikipedia, it says that I am right.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 12:14 pm
I also got one image that suggests an alternate name that might help for translation: "blade dancer".
So we start it again.
Of course I had that meaning in my mind. But if you look into descriptions, it is a Myrmidon who described as a blade dancer and several years ago I even wanted to rename Myrmidon to Blade Dancer because of it, but in Russian this is too long phrase, really (Танцующий с мечами), so people did not like it. From the other side, both Bladewhirler and Dervish descriptions says nothing about dances, sickle swords and double weapon style. It is about the daily life of a mercenary. So I am asking again, where is logic here?
If you do not understand what I am speaking about, then it cannot be helped. If you understand, you have to agree that something must be changed.

I can agree even with so religious looking for me Dervish, if the using of this word is justified in the proper way. For example it is possible to write that this is a different sect, other than Myrmidons of northern nagas, and they practice different views and things in this sect, including using different swords. So see, here already are two different sects, so this creates some system on which many interesting things can be fantasized.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Edwylm » October 24th, 2019, 10:17 pm

I think I understand what Aldarisvet is saying about names and descriptions. Bladewhirler and Dervish descriptions has nothing regarding their names. But it should be an easy fix to those. Mainly just add how their got their name.

Myrmidon from what I have read the description is an observation, so dance is fair to use even if their are units that have "dance" in their name. In references there are quite a bit of swordsmen state that sword play is a type of dance and dancing is suppose to help train in footwork. Regardless names and descriptions are not just one point of view its like notes and writings from many people which adds lore but makes things a bit confusing.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 25th, 2019, 2:25 am

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 1:59 pm
but in Russian this is too long phrase, really (Танцующий с мечами),
And there's no ways to shorten it without losing the meaning? Google tells me that this phrase translates as "dancing with swords", which would be too long in English as well. Does Russian not have affixes or word compounding conventions that you could use to coin a shorter word that a native speaker would recognize as meaning something like "blade dancer"? This obviously depends on the language (I know nothing of Russian grammar or morphology so I can't say how well it applies), but sometimes the best translation might actually involve making up a new word.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 25th, 2019, 7:55 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 25th, 2019, 2:25 am
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 1:59 pm
but in Russian this is too long phrase, really (Танцующий с мечами),
And there's no ways to shorten it without losing the meaning? Google tells me that this phrase translates as "dancing with swords", which would be too long in English as well. Does Russian not have affixes or word compounding conventions that you could use to coin a shorter word that a native speaker would recognize as meaning something like "blade dancer"? This obviously depends on the language (I know nothing of Russian grammar or morphology so I can't say how well it applies), but sometimes the best translation might actually involve making up a new word.
It is possible to create new words in Russian but it would not always look good. Often people do not like such innovations.
For example, to reflect a new meaning of Swiftrider/Windrider I was forced to create a new word Лихострел which can be translated as 'dashing shooter'.
There was a problem with this because there is a word Скорострел which can be translated as 'swift shooter' but in Russian it means a man who always finishes his sex too quickly :shock:

Also, btw, direct transliteration of zephyr in Russian means marshmallow. I know Zephyr means a West wind, so (according to description!!!) unit Zephyr can be translated as Wind's servant or Servant of ether. In any case we almost do no use direct transliterations because this looks quite stupid and there is nothing 'mysterious' in it.

So there are often really big problems with translating names of units into Russian (in any language I can suggest) but this is our internal problem. What I am asking for is consistency in descriptions according to sprites/names. Which also means that description must reflect the position of the unit in its line and also take into account the position of the line among other lines of that unit's race.

I can suggest some rough points to modify the descriptions of Slasher, for beginning:
1. South nagas are not fully melee oriented compared to southern and can use bows (already reflected in description).
2. They are not quite good archers though and still prefer melee combat, arrows are used just to weaken enemy a bit (partly reflected already).
3. As their northern brethren they still (and even more) prefer two sword style and even unexperienced nagas are using two daggers, that because they are named Slashers.

