Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Deciton_Reven
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Deciton_Reven »

I don't know if I understand why Wesnoth would want to keep the Dunefolk secret to the people. I guess maybe because the Dunefolk asked nicely and the Wesnoth monarchy never betrays people for petty reasons? I also don't know why the Dunefolk would want to stay unknown other than "because they're secretive", which I mean are they? Why would they want to be until they've had a bad experience with another people to make them that way? And then if they're secretive because they're afraid of attack from those people or otherwise being stolen from why would they stay in healthy contact? If they're that secretive it's a wonder Wesnoth discovered them, let alone in a way that allowed the secret to not spread but still be retained for future contact. It all seems rather contrived to try to weave them into the setting like they've been important/notable from the very start, because the motives don't seem to exist in universe.

Just make them "recently" involved with the world at large because of "a [event]" and mostly use the race description to describe them is how I'd do it. Mainly because while race descriptions are from wesnoth perspective, the time of these descriptions are vague enough that "recently" can be as far in the future or past (or present) as the author needs it to be as long as they make sure it lines up correctly with other instances in mainline continuity.

I mean I'm not even going to suggest I'm any kind of skilled author but vagueness is generally a good buffer to let things line up naturally on their own before you pin them in place with confidence I find.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

I agree, I'd prefer for the Dunefolk and Wesfolk to have no knowledge of each others' presence for most of Wesnoth's history. There should ideally be a campaign, probably set sometime after HttT, which covers the first contact between the two entities.

However, earlier contact between the Dunefolk and the southern elves might be less of a strain on credibility, as that elven faction doesn't really get along with Wesnoth as far as I know.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Eagle_11 »

It may be that the dunefolk have heard only rumour from their southern elf contacts, about other people living north of the desert, an information which themselves cannot verify so far. The dunefolk cannot trust elves because of reasons, the elves magical nature being one of them.
the Wesnothian royalty are probably in fear of the dunefolk, should they be knowing about their existence, as they are probably not able to determine the exact motivations of those southern men.
Unable to gauge how they would react should diplomatic contact be established with the dunefolk, would their answer be send an army to conquer or an messenger to negotiate, remains unclear to the regency of wesnoth so they choose to maintain the status, until either they have gained more information or the worst case scenario would occur(an fullsize expeditonary force of the dunefolk arrives to launch an military invasion).
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Xalzar »

For the royals of Wesnoth to keep the existence of the Dunefolk a secret is quite absurd.
And let's not talk how they could even manage that; it's not like they have the absolute control of the flow of information.
And the motivations? Fear? Orcs and Undead are quite more frightening. :augh:
What benefits gives all this secrecy? :hmm:

If someone manages to answer all these questions we can make an interesting backstory for the faction with this concept. ^_^
Else, I feel that the best option is to have the Dunefolk gradually migrate/expanding from the South and reach the outskirts of Wesnoth in later dates. After all, there are quite a few voids in the Wesnoth history, not yet covered by campaigns. :eng:
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name »

I was holding off on posting serious feedback to the currently proposed race description until after the string freeze so as not to fatally delay its inclusion in the next stable release. But at the rate it has progressed and the number/depth of problems it still has, this likely will not happen anyway.

So here it is:
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:The origins of the Dunefolk are a well-kept secret, as well as the exact location of their bustling cities, hidden amongst the dunes on deep southern territory.
...
Talks with these southern people have mostly remained in the unwritten pages of history, as if the very mention of their existence would strike fear in the hearts of the general populace, but it is rumored that some kings of Wesnoth retained the knowledge of their motives and ambitions through occasional diplomatic attempts,
This makes zero sense.

1. Bustling cities (that are both human and non-magical in nature) cannot be kept secret. They draw resources from an enormous surrounding area and generally need to be situated on a river or coastline to do so. They are huge and highly reachable by design, which is the antithesis of secret.

