Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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MathBrush
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush » March 26th, 2018, 4:37 am

Wyverns are just amazing looking. Are their sprites too big though?

I could see three ways that they could be added: they could be an evolution of a current unit, or an infant wyvernling could be a level 1 unit that gains a rider on leveling to level 2. Or they could be a really expensive level 1 unit, like the gryphon rider.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 26th, 2018, 9:51 pm

Whether they're too big I think in part depends on if they're part of the regular recruits or not. Being able to recruit units that overflow the hex wouldn't look that good.

In any case though, it sounds the following possible units to add have been mentioned:
  • Roc - (sprite) - This could either be its own unit(recruitable or not), or a level 2 of the Falcon line. There's also currently the question of which add-on this came from, since Vyncyn didn't mention.
  • Wyvern Rider - (sprite; first two units in row 4) - It also looks like there's already two units available for it, which would fit a level 1 and level 2.
  • Jinn - (sprite; third unit in row 4)
  • Magus/Magi - (sprite; top right unit)
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Xalzar » March 26th, 2018, 10:17 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 26th, 2018, 9:51 pm
In any case though, it sounds the following possible units to add have been mentioned...
Shouldn't we talk about this in the balance thread? :hmm:

As for those additions, I'm in favour to insert them all in the core units list (granted they'll have to be animated sometimes in the future). But ofc the multiplayer faction is another story; there we should see what the faction lacks and add accordingly, possibly removing the Falcons in the process and moving them to core units as monsters IMO.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 26th, 2018, 10:55 pm

Xalzar wrote:
March 26th, 2018, 10:17 pm
Pentarctagon wrote:
March 26th, 2018, 9:51 pm
In any case though, it sounds the following possible units to add have been mentioned...
Shouldn't we talk about this in the balance thread? :hmm:

As for those additions, I'm in favour to insert them all in the core units list (granted they'll have to be animated sometimes in the future). But ofc the multiplayer faction is another story; there we should see what the faction lacks and add accordingly, possibly removing the Falcons in the process and moving them to core units as monsters IMO.
Yeah, I wasn't sure about posting to the balancing thread for that reason actually - if they're just being added to core, then they wouldn't affect balance at all.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 27th, 2018, 12:05 am

Shiki wrote:
March 26th, 2018, 1:50 am
Why adding the roc if there are already Gryphons?
Well, the roc has more of a Middle-Eastern flavour, so it fits better with the dunefolk faction. It's true there are some obvious similarities between gryphons and rocs, but that's not necessarily a reason to dismiss the roc; we should consider how they can be made different. I think someone mentioned a possibility of giving them some sort of "dive" ability that increases their combat capability over water (I can't recall the exact proposal unfortunately). Another possibility is giving them the charge special, like the falcon (especially if they're going to be an advancement of the falcon).
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zepko » March 27th, 2018, 8:18 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 26th, 2018, 9:51 pm
Whether they're too big I think in part depends on if they're part of the regular recruits or not. Being able to recruit units that overflow the hex wouldn't look that good.

In any case though, it sounds the following possible units to add have been mentioned:
  • Roc - (sprite) - This could either be its own unit(recruitable or not), or a level 2 of the Falcon line. There's also currently the question of which add-on this came from, since Vyncyn didn't mention.
  • Wyvern Rider - (sprite; first two units in row 4) - It also looks like there's already two units available for it, which would fit a level 1 and level 2.
  • Jinn - (sprite; third unit in row 4)
  • Magus/Magi - (sprite; top right unit)
If we are talking about possible units that could be added outside of the multiplayer faction, let me mention a few options that, in my opinion, fit the theme of the faction (faction in a wider sense, not strictly multiplayer) much better than the Magus or the Jinn (which currently have no place nor explanation in the proposed description).

In the Oath of Allegiance unit list (here) there are 3-4 different wyvern riders, as well as a wyvern without the rider. So enough to make a unit line of at least 3 levels.

And personally I also like the alternative Dune Soldier advancement (the "Masun"/"Maeqil" line), which maintains the marksman ability with an appearance more similar to the level 1 unit, the "Saray" (who could as well be a level 4 Maeqil) and the "Hurasch".

I'm not saying that we should add all of them at once, just think about it ;)

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by skeptical_troll » March 27th, 2018, 9:12 am

Perhaps we could start a thread in the 'faction development' section?

