Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 7th, 2018, 7:11 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
First of all, human civilization at the time of the Lich Lords was not a global civilization by any stretch - they surely didn't even occupy the whole of the Old Continent. There are almost certainly large areas of the old continent that the Wesfolk simple knew nothing about, because for one reason or another they had never sent expeditions in that direction.
Humans quickly expand over any unclaimed land they can reach and in any direction. The only areas that would remain unknown/inaccessible to them on their home landmass would be those places already occupied by a group of similar strength and territoriality.

Furthermore, people who have sea travel, explore much faster and more aggressively along the coast than they do over open ocean for many apparent reasons. A seafaring civilization as advanced as the islefolk and their parent civilization before the time of the lich lords, before colonizing the green isle and later the great continent across who knows how much open ocean in both cases, would easily have been able to circumnavigate their home landmass and set up colonies or city states wherever viable.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
And this idea that the Great Continent is some "virgin land" is simply ludicrous. Even before the Wesfolk arrived, it had elves, dwarves, and saurians at the very least.
Elves, dwarves and trolls occupied their niche ecosystems leaving great swathes of the land largely or entirely uninhabited. They traded this land that had so little utility to them, to the human settlers for basically nothing. Elves had poor martial readiness before contact with the newly arrived orcs. Saurians mostly inhabited swamps and are depicted as being fairly sporadic and weak, like the trolls. There were huge swathes of land for humans and orcs to take control over. If the land had not been so empty and completely devoid of direct competitors it would not have worked out this way and neither would the later waves of outward expansion in wesnoth history.

After the tremendous feat of reaching the great continent, it would not take long for any new arrivals to spread out over every unoccupied land there. They would not take the forests or the underground or the swamps, since these places are not so worthwhile and are well enough defended. But they would take everything else that sustains life. Including would-be wesnoth's steppe, the northlands and the rest. Even if there were any land too harsh to penetrate (as you speculated the desert would somehow be for the dunefolk), circumventing it by hugging the coast and fishing for seafood whilst using boats to quicken travel, would open up the continent to even the most primitive people.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
As for why the Wesfolk didn't think of that... well, if I recall correctly, aren't the orcs also from the Old Continent? Perhaps they occupied a large swathe of the northwest, blocking a western passage for the Wesfolk; the Dunefolk on the other hand were further south and had access to the western shore.
It is presumable the orcish homeland is part of the old continent or close by. The orcs will also rapidly expand into any land that is reachable and not heavily defended.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
Perhaps the Dunefolk are these humans that you insist must be present.
Humans do not need to be present, because the way to the great continent is so difficult from their place of origin.

The dunefolk being preexisting humans would mean they would already occupy wesnoth and the like places long before haldric. Especially since wesnoth is accessible by coast and extremely fertile by their standards.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
Just how many dragons do you think there would be? If there were one or two or three, then sure maybe you have a point. If there's a hundred... perhaps not so much. And quite frankly I think even a hundred would be a low estimate
When have you ever seen more than one or maybe two dragons in one place? Or seen any evidence of reproducing and maturing to their great size at even a moderate rate? Because without both massing in the hundreds and being able to competitively replace their numbers, they will be worn away through attrition by the organized, populous and fast reproducing races over some period of time or another. They are rare creatures that seemingly avoid their own kind, each fall to half a dozen average warriors working in concert, are never seen replacing themselves and are extirpated by the arrival of civilization.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 7th, 2018, 7:32 am

Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:11 am
Humans quickly expand over any unclaimed land they can reach and in any direction. The only areas that would remain unknown/inaccessible to them on their home landmass would be those places already occupied by a group of similar strength and territoriality.
Which is a reason to make the Dunefolk natives to the Great Continent and in some way connected to the sand/desert/dunes rather than another group of humans that arrived from elsewhere - it gives them a reason to not expand beyond the desert.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zookeeper » March 7th, 2018, 9:17 am

Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 1:25 am
A brutal arctic style land/ice bridge that other times is an open strait is effectively what beringia was/is in the real world. It has proven to be a very weak obstacle to humans, who have crossed it several times, over many millennia under very different climactic circumstances each time.

