Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 16th, 2019, 11:33 am

Just to clear a small thing up - while the shape of the "scales" from the Ranger the CTP might look the same, mounted Cataphract never actually gave chainmail to their horses. It was more a very small plates sticked together. I assume you could call that scale armour. Spaceinvader (who I think drew the horse for that unit line) never intended to make it a chainmail, but because he decided them to make them as close as they were in reality, they ended up looking like chainmail. I decided to make the scale a bit bigger on CTP to no longer have them to be confused with chainmail.

They do resemble in form with the Ranger's but the different colour pattern (which I chose on purpose) suggest different materials. The CTP scales are more blue-metalic with gold for higher grade metal with golden ornaments while Ranger has more yellow-white tint for it either leather, clothing or indeed feathers - but no metal.
Realistically, for the Ranger to have an armour with such big scales made of metal would really be impracticable.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 16th, 2019, 12:38 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 11:15 am
Yeah in your comparison I can clearly see that Ranger is wearing something other than chainmal.
Of course Ranger is not wearing chainmail skirt. He is wearing a skirt made of metal plates. :augh:
They are metal because they are look like metal and also because lvl2 unit wearing a metal chain. Logic? If lvl2 wearing metal than lvl3 cannot wear leather.
But of course this metal plates are easily can be recolored to look like leather. But this will not work for Explorer.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 16th, 2019, 12:44 pm

josteph wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 3:40 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 1:49 am
Still, even if it does impact balance, I think coherence of theme is more important than balance.
You might be on the minority on this one.
True enough.
ghype wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 7:57 am
As for the Swiftrider and Raider, the "swift" might as well refer to the archery of that unit,
That's really stretching it.
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 9:19 am
That is old Sunderer. The horse is wearing a lot of metal chainmail armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... derer.html

Now this is new Cataphract. The horse here obviously is wearing a large leather armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/master/mainlin ... hract.html
The sunderer does look more like a cataphract to me, but I'm not confident in saying that the new cataphract is wearing leather… still, it might be a little too "golden" in colour.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 16th, 2019, 12:56 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 9:19 am
That is old Sunderer. The horse is wearing a lot of metal chainmail armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... derer.html
That is the part I actually wanted to clear up. That is not supposed to be chainmail. That's supposed to be scale armour or call it small-plated armour (dunno the right terminology). If you do a quick google search, you will see that CTP never wore chain mail.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 16th, 2019, 1:58 pm

ghype wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 12:56 pm
That is the part I actually wanted to clear up. That is not supposed to be chainmail. That's supposed to be scale armour or call it small-plated armour (dunno the right terminology).
I agree, I do emphasis on that this is metal armor and that metal armor all over old khalifate fraction was painted with the same way. It is impossible to distinguish in wesnoth sprites what type of armor it was exactly, but the color says it was metal.

Just look at the main picture here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataphract

What you did, is that you actually made Cataphract less Cataphract because of changing metal to leather. However I like new sprites with leather armor.
In old kalifate faction units were wearing a lot of metal armor while in the new one I see only Raider, Explorer and Ranger wearing it.

_______________________________________________________

I also want to add that I am not interested in this discussion much anymore. I found much better solution. You know, we in Russian translation have another system with unique names for every unit, without constant repeating of Skirmishers, Soldiers, Explorer and Rangers, so I am looking first not on names but on descriptions. With now both names and descriptions failed suiting sprites I decided I will do them myself in my language.

I needed unique names for Dunefolk units anycase. And I found them. I found a beautiful solution.
I would name Skirmisher as Bedouin because sprites of this line looks exactly as of desert dwellers.
I would name Horse Archer as Nomad because Horses cannot live in desert, they need grass to eat, so obviosuly Dunfolks have steppe lands and Nomads live there like mongolian nomads.
And I would name Rover as Highlander because even arabian/southern people have their own Swiss-like mountain tough guys. Look at the modern war in Yemen with housits against saudis. Saudis are bedouins and Yemens are Highlanders (they are different) because there are a lot of mountains in the south of Arabian peninsula, it is not consists only of desert. In Russia we had Circassian highlanders and their warriors exactly did look like these so called Explorer and Ranger.

And other units would be from dwellers of Dunefolk cities. For example - Soldier - it is a unit of regular city army, not of some wild land would it be desert, steppe or mountains. And I would explain and develop these in descriptions.

