Save the green trolls

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Argesilao

Save the green trolls

Post by Argesilao » April 23rd, 2019, 9:24 pm

Is it really a good thing to change the Burin's sentence about the troll in the starting dialogue of the scenario 17c of The Rise of Wesnoth campaign?

The old sencence "I indeed do. They are green and mean, and will try to crush you like a bug. They heal very quickly." is the last remaining testimony about the fact that in the 1.0 version of BfW, the trolls were green.

I think it would be nice to keep the Burin's original phrase, like a tribute to the primitive version of the game and the original trolls' shape and color.

Spixi
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by Spixi » May 5th, 2019, 9:30 am

Argesilao wrote:
April 23rd, 2019, 9:24 pm
Is it really a good thing to change the Burin's sentence about the troll in the starting dialogue of the scenario 17c of The Rise of Wesnoth campaign?

The old sencence "I indeed do. They are green and mean, and will try to crush you like a bug. They heal very quickly." is the last remaining testimony about the fact that in the 1.0 version of BfW, the trolls were green.

I think it would be nice to keep the Burin's original phrase, like a tribute to the primitive version of the game and the original trolls' shape and color.
As seen here, they were indeed green, but there are also possible rhymes for their current appearance. What about slay, weigh or ”They are gray/grey and gone astray.” or ”They are gray/grey and find their way.” or ”They are gray/grey and hunt their prey.”? (Other possibilities include slay, stray, obey ...)

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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 10th, 2019, 11:56 am

It doesn't really make sense to keep a line that's demonstrably false just as a tribute to an older version of the game.
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Argesilao

Re: Save the green trolls

Post by Argesilao » May 10th, 2019, 6:29 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 11:56 am
It doesn't really make sense to keep a line that's demonstrably false just as a tribute to an older version of the game.
Burin's sentence passed unharmed through 13 versions of Wesnoth; it is clearly a sign of destiny :roll: , so, why to change it just now?

Without the error in it, How will new players discover that in the past the trolls were green?

And then, why deny our past?

That sentence it's like a dinosaur fossil, or an archaeological find; is value is inestimable :eng:

For all these reasons, and others that I'm too lazy to write, I still give my cry of pain: let's save the green trolls!

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josteph
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by josteph » May 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Argesilao wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 6:29 pm
Without the error in it, How will new players discover that in the past the trolls were green?
Oh, that's obvious. Someone will write a campaign called The Rise of The Battle for Wesnoth which tells the history of BfW. In S3 the player fights with trolls of the current sprite against green trolls... in S15 the player commands a force of the rebalanced Dunefolk against the Khalifate... in S16 the player gets a choice, whether to start the bloody ascent to Godot Mountain, or to stay in the plains of their fathers and grandfathers... When you win the campaign you don't get a laurel, but a six-sided die...

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shadowm
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by shadowm » May 10th, 2019, 8:24 pm

This is definitely something we don’t need to keep. There’s no point in confusing players for the sake of a reference that makes no sense without meta information from outside the game.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

Argesilao

Re: Save the green trolls

Post by Argesilao » May 10th, 2019, 8:42 pm

josteph wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm
Oh, that's obvious. Someone will write a campaign called The Rise of The Battle for Wesnoth which tells the history of BfW. In S3 the player fights with trolls of the current sprite against green trolls... in S15 the player commands a force of the rebalanced Dunefolk against the Khalifate... in S16 the player gets a choice, whether to start the bloody ascent to Godot Mountain, or to stay in the plains of their fathers and grandfathers... When you win the campaign you don't get a laurel, but a six-sided die...
It could be an idea :hmm:
shadowm wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 8:24 pm
This is definitely something we don’t need to keep. There’s no point in confusing players for the sake of a reference that makes no sense without meta information from outside the game.
To be picky, any human activity would be impraticable without external meta informations :eng: even if I'm not sure to know what exactly is a meta information :?
In any case, let me say that change the Burin sentence is the death of romance in this game :cry:

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josteph
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by josteph » May 10th, 2019, 9:05 pm

Argesilao, references to popular culture content (that includes both non-wesnoth content and previous versions of wesnoth) shouldn't come at the expense of clarity to those who don't pick up the reference. In this case, what CelMin and shadowm are saying is that trolls in wesnoth 1.14 are not green, period.

It would be great to have some other reference to wesnoth 1.0, though :) Maybe some other line of dialog? Or, I don't know, if you beat the final scenario of HttT on the anniversary of wesnoth 1.0's release, then after the Konrad conversation, there's another message "Happy Anniversary, Wesnoth!" with Dave's photo for a portrait? I'm sure we can think of something...

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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by Konrad2 » May 10th, 2019, 9:18 pm

Argesilao wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 6:29 pm
Without the error in it, How will new players discover that in the past the trolls were green?
By looking it up here.

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shadowm
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Re: Save the green trolls

Post by shadowm » May 10th, 2019, 11:04 pm

Argesilao wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 8:42 pm
To be picky, any human activity would be impraticable without external meta informations :eng: even if I'm not sure to know what exactly is a meta information :?
It counts as meta because it constitutes information about the game (or the game’s history, in this particular case) that is not part of the game’s universe and is delivered in-universe. Or was, rather. Since you said is in the opening post I was under the mistaken assumption that this was still the case and needed to be addressed.

With that said, I think there’s nothing left to say on the matter that isn’t strictly-speaking a consequence of sentimental attachment to a 12 years old oversight.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

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