This makes the empty land that would become wesnoth already fully peopled by the time haldric's ships arrive. It would reshape canon down to its footings.
I'd say apples and oranges; migrations across Beringia apparently occurred tens of thousands of years ago, whereas we have no knowledge of the timeline of human prehistory on the Old Continent. Maybe humans had only existed on the Old Continent for some thousands of years prior to TRoW, and their great civilizations (Wesfolk, Dunefolk) were still young. Not to mention the conditions (like, you know, the monsters and all that) would/could be so different as to explain why those civilizations weren't able to expand quite as systematically and efficiently.

As for obstacles such as dragons or whatever: for sure, dragons aren't an unstoppable force against a proper military, but they sure would have been for stone age hunter-gatherers. Or maybe a few got through every once in a while, but they simply died out. After all, in addition to harsh environmental conditions, there would have been some hostile sentients on the other side to greet them as well, unlike when the first real-world humans arrived to the Americas.

EDIT:
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:11 am
Humans quickly expand over any unclaimed land they can reach and in any direction. The only areas that would remain unknown/inaccessible to them on their home landmass would be those places already occupied by a group of similar strength and territoriality.
But that's the thing: on Earth, humans were able to expand pretty much unchallenged anywhere they went. In our case, the world is filled with sentient races that are quite inclined to attack you. There's no reason to assume that the far south is/was some kind of untouched land inhabited only by simple beasts that would give way to human settlers.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by skeptical_troll » March 7th, 2018, 10:08 am

I personally find much less boring and uninspiring another boat trip (as long as it's for different reason than tRoW) than making another 1d race/faction. Of course 'they're made of sand -> they live in a desert' could be easily understood by a 5-years-old kid, but that's kind of the problem (well, depending on the target you're aiming at). Making them some sort of sand-spirits just because they are inspired by some real-world civilization that in the west we associate to the desert doesn't give a lot of depth, to say the least (for similar reasons I'm not too eager of 'dunefolk' as the new name). Mongols, Persians, Arabs, Byzantines etc.. lived across all kinds of environment, not just deserts. And obviously their major settlements were in fertile areas. So it should be for the dunefolk: there could be small villages in oasis and deserts, sure, but the main cities should be in fertile valleys. It's not that hard to imagine reasons for them living close to a desert: presence of mineral resources, defensive advantage, strategical position to control trade routes etc.. Besides, if centuries have passed since tRoW, certainly orcs and humans had spread to other favorable regions in the continent, which may have forced the dunefolk to choose an unoccupied, defendable niche.

I also don't buy the objections to the land-bridge theory above (and I find it funny that we require such level of adherence to human history in a thread where people propose flying carpets/caravans, parting waters, in a world where humans could raise two more suns..). The Bering strait is quite narrow and has islands in it, so it's not even hard to cross by simple means of navigation. Crossing a land with the weather of Antarctica instead would prove impossible to any human, unless they develop the proper equipment, or exceptional warm conditions occur, or they accidentally find a sheltered route (underground/ice caves etc.). Any of this options (beside obviously the cave scenario :whistle: :mrgreen: ) would work to explain a late migration. As for the 'extremely large distances' required to explain isolation, I don't buy that either, it takes much less to keep humans apart. Just to make an example, New Zealand is separated from other lands by much less than an ocean, yet it wasn't colonized until historical times (~1300 AD), and dunefolk are likely less proficient in sailing than Polynesians.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush » March 7th, 2018, 3:37 pm

Reading the actual game text, it would only take a tiny amount of work in Rise of Wesnoth to change how long elves have known about humans. In fact, the text suggests they are already familiar with humans (somehow the elf lords know from just meeting one person that humans are short lived and bent on conquest).

So it would be easy to change that part. I think it would help get more consensus. This text shows that Burin was able to cross the other ocean (going east from new continent to old) alone! And that the elves didn’t care about anything south of the great forests, as they claimed all land south of the great river yet clearly didn’t live in the deserts.

Here are the parts everyone is fixated on:

Code: Select all

speaker = Burin the Lost
message= _ "Our lands are become full, and our mines go to the bottom of the world. We have won our war against those things that live in the dark. By what right do you claim all of the forests of the world, and all of the land south of the Great River, and force us onto only the hills and mountains of the north? There are hills and mountains as good as any here in the south!"
        [/message]
        
...

[message]
            speaker=Lady Dionli
            message= _ "What? What’s going on here? Dwarves? Humans? Ships? Glimir, tell me."
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Glimir
            message= _ "The stories are true. There must be dwarven colonists in the Brown Hills. We caught this band chopping wood near the bay. Then we saw lots of ships. Not like before, with that fellow from Southbay and his lone ship. It was always interesting when he stopped by."
        [/message]
        
        ...
             