_______________________________________________________

Also I want to add that I find quite doubtful this description of Strider.
http://units.wesnoth.org/master/mainlin ... rider.html
To use bolas to slow retreating army, really? In all times a cavalry was used to finish running enemies.

I think that such type of units and their bolas could be quite effective to stop flanking attacks of cavalry. If you throw bolas at the riders, it can has an effect, because horses have long legs and you have a chance to hit successfully, then the legs will get tangled. I am speaking not gamewise, but in terms of descriptions so they would look plausible from the point of view of reality. So I see different role for Skirmisher line units in descriptions - as scouts and flank patrols and flank defenders. Also I think that description about a Roc hunting and a fast journey through desert is going to fit best for lvl3 Skirmisher (especially given he has fantastic 7MP). Obviously spears are far better weapon to tackle with giant creatures than axes.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 18th, 2019, 12:45 pm

ghype wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 12:56 pm
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 16th, 2019, 9:19 am
That is old Sunderer. The horse is wearing a lot of metal chainmail armor.
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/ ... derer.html
That is the part I actually wanted to clear up. That is not supposed to be chainmail. That's supposed to be scale armour or call it small-plated armour (dunno the right terminology). If you do a quick google search, you will see that CTP never wore chain mail.
I guess the complaint about the new sprite is more about its colour – perhaps you intended it to be a bronze sort of metal, but it does kinda look like leather. It'd probably be better to make it grey like the original. The larger plates are fine, only the colour is confusing.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by shadowm » October 18th, 2019, 8:23 pm

It is shaded very clearly like metal to me.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 19th, 2019, 8:13 pm

I have one little question.
Skirmisher line sprites looks female and also are coded as female-only units in unit files.
Is this intentionally that there is no explanation (even hint) of why these units are female-only in descriptions?
I know that from equality point of view, it can be said that if there is no explanation of while some units are male only, then why to explain this case?
But still it is a fantasy medieval game, so for me probably it would be better to be explained that these units are something like amazons.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » October 19th, 2019, 10:23 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 19th, 2019, 8:13 pm
I know that from equality point of view, it can be said that if there is no explanation of while some units are male only, then why to explain this case?
This.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
October 13th, 2019, 6:05 pm
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 8:12 am
Nope, the description tells about archery whenever in the base frame of the unit you even cannot see that this naga has a bow equipped!
You have a point here, the naga should probably have a bow slung across its back, at least.
It has a bow slung across its back!

While translating I started dealing with nagas for now and see that it has, but you can barely guess that the line across naga's body is a string of a bow if you do not pay attention. I totally missed that there is a bow here for several first times I saw the sprite. Well, aside from that, this is very inconvenient way to wear a bow because with time a bowstring starts cutting your shoulder. I had real practice myself (though with a bowstring at the back and a bow at the front you at least look less stupid). Bow is often attached to the quiver (as in sprites of Nagas of higher levels). But in both cases you cannot get it fast to your hands.

Well, a unit with two daggers named: Slasher. But a description says about archery and a portrait displays a naga with a bow in hands. Descriptions says nothing about daggers and why this unit is called Slasher. Given that I really see that far more logical would be to have a sprite of lvl1 naga wearing a dagger in one hand and a bow in another. And same for other two levels, given these two sprites are painted already anycase. This would remove obvious contradictions with Myrmidon line, descriptions of which are accented on mastery of the style of two swords.

And with names, I decided to translate/name base units of two lines simply as Southern Naga and Northern Naga (given names Fighter and Slasher already used for other units and in Russian lvl1 of the old line was named simply Naga, as lvl1 Troll is now named simply Troll even in English).
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 22nd, 2019, 12:52 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am
Well, a unit with two daggers named: Slasher. But a description says about archery and a portrait displays a naga with a bow in hands.
Unit is using same portrait as UtbS Naga as it visually would fit, but it is considered a placeholder atm.
In case the unit design is not yet clear, this naga is supposed to have the role of a mixed fighter. The base frame is showing it in melee. But that was a decision of practicability .