2. The dunefolk are far from fearsome and are in fact the most mundane faction. That a place like wesnoth time and again invaded by orc hordes and plagued with outbreaks of undead would be stunned into silence at the notion of a group of ordinary humans with no magic and a less organized military, living in a remote desert, is laughable. It is such a ludicrous overreaction on the part of wesnoth without any reason or explanation.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:But one thing is widely-known across the Great Continent - the Dunefolk are composed of cultured scholars, talented healers, and ferocious warriors who master both steel and fire to tear their enemies apart in combat.
Replace "Dunefolk" with "Wesnothian" and this statement is just as true. Remove only "scholars" and this works equally well for the drakes faction. Remove only "fire" and it works equally well for elves. And all factions/races will "tear their enemies apart in combat", this line of borderline hyperbole is not specific to anyone in particular.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:It is said that sand - not blood - courses through their champions' veins.
This is awkward to say the least. Sand does not flow readily, it is not a liquid. This is like saying "dirt flows through my veins".
Also, their champions have never suffered a single cut or a scuffed elbow in battle? Because the slightest bleeding would dispel this myth.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:Those who are wounded in battle have "lost their sand" in the defeat, and when they exact vengeance, they are repaying the sands for their vanquished pride.
I have little idea what this is supposed to mean.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:The Dunefolk's expertise in living in the desert is as masterful as the scientific techniques they have perfected over the years. In their hands, herbal medicine is an incredibly efficient way to keep fighters alive between the rounds of battle they must face over the course of their harsh, blood-forged lives.
All of these references to scholars and science says nothing about how this race/faction actually is or plays. There is nothing science-y about their units or more nomadic lifestyle. Their smithing is inferior to that of dwarves and drakes. Their armor is inferior to that of loyalists. Their hand-pumped greek flamethrower is at best on par with dwarven handcannons and the craft of the master mages (which also appears to be black powder based) and likely less sophisticated based on real world history.

They do have first rate healers, so just say that. Stick to what they actually have (or are planned to have).
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:The Dunefolk have not been involved in brutal wars with the people of Wesnoth,
Always think twice before using the word "not" when it comes to this faction/race description. Dunefolk are practically defined by their "nots" at this point, by what they lack rather than what they have or are. They have *not* fought wars with wesnoth... They have *not* magic... They have *not* any known history or origin... They have *not* close associations with other races (no other races in their unit line up at present)...

And yet we could have dozens or hundred of sentences describing everything they are not and still have no idea what it is they actually are.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:While seemingly bearing distaste against said elves, mages and the horrifying undead, the Dunefolk employ other, lesser-known races of creatures in their arsenal, while battling the hardships of the desert and the ferocious drakes, their nearest and most aggressive enemies, in unending, bloody strife.
Dunefolk society rarely encourages the use of magic amongst its people, shunning those who dedicate their lives to practicing it instead of merely studying it.
What is the implication of all of this, they hate magic users but not magical creatures?

How is magic defined (that is, what is and is not considered magic in this world)? What triggers their irrational magic-intolerance and what does not?
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:However, some would say their scientific techniques and the effective methods of training nearly untamable creatures are as close as possible to the magical arts.
This abusing of the term "science" is getting ridiculous. And what does taming animals have to do with magical arts at all in this context? Why are these three seemingly unrelated things (science, animal taming, magic) being compared in the same sentence here?
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:their ranks include beasts such as Wyverns, captained by their Dunefolk tamers, riderless Rukhs, and occasionally, the cryptic Jinn.
If this becomes true, that they have powerful and exotic mounts and allied races, that would be a step in the right direction for this faction. Finally something they *have* rather than lack. This requires follow through with changes to their unit line up, horses and a falcon does not cut it.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:the cryptic Jinn, mystical beings who do not seem to be allies, yet are not enemies either.
So they are *not* allies with the Jinn and they are *not* enemies either? There's that word again. :P

How about they are close allies of the Jinn. There is no reason for them not to be.
Kasdel's Proposal wrote:Wesnoth travellers who visited Dunefolk lands and lived to tell the tale speak of enormous, fearsome armies that would pose a significant risk to all those foolish enough to stand in their way.
More generic hyperbole. Wesnoth has quite a large army. This fact is a cornerstone and metric for many if not most mainline campaign plot lines. If from the perspective or wesnoth travelers, the dunefolk have an enormous army by comparison, it makes most of the things that ever happen in the game quite small and silly. It also opens up the question of why the preeminent power in the region is playing not a central role, but close to no role.

The enormous army thing is also not as fitting for a faction/race that focuses mostly on small hit and run engagements. The larger the force, the more challenging maneuvering becomes, both in real life and in wesnoth's game play.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Airatgaljamov »

2 Cold Steel

I'm thinking that every problem you are mentioning is a more general and fundamental problem when one tries to insert some new element into established system. And emphasized definition through lacks and nots is not the core problem. You can play around and convert any not into are. But if try to invent even more new things: Jinns, Wyverns etc. the problem will not be solved, rather it will be even more severe. Because you now have to explain what all this new things are and why we never had them before.