[message]
            speaker=Burin the Lost
            message= _ "In the name of... This is the continent of my home. But I set out east. I must have traveled clear around the world."
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Burin the Lost
            message= _ "My people are too far south. I don’t know what’s going on here. I’ll stick with you until the end. You’ve been a good friend. Just no more sea voyages."
        [/message]

...
        
[message]
                    speaker=Lord Logalmier
                    message= _ "Dionli, why have you brought these humans before us?"
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker=Lady Dionli
                    message= _ "They are of the same people as the Prince of Southbay. They come as refugees. I can see a use for them."
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker=Lord Aryad
                    # wmllint: local spelling shortliveds
                    message= _ "What use would that be? What need could we have for the shortliveds here?"
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker=Lady Dionli
                    message= _ "The dwarves have come to the Brown Hills. While they live long, even they grow like weeds when in an empty field. There is trouble brewing."
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker=Lady Dionli
                    message= _ "It is better to be the greater of three than the lesser of two. The Prince of Southbay was good, he was a credit to his people. Maybe these ones are made of the same stuff."
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker="Lord El'Isomithir"
                    message= _ "But why then do they come as refugees? Speak, human."
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker=Prince Haldric
                    message= _ "Our people come in peace. There was a war in our homeland. We are refugees. We come seeking a new home, since our island to the west and north is now forfeit."
                [/message]
                [message]
                    speaker="Lord El'Isomithir"
                    message= _ "So you come to steal our land? We know your kind, humans of the west-north."
                [/message]        
        
Last edited by MathBrush on March 7th, 2018, 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 7th, 2018, 5:12 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:32 am
Which is a reason to make the Dunefolk natives to the Great Continent and in some way connected to the sand/desert/dunes rather than another group of humans that arrived from elsewhere - it gives them a reason to not expand beyond the desert.
Yeah it explains their remaining localized to a particular region, while explaining their presence on the continent, plus explaining the half dozen or more other issues between dunefolk and mainline/canon mentioned some pages ago. It could very well transform the dunefolk from an awkward insert into a fitting part of the game world.

zookeeper wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:17 am
I'd say apples and oranges; migrations across Beringia apparently occurred tens of thousands of years ago, whereas we have no knowledge of the timeline of human prehistory on the Old Continent. Maybe humans had only existed on the Old Continent for some thousands of years prior to TRoW, and their great civilizations (Wesfolk, Dunefolk) were still young.
The technology and social structure that these human cultures possess is highly advanced by the standards of real life human history. They would have to be advancing somewhere between 10 times to 100 times the rate we did, and do so using a smaller population with more limited access to key natural resources, in order to come up with all this innovation in no time at all.

Making humanity only a few thousand years old also puts limits on what kind of canon backstories and campaigns can be told from now on (you cannot have an ancient human civilization or lich lord older than humanity itself). This hyper rapid appearance of a species also pushes evolution past its breaking point, so human existence would have to be explained by some much faster working phenomenon like creationism or their arrival from someplace beyond irdya.
zookeeper wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:17 am
Not to mention the conditions (like, you know, the monsters and all that) would/could be so different as to explain why those civilizations weren't able to expand quite as systematically and efficiently.
That explanation only becomes the same kind of problem. Any race that could and would block technologically advanced humans with advanced seafaring from expanding across the access path to the great continent completely, would themselves expand into and take over the vast unoccupied swathes of that land.
zookeeper wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:17 am
As for obstacles such as dragons or whatever: for sure, dragons aren't an unstoppable force against a proper military, but they sure would have been for stone age hunter-gatherers. Or maybe a few got through every once in a while, but they simply died out.
Dragons blocking the movement of stone age peoples would be like humans blocking the movement of mice and rats in any way. We certainly have tried, and we certainly have failed, due to their much higher reproduction, much lower food requirements and ability to spread out and hide well beyond our abilities to sense and pursue them.

