Saurian genders

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The_Gnat
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by The_Gnat » January 20th, 2019, 11:19 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 3:39 pm
...that's a bit racist and also missing the point. I think not having separate male and female names gives them some flavour in itself.
^_^ haha true, though I would say it is not racist rather instead specieist. However, I definitely agree with you that not having unique names adds flavour in of itself.
Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 8:06 pm
Well, that was an example of how simple it could be, rather than a full suggestion. If you wanted to give it depth, you could come up with a system that has a prefix for one's gender and suffix for one's class, or any other kind of more complex thing.
True, I did not mean to say that no other design would work. But as Celtic_Minstrel pointed not having different names also adds to backstory and saves time to implement.

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 21st, 2019, 3:38 am

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 8:06 pm
That makes sense, but I feel like seeing as there's clearly a gender divide in Saurian society, it would be logical for there to be different names in some way?
It's true that it would be logical for a society with a gender divide to also have gender-specific names, but it's not like it's a given, that it has to be that way. Perhaps they even have some reason for names being gender-neutral despite the society being segregated.
The_Gnat wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 11:19 pm
^_^ haha true, though I would say it is not racist rather instead specieist.
Honestly... in a typical fantasy (or even sci-fi) setting, race and species become basically the same thing. Even if there's a distinction, I don't think it's a meaningful one.
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ghype
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by ghype » January 21st, 2019, 2:12 pm

I find a more important thing to talk about is not wether saurians should have male/female genders and gender specific names, but the fact that Nagas do actually have 2 genders as far as I remember (Naga+Nagini), but both genders use a male base sprite.

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 22nd, 2019, 1:36 pm

Uh, don't you think it's possible that nagas simply don't have any gender dimorphism? Or at least, none noticeable enough to show up in a small sprite. So really, it's not a male base sprite, it's a unisex base sprite.
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by The_Gnat » January 22nd, 2019, 10:29 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:36 pm
Uh, don't you think it's possible that nagas simply don't have any gender dimorphism? Or at least, none noticeable enough to show up in a small sprite. So really, it's not a male base sprite, it's a unisex base sprite.
:D That is another really good idea. Similar looking gender species would be an interesting addition.

However, it does seem like your approach to the writers forum is 'what is the best idea that can be possible without changing anything at all' :lol:

Some may argue that good ideas with no minimal effort are better but the way really good ideas are created is through change. I'm not saying it really matters but...

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by name » January 23rd, 2019, 5:39 am

The_Gnat wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 10:29 pm
That is another really good idea. Similar looking gender species would be an interesting addition.
Not similar looking. The same looking.

Quite a lot of real world species do not express dimorphism greater than what is already depicted by the Saurian sprites and portraits. The same goes for the Naga (that is to say, no outwardly visible dimorphism.)

Trying to impose human concepts of gender or sex traits on vastly different species is only making the story universe less interesting and these creatures less unique. Wesnoth does not become better because you give a snake boobs. Or a lizard sex-specific naming conventions.

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 24th, 2019, 1:55 pm

It's not just about minimal effort, though I guess that is a consideration. I just think your suggestions would make it less interesting.

There's no reason to give the nagas gender dimorphism, and it's more interesting without it, so why change it? (In particular, if I'm not mistaken, a lack of gender dimorphism is common in snakes?)

While in a gender-segregated society like the saurians the most obvious choice is to have gender-specific names, the contrast of not having them makes for a more interesting society. Why don't they have gender-segregated names? Maybe their language has no gender markings, and they just name people after parts of their native swamps. If it was humans, you'd then expect flower names to be more feminine... but there's no reason saurians have to think the same as humans, and it's more interesting if they don't.

In other words... this:
name wrote:
January 23rd, 2019, 5:39 am
Trying to impose human concepts of gender or sex traits on vastly different species is only making the story universe less interesting and these creatures less unique. Wesnoth does not become better because you give a snake boobs. Or a lizard sex-specific naming conventions.
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Edwylm » January 24th, 2019, 11:21 pm

In irl there are many species of lizards/reptiles that use colors to distinct genders. most have males being more colorful than females, or one gender have a display feature. But on how they go about this is difficult because sometimes they get the display features during curtain times "like defense or mating season". Unlike alligators and their relatives which a person can't tell the difference between genders since they look very similar. Size in reptiles is not a good indicator as reptiles continue growing...

It be interesting seeing different colors/patterns when it comes to male/female but is it necessary? I can live both ways as I can see both views on not having and having it.

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by The_Gnat » January 25th, 2019, 12:47 am

I think I agree with Celtic and name in this situation, overall it is a good opportunity to extend the bounds of the current conventions wesnoth usually tends towards. However, like Edwylm said I could see it logically working either way.

Also another good question is: since we think it may be worth having no dimorphism for naga is this something that would be worth including any mention in the race-description in game? (A similar question applies for the Saurians names?)

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 26th, 2019, 3:01 am

For the saurian names... maybe. For lack of gender dimorphism in the nagas though, I don't think it's necessary.
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Mik3art » March 26th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Image

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ghype
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Re: Saurian genders

Post by ghype » March 26th, 2019, 6:06 pm

well if we come to the point to have portraits for male/female saurians, then maybe we should have also some small difference between the genders in the sprites

i doubt though we will get ever there

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Spixi » May 5th, 2019, 4:34 pm

What about making the Saurians a parthenogenetic species? There are many examples of female-only lizards in real life. We often think, that genders are a binary thing. But we have learned that sexuality is more complex than that. We learned, that species with zero, one or two genders exist, that some species can switch genders or have multiple genders at the same time. Some bacteria and archae can even exchange genetic material with non-sexual mechanisms.

I would appreciate to make Saurians a female-only species to show awareness for the fact, that concept of binary genders is not required for higher-developed societies.

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by ghype » May 28th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:36 pm
Uh, don't you think it's possible that nagas simply don't have any gender dimorphism? Or at least, none noticeable enough to show up in a small sprite. So really, it's not a male base sprite, it's a unisex base sprite.
I agree it is possible. Saurians do not have gender dimorphism, but Merfolk have - and aren't Nagas physically and by their nature resembling more the Merfolk than the Saurians?

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Re: Saurian genders

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 29th, 2019, 2:27 am

Um, sorry, what the heck? I can't see any reason why you'd believe that nagas resemble merfolk more than saurians. In fact, I don't think they have much in common with merfolk at all? I mean, yes, they're aquatic like the merfolk, but that's the only common point I can think of.
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