As you see, really just a bit of correction is needed just to to rearrange accents, so it would pave the way to develop descriptions further for lvl2 and lvl3 units.
Also I was told they have liminal alignment compared to northern neutrals and this must be reflected too.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by nemaara » October 30th, 2019, 5:39 pm

FYI, changing some unit names as listed here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4520. I think I'm likely to put them in as they're listed now. Still up for consideration: Dervish, Horse Archer (Swiftrider).

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 30th, 2019, 6:51 pm

nemaara wrote:
October 30th, 2019, 5:39 pm
FYI, changing some unit names as listed here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4520. I think I'm likely to put them in as they're listed now. Still up for consideration: Dervish, Horse Archer (Swiftrider).
Thank you.
I had exactly the same idea about Horse Archer at lvl2 (it could be on lvl1 actually looking on stats but nothing in description of lvl1 says about archery and, opposite, archery is accented in Swiftrider's description).
And about nagas, I think that some global lore must be created about nagas at first, then it can be extrapolated down to descriptions. For now desriptions are too unsystematic.
I think something must be written about naga society, not representing them as only some bandits or mercenaries. Also describing how southern and northen nagas became divided (they really going to fight each other), etc.
As I suggested, it can be a good idea that naga society divided into several semi-religious sects/orders, as in ancient India. Nagas are from Indian mythology at the end.

Zephyr description is an example of a group devoted to wind spirits can be good example for beginning.

Concerning Wayfarer - of course it is better than Ranger given how Human and Elvish Rangers look like. But for me both Explorer and Wayfarer is a bit too toothless names. For a unit who in lvl3 can deal 64 total damage per turn (melee+ranged, for example melee in defence+ranged in offence or opposite). No one unit in the faction has so much total damage as "Ranger". Also he has quite a lot of HP and 6MP. I think he can kill any unit of the faction except probably of Cataphract (and probably even him if he attacks first given Cataphract is vulnerable to pierce). Probably it is a best lvl3 unit in the game for now, except Elvish High Lord, who is really a cheating unit with his magical attacks for that price.

_______________________

Edit:

My description of Naga Slaher, translated back into English from Russian (the quality of English as it is)

Southern Naga (in Russian it is going to be literally Southern Naga)

In contrast to the heavily melee-focused style of their northern brethren, young Naga of the southern tribes prefer to carry small bows, with which they used to pepper their prey with arrows before attacking them in close combat. For that Naga of the North, having somewhat similar views as their allies-orcs, often consider Southern nagas as cowardly, but this is not true. Southern Nagas are simply more practical - wounding the enemy with ranged attacks is usually much less dangerous than rushing headlong directly into the fray. But this does not mean that the southern Nagas prefer to refrain from close combat. In fact, they still shoot with a bow much worse than archers of other races, and in fencing with two swords they only slightly inferior to the Northern Nagas. Even the inexperienced Nagas of the South prefer to fight with daggers - one in each hand.

The style of fencing of the southern Nagas is necessarily different. They, like the warriors of Dunefolk, can fight their best only at the dawn and at the sunset, so they are accustomed to a less assertive, but more maneuverable combat.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by luyue » November 2nd, 2019, 4:33 am

my idea for the dune strider description
In battle,sometimes attackers will leave a way for the surrounded to flee.However,it is a trap.When the soldier decide to run desperately,his or her courage will disappear and it is quite easy to catch and slay him or her.but as far as dune striders are concerned,they would smile at their enemy,and retreat easily,even finishe some wound enemies when they leave
oh,if you accept my description
here is a translation for Chinese
在战斗中,攻击者时有一种故意放开一面的战术,以求让敌人在绝望中仓皇出逃,进而击垮他们的士气,让解决他们异常容易,,可是,对于这些dune strider来说,她们不会盲目地逃跑,被黏住,脱身不得,她们只会在敌人的围困中进退自如,甚至找到机会解决虚弱的敌人,然后全身而退

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » November 2nd, 2019, 6:50 pm

Translating Sunderer...