And this assumes that stone age technology was considered the cutting edge extremely recently (a big assumption). And this also assumes stone age weaponry would be far less effective in warfare, even though it is used effectively by some races like trolls and possibly goblins (the art for their weaponry is contradictory). Otherwise dragons would fall to direct conflict as well as being bypassed.
zookeeper wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:17 am
But that's the thing: on Earth, humans were able to expand pretty much unchallenged anywhere they went. In our case, the world is filled with sentient races that are quite inclined to attack you. There's no reason to assume that the far south is/was some kind of untouched land inhabited only by simple beasts that would give way to human settlers.
They would and could only block humans from entering certain regions they were specialized for (forest, mountains) or else they would take over everything a human or orc would take. If highly specialized, they can be bypassed either through agreement not to linger in their territory and instead colonize an environment the specialists find poorly suited for their own habitation (as haldric did) or could be bypassed via the coasts. Or simply fought through, as is so often the case in canon campaigns. Practically every other mainline campaign scenario is about either bypassing an enemy that blocks your path or defeating them.

skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 10:08 am
I personally find much less boring and uninspiring another boat trip (as long as it's for different reason than tRoW) than making another 1d race/faction.
Except a second, desert dwelling culture of an existing native race, like saurians, would not fit your definition of a 1d race. It would be the opposite of that.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 10:08 am
I find it funny that we require such level of adherence to human history in a thread where people propose flying carpets/caravans, parting waters, in a world where humans could raise two more suns..
I too find it funny that such strict adherence to human history is required for this one faction in a fantasy setting, such that it must be made up of ordinary humans with no magic practice, that none the less show up out of nowhere from the other side of the world on cue but then cease expanding or roaming beyond a small desert.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 10:08 am
Crossing a land with the weather of Antarctica instead would prove impossible to any human, unless they develop the proper equipment, or exceptional warm conditions occur, or they accidentally find a sheltered route (underground/ice caves etc.). Any of this options (beside obviously the cave scenario :whistle: :mrgreen: ) would work to explain a late migration.
That might explain the recent arrival of a polar survival faction, but a faction entirely focused on desert living, that cannot stand snow or ice, it would work against as an origin story.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 10:08 am
As for the 'extremely large distances' required to explain isolation, I don't buy that either, it takes much less to keep humans apart. Just to make an example, New Zealand is separated from other lands by much less than an ocean, yet it wasn't colonized until historical times (~1300 AD), and dunefolk are likely less proficient in sailing than Polynesians.
Islefolk, their parent civilization on the old continent and in some ways even wesfolk, have seafaring technology well beyond polynesians. So even if the dunefolk are a backwards people there are other human civilization(s) that are more than capable.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 7th, 2018, 5:42 pm

MathBrush wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 3:37 pm
Cold Steel has argued vehemently against everything except for crossing with jinn,
Actually, if you recall, I supported your idea of making them a native race composed of the desert sands. And put forward the idea of making them another culture of an existing race native to the great continent, like saurians.

In fact, I am not fond of the idea of humans crossed with jinni for a number of reasons. Instead I put forward the idea of an alliance between humans and jinni and that the former used magic carpets to fly to the great continent, guided by the latter. And before that proposal, I put forward the idea the dunefolk were themselves jinni that are native to the desert(s) of the great continent.

I have and am more than happy to entertain more than one possibility, but it has to actually fit the canon and setting of the game.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush » March 7th, 2018, 6:05 pm