Roc: a possibility is doing a cheap recoloring/tweaking of the gryphon as an advancement of the falcon, explaining in the description that rocs are closely related to the northern gryphons, then using the uber-mega sprite for the level 3 (it's probably too big even for that).

Wyvern: if people are worried about it not being from the middle-east tradition (I actually don't think it is a problem), it could be renamed to 'sand snake' or 'desert dragon' or whatever. If it doesn't go into MP, it might have some unusual ability. In some UMC I've seen the 'terror' ability (adjacent enemies fight worse), it might suite this beast.

Another idea: if the dunefolk are good at taming animals, they could have war dogs, although this is also more inspired by the classical era rather than the mid-east. There are already sprites for hounds in the Era of Chaos, IIRC.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 28th, 2018, 4:14 am

skeptical_troll wrote:
March 27th, 2018, 9:12 am
Roc: a possibility is doing a cheap recoloring/tweaking of the gryphon as an advancement of the falcon, explaining in the description that rocs are closely related to the northern gryphons, then using the uber-mega sprite for the level 3 (it's probably too big even for that).
I don't think that would work very well. Unless Wesnoth has gone against the standard concept of a gryphon, they are quadrupeds. The roc, on the other hand, is a bird and thus bipedal.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 29th, 2018, 12:16 am

For now, I think it would be best to keep consideration of new units strictly to being added to core, not to the multiplayer faction. Which isn't to say that they couldn't later get added to the MP faction as well, but balance is a tricky subject which is probably best approached separately.

As for the units, the Roc I would definitely like to get in, perhaps as a standalone level 3 unit given its size. The wyvern rider I also definitely want to get in, since they and the Roc are mentioned in the description, regardless of however many advancements it ends up having. The Jinn I'd like to add as well, since it seems like a fitting unit to have available, even if it didn't make it into the description. The Magi and war dogs I'm ambivalent towards.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 29th, 2018, 12:31 am

If we were adding a magi I'd prefer it to be a typical 3-unit line, but we only have one sprite so that's a bit troublesome...
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 30th, 2018, 7:07 am

For now at least then, I propose the following units:
  • Roc - Level 3
    Sprite - same as linked to here
    Todo - figure out where the sprite came from and if the author is okay with it being mainlined, and placed under the CC BY-SA.
  • Wyvern Rider - Level 1
    Sprite - Second image on the 4th row
    Todo - confirm that Kwandulin and Sleepwalker are okay with it being mainlined, and placed under the CC BY-SA.
  • Wyvern Rider - Level 2
    Sprite - First image on the 4th row
    Todo - confirm that Kwandulin and Sleepwalker are okay with it being mainlined, and placed under the CC BY-SA.
  • Jinn - Level 2
    Sprite - Third image on the 4th row
    Todo - confirm that Kwandulin and Sleepwalker are okay with it being mainlined, and placed under the CC BY-SA.
Unit stats are an open question, and can be more or less whatever people think is appropriate since they aren't part of the MP faction.

There are also alternative sprite from EoMa that could potentially be used for the Roc and-or Wyverns as mentioned here, along with more Wyvern sprites mentioned here that are part of Oath of Allegiance. I have not looked at these other sprites myself yet, however.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Flameslash » March 30th, 2018, 11:29 am

Just wanted to chime in to say that i think there’s a lot of narrative potential for the Dunefolk that’s starting to emerge.

I like the two subcultures that have been hinted at, with the bustling trade cities juxtaposed with the nomadic desert wanderers. I think there’s stories to be told within that, about how the two groups view each other, and I’m glad to see a little more cultural diveristy within factions in Wesnoth.

I also like the idea that they’re skeptical of magic, as it distinguishes them from the Wesnothian humans, who are pretty big magic users. I think you could have a good story about contact with Wesnothians causing attitudes toward magic to be questioned by the Dunefolk - maybe linking to that cultural divide between the cities and nomads. If it happens later in the timeline, it could even cause the Wesnothians to question whether they should adopt that skepticism - certainly they’ve have bad experiences with it.

I think leaving the origins vague for now is a smart move. For one, there doesn’t seem to be any agreement on the subject anyway. But also, it gives someone making a campaign about their origins some freedom. Personally, I’d like to see their skepticism towards magic somehow involved in their backstory here, to bring their faction together more cohesively.