______________
Among the many different type of Dune horsemen, there are those who most enjoy the frantic melee at the heart of battle. Those who are so disposed—and skilled enough to survive multiple skirmishes—are recruited into the ranks of the Sunderers. As sturdy, robust warriors, these men usually bear short-ranged maces, a rather odd choice of weaponry for most riders...
______________

Really odd choice, given lvl1 Rider uses maces and also alternative branch of Swiftrider (Horse Archer now) uses maces too :augh:

Obviously this description must be reworked.
For now I put in the descriptions (in Russian) that "Usually these strong warriors, like most of the riders of Dunefolk, prefer to use battle maces. It's a weapon for close combat, which looks like a pretty strange choice for riders of other races..."

Well, that is rare case, in most cases I found that descriptions are good enough :D


____________________________________________

Translating Warmaster...

I find it quite unusial that Warmasters are leaders of battles, whenever Captains a more of tacticians. That looks like reverse of usual logic and things described for leaders for other races. Well, could be good idea to have this inversion just for not repeating the same.

Just one comment about this
"Said to be a veteran of a thousand battles, a Warmaster is an expert leader that should never be underestimated."
Obviously Dunefolk leaders are far from being best fighers compared other units. So it looks strange that leaders that always inspires his soldiers "at the forefront of battle" are able to survive "a thousand battles".

So I think it would be good to give some explanation about high survivability of Warmasters in description. It could be so because soldiers admire his Warmasters so much that common soldiers who fights near Warmasters often do everything to cover their leaders, including sacrificing their lives for them. So that is the secret why Warmasters could survive so much battles actually.

____________________________________________

Translating Windrider (or Windbolt) ...

In Russian I translated them as Dashing Shooters so I added some things into description to justfy the name (auto translation from Russian)

Archery on horseback causes a number of additional difficulties that very few are able to overcome. What distinguishes the famous Dashing Shooters from other archers, is their ability not only to overcome these difficulties, but also to turn them into advantages. When shooting from the saddle, the speed of the horse is added to the speed given to the arrow by the bow, which provides the shot with additional force of impact. In addition, by moving along the front line, these archers actually create a side wind for their shots, bending the trajectories of their arrows in such a way that they reach targets that could not have been achieved otherwise. Having mastered their skills to perfection, Dashing Shooters tend to behave in front of the enemy extremely brazenly, shooting enemies from close enough to their shots reached the target, but not close enough to the enemy arrows could cause them damage. This game, however, is not without risk, sometimes a stray arrow is able to get a dashing rider, but the loss on the other hand is usually still more. It is because of their bold manner of infuriating the enemy Dashing Shooters got their name.

____________________________________________

Transalating Ringcaster

"the process of forging a chakram underwater is quite tricky"

Very dubious statement.
Because according to the race description
"they are not true creatures of the sea, and their inability to breathe water leaves them in trepidation of the abyss".

How the hell you can forge something underwater if you cannot breathe underwater?
Aside from the fact that forging anything underwater is completely impossible. Because you cannot heat anything when the water is around that thing.
Also as I remember (from some mainline campaign, was it the Rise of Wesnoth) Nagas do not forge anything but buy weapons from other races. Obviously southern nagas could easely order any type of chakram they need from their allies Dunefolk. So, sorry to say this, but this description is complete failure.

_____________________________________________

OMG, I found a mistake in Hoplite description!!!

With their towering shields, the Merman Hoplites form the elite guard of the watery realm. Their powerful armor and rigid discipline allow them to hold a steadfast line in the maelstrom of battle. In times of desperation, they can even do so on land, though not nearly as well as a creature with legs

Hoplites were wearing tower shields in some ancient times of Wesnoth - https://units.wesnoth.org/1.4/C/Merman%20Hoplite.html
But for now they are wearing something like a middle shield, no more than that (what real Hoplites were really wearing). Bot the word 'towering' still in the text as the whole description remained intact.
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