I realized I was wrong, and removed my comment.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by skeptical_troll » March 7th, 2018, 6:54 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:12 pm
Except a second, desert dwelling culture of an existing native race, like saurians, would not fit your definition of a 1d race. It would be the opposite of that.
Agreed, and I already replied on that.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I too find it funny that such strict adherence to human history is required for this one faction in a fantasy setting, such that it must be made up of ordinary humans with no magic practice, that none the less show up out of nowhere from the other side of the world on cue but then cease expanding or roaming beyond a small desert.
It's not 'required', it's just a stylistic choice. At most, it's about adherence to the faction's initial concept (this overhaul is quickly turning into 'let's remove the Khalifate and make up a new faction from scratch based on forum conversations'). Also, you're making a lot of assumptions about the history of the dunefolk, even if it's not yet written and there aren't mainline campaigns about it. Nobody says they ceased expanding: there could be a conflict with Wesnoth, they may expand somewhere else in the continent, possibly short after (or even before) they reached the sandy wastes, and this probably happens late in Wesnoth history.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:12 pm
That might explain the recent arrival of a polar survival faction, but a faction entirely focused on desert living, that cannot stand snow or ice, it would work against as an origin story.
I heard this 'not fitting' argument also for the cave scenario, and in this case I think the same: it's your assumption that everything about the dunefolk should revolve around the desert, but I find that quite limiting. Where is it written that they cannot stand snow or ice? Being humans, they can adapt to different conditions, be it underground or cold or mountains or whatever. Of course, if they can only move across deserts, than you have by definition a new race that is native to the desert, it's a tautology.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:12 pm
Islefolk, their parent civilization on the old continent and in some ways even wesfolk, have seafaring technology well beyond polynesians. So even if the dunefolk are a backwards people there are other human civilization(s) that are more than capable.
So? They indeed found a route to the Great Continent which led them to Wesnoth. Dunefolk will find a different route much later, from another part of the Old Continent (or from a new continent). What's the problem with that? Even if the Wesfolk were more proficient than them in sailing, their navigation first led them to the green island, then to Wesnoth instead of going through the south, and it makes sense that they start a transoceanic exploration from their location, not from somebody else's territory. Like vikings and Columbus, getting to America through different routes in different centuries, for example.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Caladbolg » March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 1:25 am
Or how can we modify dunefolk to fit canon.
I'm not sure where the others stand on this, but I'm not for making them non-humans. Desert saurians might be nice, maybe even better than desert humans, but that improvement would be marginal in my opinion. If we had desert saurians, I'd say we should stick with them. But we have desert humans. I'm not going to be convinced that we should change them until I see sprites, unit stats, etc. that are supposed to replace the existing ones and judge them to be better.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 1:25 am
Caladbolg wrote:
March 6th, 2018, 9:06 pm
In other words, the fact that the barrier is not impassible is not sufficient to claim that no exchange could've happened before any given point.
Exactly the problem. The great continent would already be fully occupied with human civilizations if not other races like orcs that migrated there tens or hundreds of thousands of years before haldric arrived.
That does not follow, and that was my point. By your logic, no action can ever occur, because if it can, it would've occured before. Humans can't have gone there because if they could, they would've before. That makes no sense. Circumstances change.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 1:25 am
Some level 5 units are not a strong barrier in a military strategy game where most engagements are between armies.
I beg to differ. Case in point- in any scenario where there's a dragon imagine if there were at least 10 of them.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 1:25 am
The dragons would get pinned down and slaughtered, especially by races like orcs that are so aggressive and reproduce so quickly. It might not all happen in one battle or one campaign, but over months, years, decades, centuries or millennia it certainly would.
How is that an argument against dragons as a barrier? For example, Dunefolk cannot cross for centuries because of dragons and then they defeat them and pass. Perfectly in line with your objection.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:11 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 5:13 am
Just how many dragons do you think there would be? If there were one or two or three, then sure maybe you have a point. If there's a hundred... perhaps not so much. And quite frankly I think even a hundred would be a low estimate
When have you ever seen more than one or maybe two dragons in one place? Or seen any evidence of reproducing and maturing to their great size at even a moderate rate? Because without both massing in the hundreds and being able to competitively replace their numbers, they will be worn away through attrition by the organized, populous and fast reproducing races over some period of time or another. They are rare creatures that seemingly avoid their own kind, each fall to half a dozen average warriors working in concert, are never seen replacing themselves and are extirpated by the arrival of civilization.
I'm not sure if those two dragons that appear in the mainline in the time when dragons are supposedly practically extinct in the area around Wesnoth are a sufficient sample size for your conclusions. There's nothing preventing dragons from being numerous in the past and in another part of the world.
Not to mention that no dragon falls to half a dozen average warriors. Small units like humans, orcs, drakes, etc. represent whole battalions, or at least that's how I interpret it. Otherwise, Konrad really does overthrow a regime with his ~50 units (depending on how well you play) and armies usually consist of less than 20 people on each side of the conflict.

Most of your other objections boil down to you claiming that if something were possible, it'd already be done. If there were no barriers everyone would've crossed long ago, etc. But there's a myriad of reasons why someone might not do something he can do. Being able to do something does not necessitate doing that thing.
Honestly, if you had a land bridge full of dragons that fry 90% of anyone who comes near on one side and a fertile land on the other, why would you ever use a land bridge. You'd use it only once there's an even greater threat on the other side or when you've advanced so much that you can afford spending time and resources on satisfying your curiosities.