As for the geography separating them from the Wesnothians - how about we situate the Dunefolk on the eastern coast, seeing as Wesnoth’s port cities are on the western coast? Then, we can have the southwest coast be tall, inhospitable ridges and clifffaces, with a lack of natural harbours, thus explaining why the Dunefolk don’t have ports there, and why Wesnothian explorers haven’t pushed trust far down?

In terms of land borders, we could again include the Dunefolk’s attitude towards magic. The land north of their borders could be cursed - maybe all who pass through at night become undead? Maybe the sands shift, and all who pass through become lost and starve? A more mundane explanation would be to situate some hostile dwarves or elves in the way. I can see the Dunefolk encroaching on dwarvern mountains to mine, in order to fuel their prosperous economy.

Finally, I think we should try to integrate drakes into the Dunefolk’s stories as a natural enemy, or perhaps even as an ally. They’re a really underdeveloped faction, as are the Dunefolk, so this is an opportunity for us to kill two birds with one stone.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zepko » March 30th, 2018, 12:46 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 7:07 am
along with more Wyvern sprites mentioned here that are part of Oath of Allegiance
The wyverns from OoA are basically the same already mentioned in the previous post, just there are more of them.

I would like to see this unit line added to the game (if the authors agree, of course), that can form a 3 or even 4 units line.
wyvern_linebreaker.png
wyvern_linebreaker.png (7.33 KiB) Viewed 1808 times
wyvern_breaker.png
wyvern_breaker.png (8.22 KiB) Viewed 1808 times
wyvern_rider.png
wyvern_rider.png (8.36 KiB) Viewed 1808 times
wyvern_siegebreaker.png
wyvern_siegebreaker.png (9.54 KiB) Viewed 1808 times

And there is also the wyvern without the rider
wyvern.png
wyvern.png (6.16 KiB) Viewed 1808 times

I see no reason to add the Jinn, not because the image is bad (I like it, to be honest), but because it does not fit the current characterization of the Dunefolk, while I agree on the Roc.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zepko » March 30th, 2018, 12:51 pm

And, as I mentioned, I also like these guys, all from OoA
guardsman.png
guardsman.png (2.96 KiB) Viewed 1806 times
shieldguard.png
shieldguard.png (3.84 KiB) Viewed 1806 times
palaceguard.png
palaceguard.png (3.7 KiB) Viewed 1806 times
as a possible Dune Soldier alternative advancement, and this guy as a level 4 Dune Spearmaster
greatlance.png
greatlance.png (4.28 KiB) Viewed 1806 times

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 30th, 2018, 11:41 pm

Flameslash wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 11:29 am
As for the geography separating them from the Wesnothians - how about we situate the Dunefolk on the eastern coast, seeing as Wesnoth’s port cities are on the western coast? Then, we can have the southwest coast be tall, inhospitable ridges and clifffaces, with a lack of natural harbours, thus explaining why the Dunefolk don’t have ports there, and why Wesnothian explorers haven’t pushed trust far down?
The current description already gives the Dunefolk a pretty solid location, I believe.
Flameslash wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 11:29 am
In terms of land borders, we could again include the Dunefolk’s attitude towards magic. The land north of their borders could be cursed - maybe all who pass through at night become undead? Maybe the sands shift, and all who pass through become lost and starve? A more mundane explanation would be to situate some hostile dwarves or elves in the way. I can see the Dunefolk encroaching on dwarvern mountains to mine, in order to fuel their prosperous economy.
That could be an interesting mechanic or story in a campaign, for sure.
Flameslash wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 11:29 am
Finally, I think we should try to integrate drakes into the Dunefolk’s stories as a natural enemy, or perhaps even as an ally. They’re a really underdeveloped faction, as are the Dunefolk, so this is an opportunity for us to kill two birds with one stone.
This should hopefully be improved upon in the next development series. So far for the Dunefolk though, generally it seems like the Drakes would be considered an enemy, and at least some of the Naga tribes would be allies.

@zepko:
Thanks! Yeah, those do look good, and there's even a riderless wyvern(could call it a Wild Wyvern maybe?). For now though, I'd prefer to keep this to just new units that could be added to core, rather than changing the sprites for existing units. The Jinn though I think would be useful as a good utility sort of unit to have available for people who would want to use it, if nothing else.
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