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 22nd, 2019, 1:57 pm

ghype wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 12:52 pm
Aldarisvet wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am
Well, a unit with two daggers named: Slasher. But a description says about archery and a portrait displays a naga with a bow in hands.
Unit is using same portrait as UtbS Naga as it visually would fit, but it is considered a placeholder atm.
In case the unit design is not yet clear, this naga is supposed to have the role of a mixed fighter. The base frame is showing it in melee. But that was a decision of practicability .
If he is a mixed fighter than he should has name other than Slasher (because it is a melee-oriented name) and have a bow in his hand. Explorer is a good example of wielding both bow and axe.

I may tend to be quite annoying with my critics but this because I get huge problems while translating. Every inconsistency in English names and descriptions creates huge problems. Also I am kinda perfectionist and I prefer sound logic in units lines.

I see logic in Ringcaster - Zephir.

But I cant see logic in Bladewhirler - Dervish.
Why Dervish? Dervishes are monks. Yes, dervishes can demonstrate whirling dances, and even with swords. But you you didn't say anything about dances in descriptions! Both for Dervish and Bladewhirler.

From the other side there is a Myrmidon and in the description there is a phrase: "They strike as fast as the snakes which they resemble, and dance away from attacks with grace".

Actually it is Myrmidon who should be named Dervish! At least would be a sense in this name (yea I know this southern name will not fit for northern nagas, just from point of view of dance it will fit). For now there is absolutely no logic why Naga Warrior advances to Myrmidon.

Instead of creating lines with clear logic you created a second meaning of word whirl, describing Bladewhirlers as those who change their sides, so this is some kind of a dance between sides? I assess this second meaning as clear stretching, but moreover, you create huge problems for translators most of whom wouldn't be able even to guess about your double meaning, and if they do, they would have problems with translating it as now do I.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Pentarctagon » October 22nd, 2019, 11:27 pm

The Elvish Fighter also does not have a visible bow, for the record.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by ghype » October 23rd, 2019, 8:23 am

I do not really know how much more I can say to this. You are now basically saying that other mainline should be changed too ( dervish thing ), while other arguments of yours fall short ( ranger and bow) as many other units considered mixed fighter do not have both weapons drawn in their base frame.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Unit Descriptions

Post by Aldarisvet » October 23rd, 2019, 8:32 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 11:27 pm
The Elvish Fighter also does not have a visible bow, for the record.
But there is also an Elvish Archer! Fighters are more melee-oriented so it is logical that their sprites and portraits accented on swords whenever Archers accented on Bows.
Everything is known in comparison.

Now look at the description of Slasher:
_____________________________
In contrast to the heavily melee-focused style of their northern brethren, young Naga of the southern tribes prefer to carry small bows, with which they used to pepper their prey with arrows. While finishing off any water-based enemies usually must be done at close range, softening foes with ranged attacks is usually much less dangerous than rushing headlong directly into the fray. Sometimes viewed as cowardly by more proper Naga warriors, these fighters are nonetheless effective when it comes time to engage in warfare.
_____________________________

This description looks like a description of pure ranged unit! Could you really guess that this unit is called Slasher given the description above?
As I wrote, I see major inconsistency between sprites/names/descriptions of northern nagas and sprites/names/descriptions of Dervish line of southern nagas.

For now we have in fact that Dervish line is a line of two sword style nagas like northern ones, but with that little difference that they wield khopesh-like swords and also they have some archery skills, but they are far from being good archers (looking to damage). So descriptions must say exactly about all that. You may write, for example, why southern nagas prefer these original swords. Instead of that we have absolutely unfitting and needless descriptions of Dervish line like mercenaries. Does that mean that Myrmidons or Zephir cannot be mercenaries?

What is an example of good coherent descriptions? That one of Drakes. There are 4 different castes of drakes and each line explains a role of each caste in drake society. There is a system in all lines of this race, in sprites, names and descriptions of units, the system both in horizontal (between lines) and in vertical (how unit advances within the caste) dimensions. Such system I cannot see here with new dunefolk and nagas.

________________

EDIT: I decided that I would translate, or more directly said, name, Bladewhirler as Reaper in Russian. Because of sickle-type sword he is using. Then it would be logical to name lvl3 unit as Ripper, because this word means something more aggressive and dangerous (in Russian it is so at least). And of course I would have to create my own descriptions in Russian, that would fit both sprites and names. And everything would be quite logical (except portraits of course, but given them going to be changed according to sprites then everything would be ok).
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