Elf Inconsistency

For writers working on documentation, story prose, announcements, and all kinds of Wesnoth text.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
gweddeoran
Posts: 120
Joined: December 19th, 2014, 6:03 am
Location: Estmark Hills

Elf Inconsistency

Post by gweddeoran » May 6th, 2019, 2:35 am

In TRoW, Lord Elsomithir is an Elvish Marshal. In LoW, which happens a while after this campaign, he is demoted to an Elvish Hero without 'Lord' as a title. Further, the Council of Elves has glaring inconsistencies when one compares its composition from TRoW to LoW. It can't be that so many of them died between the two campaigns.
Perhaps we could change the name of the Elvish Hero to something else. Also, it turns out Elsomithir is still a part of the Council in LoW, but now uses the Elvish Lord default portrait instead of the one he had exclusively for himself in TRoW.
Similarly, Uraderedia's portrait is not used when he is met in HttT.

User avatar
shadowm
Site Administrator
Posts: 6542
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by shadowm » May 6th, 2019, 2:46 am

gweddeoran wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:35 am
Similarly, Uraderedia's portrait is not used when he is met in HttT.
Back in the day when LoW was originally written (think 2005), we hadn’t formally defined the elves’ lifespan to be limited to 250-300 years, so it’s extremely likely that the Uradredia that appears in LoW was intended to be the same person who shows up in HttT’s elven council scenario. However, since HttT takes place much far later (about 498 years later I believe) than when he shows up in LoW, there is no way for him to be the same elf. I remember that back when LoW was added to mainline I suggested to use the same portrait and it was shot down for this reason — it was precisely around that time that the elvish lifespan was finally set in stone.

So it really boils down to whether we can expect players to not mind the fact that there can be multiple people called Steve, or just change one of the Uradredias’ name for their convenience.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

User avatar
gweddeoran
Posts: 120
Joined: December 19th, 2014, 6:03 am
Location: Estmark Hills

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by gweddeoran » May 6th, 2019, 2:48 am

Maybe we could change the me since it might confuse players.
What about the Elsomithir inconsistencies?

User avatar
josteph
Developer
Posts: 537
Joined: August 19th, 2017, 6:58 pm

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by josteph » May 6th, 2019, 4:05 pm

shadowm wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:46 am
Back in the day when LoW was originally written (think 2005), we hadn’t formally defined the elves’ lifespan to be limited to 250-300 years, so it’s extremely likely that the Uradredia that appears in LoW was intended to be the same person who shows up in HttT’s elven council scenario. However, since HttT takes place much far later (about 498 years later I believe) than when he shows up in LoW, there is no way for him to be the same elf.
Doesn't that also apply to Kalenz? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... fg#L19-L22

User avatar
shadowm
Site Administrator
Posts: 6542
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by shadowm » May 6th, 2019, 4:21 pm

josteph wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:05 pm
Doesn't that also apply to Kalenz? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... fg#L19-L22
If you played LoW you’d know why Kalenz is an exception. :P
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1449
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 10th, 2019, 11:55 am

There's no need to come up with different names for Elsomithir or Uradredias, as it could be an indication that they are descended from the council members of TRoW, but it would be simpler than trying to indicate in other ways that they are not the same person.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
shadowm
Site Administrator
Posts: 6542
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by shadowm » May 10th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 11:55 am
There's no need to come up with different names for Elsomithir or Uradredias, as it could be an indication that they are descended from the council members of TRoW, but it would be simpler than trying to indicate in other ways that they are not the same person.
Uh.

LoW begins 20 years after TRoW, so any appearances by El’Isomithir early on are most likely supposed to be the same character, therefore he should be using the same portrait he uses in TRoW. Uradredia is not present in TRoW.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1449
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 11th, 2019, 1:02 pm

So is the lack of Uradredia in TRoW the problem then? Anyway I meant Uradredia in HTTT since you mentioned they also appear there.

It did seem like the original poster was proposing renaming Elsomithir in LoW though...
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
shadowm
Site Administrator
Posts: 6542
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by shadowm » May 11th, 2019, 9:24 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:02 pm
So is the lack of Uradredia in TRoW the problem then? Anyway I meant Uradredia in HTTT since you mentioned they also appear there.
He doesn’t need to be in TRoW. The issue is that there’s characters with his name both in LoW and in HttT despite there being a massive time gap between them.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:02 pm
It did seem like the original poster was proposing renaming Elsomithir in LoW though...
The name is El’Isomithir. There’s no need to rename him, he just needs to use the correct portrait.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

User avatar
gweddeoran
Posts: 120
Joined: December 19th, 2014, 6:03 am
Location: Estmark Hills

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by gweddeoran » May 12th, 2019, 1:58 am

What about his unit type- he's Marshal in TRoW and a Hero in LoW. Why not make him a Champion in both?

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1449
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Why champion? Why not marshal in both?
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
gweddeoran
Posts: 120
Joined: December 19th, 2014, 6:03 am
Location: Estmark Hills

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by gweddeoran » May 13th, 2019, 2:18 am

Play LoW, his ally in scenario 3 is Galtrid, a Captain. Secondly, later in the campaign, another Marshal is introduced to the Kalian, Eradion. The point of Elsomithir's presence was to give the player two different leaders, Galtrid, the leader sort, and Elsomithir, the warrior sort. Both could take turns recruiting while the other fights,gives leadership or both.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1449
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Elf Inconsistency

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 15th, 2019, 4:51 am

But it doesn't really make sense for El'Isomithir to change from a marshal to a champion, does it? I suppose lore-wise the difference is narrower than it is in mechanics, but still...
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Post Reply