It's ok if the Dunefolk are native but then you need to explain how they're bound to the desert. Also, I remind that the only issue with the Dunefolk being human is that in TRoW it's implied that the Islefolk were the first humans to arrive to the new lands, but those lines can easily be interpreted in a different way, removing the problem.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 7th, 2018, 8:19 pm

skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 6:54 pm
It's not 'required', it's just a stylistic choice. At most, it's about adherence to the faction's initial concept (this overhaul is quickly turning into 'let's remove the Khalifate and make up a new faction from scratch based on forum conversations').
If you wanted to adhere to the original concept, you would be against all ideas besides khalifate being an offshoot of wesnoth that became separated by desertification. That was the original concept's origin story.

By changing that (along with the faction name and all unit names), you have "removed the khalifate and made up a new faction from scratch" already, going by this very puritanical and binary definition of what the faction is and is not, such that any change from the original concept constitutes throwing away the faction completely.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 6:54 pm
Nobody says they ceased expanding: there could be a conflict with Wesnoth, they may expand somewhere else in the continent, possibly short after (or even before) they reached the sandy wastes, and this probably happens late in Wesnoth history.
A late arrival date is not supported by anything less than a truly significant barrier to travel (which a land bridge is not) and does not give them any time to thoroughly adapt to a purely desert environment, if they had just made an arduous journey through a polar ice cap or a vast undersea cave complex, both more extreme environments of a radically different nature. Plus a polar ice cap would not prevent a much earlier arrival either, which would fully colonize the continent.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 6:54 pm
I heard this 'not fitting' argument also for the cave scenario, and in this case I think the same: it's your assumption that everything about the dunefolk should revolve around the desert, but I find that quite limiting. Where is it written that they cannot stand snow or ice? Being humans, they can adapt to different conditions, be it underground or cold or mountains or whatever.
Because they do revolve around the desert. Their defense and movement ability on sand far exceeds that of any non-reptilian race, yet their performance in forests is basically nonexistent and their performance on snow and ice is as terrible as any other's. Same goes for underground terrain. Everything about how the faction looks and plays emphasizes long term desert adaptation.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 6:54 pm
Even if the Wesfolk were more proficient than them in sailing, their navigation first led them to the green island, then to Wesnoth instead of going through the south, and it makes sense that they start a transoceanic exploration from their location, not from somebody else's territory.
Regardless of inland territories, traveling along coasts is tremendously easier and happens much earlier in history than transoceanic travel.

There is no reason to believe the discovery of the green isle far out in the stormy ocean was a first and only venture into seafaring by that civilization. It in fact defies all reason and history. They would travel south and north and/or any other direction that followed a coast line to reach all the easiest places before going fully transoceanic.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 7th, 2018, 9:00 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm
That does not follow, and that was my point. By your logic, no action can ever occur, because if it can, it would've occured before. Humans can't have gone there because if they could, they would've before. That makes no sense. Circumstances change.
That is, of course, a gross simplification of what has been said.

Geography is not subject to fast enough change. It is not subject to change that can absolutely switch on and off human migration into unoccupied land. A land bridge can become a narrow straight or freeze over and that is about it. If a landmass is there, it has been there since long before people existed in any modern sense. It is a constant.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm
I beg to differ. Case in point- in any scenario where there's a dragon imagine if there were at least 10 of them.
I have played those kinds of scenarios. The challenge is comparable to being against level 1 units mixed in with some level 2 units, altogether totaling ~60 in number. And a scenario plays out over days, not for the months, years, decades, centuries or millennia that both a land bridge and cleverly dangerous peoples have been around for.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm
How is that an argument against dragons as a barrier? For example, Dunefolk cannot cross for centuries because of dragons and then they defeat them and pass. Perfectly in line with your objection.
It does not explain the convenient timing of this victory so late in the world timeline.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm
Small units like humans, orcs, drakes, etc. represent whole battalions, or at least that's how I interpret it.
Well no wonder we cannot agree, in your head you are playing a totally different game from what the rest of us are seeing. :P
Caladbolg wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 7:34 pm
But there's a myriad of reasons why someone might not do something he can do. Being able to do something does not necessitate doing that thing.
That is true of an individual. But not all the countless groups of individuals over tens of thousands of years. If only one group had done something very possible in any part of that long time, it destroys canon. It is a statistical near impossibility that relatively almost none attempt the land bridge. And just one making it across is enough.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by skeptical_troll » March 7th, 2018, 9:03 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 8:19 pm
If you wanted to adhere to the original concept, you would be against all ideas besides khalifate being an offshoot of wesnoth that became separated by desertification. That was the original concept's origin story.

By changing that (along with the faction name and all unit names), you have "removed the khalifate and made up a new faction from scratch" already, going by this very puritanical and binary definition of what the faction is and is not, such that any change from the original concept constitutes throwing away the faction completely.
By the author's admission, that was just a rough draft. I'm not against changing anything: renaming, tweaking stats and lore, adding 1-2 units is one thing. Changing race, sprites, alignment and fundamental features of the faction such as the lack of magic is basically equivalent to make a new one. Which is a legitimate position but at that point the best thing to do would be to choose another faction among those which are already done, tested and used, instead of theoretically speculating about a brand new one.
I stick to my opinions about the limitation to desert environments and the plausibility of barriers other than an ocean (and even an ocean is fine though).
Cold Steel wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 8:19 pm
Regardless of inland territories, traveling along coasts is tremendously easier and happens much earlier in history than transoceanic travel.

There is no reason to believe the discovery of the green isle far out in the stormy ocean was a first and only venture into seafaring by that civilization. It in fact defies all reason and history. They would travel south and north and/or any other direction that followed a coast line to reach all the easiest places before going fully transoceanic.
Even if they navigated till the dunefolk region it doesn't mean that they would start an ocean crossing from there, nor a polar exploration. Or there were marine raiders like nagas preventing their ships to explore too south. Really, there's no limit to the possibilities. And in any case the base argument is simply not true, just consider the europeans in the exploration era:
1492: Columbus lands in America (transoceanic)
1497: De Gama circumnavigates Africa (along the coast)

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name » March 8th, 2018, 12:07 am

skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:03 pm
By the author's admission, that was just a rough draft. I'm not against changing anything: renaming, tweaking stats and lore, adding 1-2 units is one thing. Changing race, sprites, alignment and fundamental features of the faction such as the lack of magic is basically equivalent to make a new one. Which is a legitimate position but at that point the best thing to do would be to choose another faction among those which are already done, tested and used, instead of theoretically speculating about a brand new one.
If this were any other case I might agree with you.

But the kalifa/khalifate/dunefolk are something of a legal fiction. They are unfinished and abandoned by their creator, arguably contradict canon in a number of places and are not popular as a multiplayer faction in online multiplayer, existing in their own limbo era, yet simultaneously mainlined with political will to unmainline them uncertain and currently even a disallowed topic to raise (I think). So fixing one legal fiction with another by wesnothifing the dunefolk to fit into the canon and standards of the game, could be the best option at this point.
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 7th, 2018, 9:03 pm
And in any case the base argument is simply not true, just consider the europeans in the exploration era:
1492: Columbus lands in America (transoceanic)
1497: De Gama circumnavigates Africa (along the coast)
A fair point.

Although the eqyptians had already circumnavigated africa two thousand years earlier, so the situation was potentially already understood, with a much shorter trip to reach the same sites available by crossing overland through the future location of the suez, before reembarking for a second leg of sea travel.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon » March 8th, 2018, 1:21 am

Cold Steel wrote:
March 8th, 2018, 12:07 am
But the kalifa/khalifate/dunefolk are something of a legal fiction. They are unfinished and abandoned by their creator, arguably contradict canon in a number of places and are not popular as a multiplayer faction in online multiplayer, existing in their own limbo era, yet simultaneously mainlined with political will to unmainline them uncertain and currently even a disallowed topic to raise (I think). So fixing one legal fiction with another by wesnothifing the dunefolk to fit into the canon and standards of the game, could be the best option at this point.
The topic isn't disallowed, but the purpose of this thread is to come up with a description for the Dunefolk, not to debate if they belong in mainline Wesnoth at all. If anyone feels really strongly that they should be removed, then that's fine, but you should start your own thread. I will say though that I very much prefer moving forward with improving the Dunefolk, rather than just getting rid of them.

As far as "fundamental features" and such of the faction, the only thing that I really consider to be fundamental is that they keep their focus on being near east/middle eastern in design and inspiration. Aside from that, there's really not much I'd personally consider outside the scope of potentially changing. There are practical considerations as well, of course - proposing to replace the entire faction's sprites, for example, is unlikely to actually happen for multiple reasons - but then I also don't think the current sprites would need to change much/at all to accommodate them instead being a human-like race with a deep connection to the desert.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

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