Dunefolk can be nicely introduced as they are now, without inventing or changing anything in their concept. Maybe through creating interaction between them and Drakes and/or Elves. This will give them some roots in Wesnoth and actual Kingdom of Wesnoth can safely be left in ignorance about Dunefolk. It will give some diversity to the story.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Eagle_11 »

If Drakes are the main enemy of dunefolk, then why they dont have any unit with cold damage in their lineup ? :eng:
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Airatgaljamov »

Pierce againts Drakes, fire and marksman against saurians good enough. And how possibly would they get cold?
Also I'd add that any definite statetment about first contact between Wesnoth and Dunefolk can be just avoided. In any case it is useless until we have some campaign about Dunefolk. And multiplayer default era either way has vague connections to the timeline and storyline so Loyals vs Dunefolk would not cause any outrage about historical inaccuracy.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Airatgaljamov wrote:I'm thinking that every problem you are mentioning is a more general and fundamental problem when one tries to insert some new element into established system.
More like when one tries to insert a poorly conceptualized new element into an established system without having the will to adapt the former to the latter.
Airatgaljamov wrote:And emphasized definition through lacks and nots is not the core problem. You can play around and convert any not into are.
My favorite color is not magenta. So can you guess what my favorite color is?

Telling what something is, is specific. Telling what something is not, is extremely vague.
Airatgaljamov wrote:But if try to invent even more new things: Jinns, Wyverns etc. the problem will not be solved, rather it will be even more severe. Because you now have to explain what all this new things are and why we never had them before.
You have that backwards. Explaining how another, unrelated, culture of humans arrived on a continent humans are not native to, is what requires extra explaining. Jinn, Rocs, Wyvern and whatever else could be native to the great continent or the world in general. Or they could have flown there as the drakes did.
Airatgaljamov wrote:Dunefolk can be nicely introduced as they are now, without inventing or changing anything in their concept.
They were "introduced" to mainline starting a long time ago and that introduction has never ended. They have been a source of huge controversy and very limited acceptance by the wider community. This is why they are so undeveloped even now and have been trapped in their own era for all these years. There has been great reluctance to see what happens when this faction is finally merged into default era and for good reason. Because when players can no longer easily avoid the faction and its many problems, that is when you can expect to see the greatest rejection.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Airatgaljamov wrote:Pierce againts Drakes, fire and marksman against saurians good enough. And how possibly would they get cold?
I can't speak for others, but I was talking about drakes the race, not drakes the faction. I think it's quite likely that the drakes who live near the southern desert don't work with saurians, so the dunefolk may have encountered drakes but not saurians.

As for how you can get cold in a desert, two things. First, deserts actually get cold, believe it or not. They're super-hot during the day, and comparatively very cold at night. In the winter it's quite possible to drop below freezing! Secondly, even ignoring that, it might be possible to produce cold using some sort of strong endothermic chemical reaction. I can't say whether it's likely for the dunefolk to know of such a thing, though.


So anyway, I decided to try my hand at writing a description too. I referenced Kasdel's description in writing this, but much of it is my own work. I also tried to avoid describing them by what they lack, as Cold Steel requested.
Another Proposal wrote: The Dunefolk are a human culture hailing from the southern desert, beyond the secretive elven forests. Nomadic tribes of Dunefolk constantly roam the desert, leading their herds from one watering hole to another. Many Dunefolk also gather into their bustling cities which are scattered across the desert, each ruled by a mostly-independent sultan, and camel caravans carry trade between the cities.

The Dunefolk are composed of cultured scholars, talented healers, and ferocious warriors who have mastered both steel and fire to decimate their enemies in combat. They are also skilled tamers, training the ferocious beasts of the desert in the art of war. Their beastly allies include the majestic rukh used for devastating aerial attacks and the wyvern mount used for long-range scouting.

As a result of living in the harsh desert for unknown ages past, the Dunefolk have developed rational methods of enquiry, through which they continue to improve their knowledge of the world. Their skill in herbal medicine perhaps rivals even the elves, providing them an efficient way to keep fighters alive between battles.

Due in large part to the presence of hostile elves serving as a buffer between the desert and the Kingdom of Wesnoth, there has been little to no contact with the Dunefolk. These elves aren't particularly forthcoming with information even on the rare occasions that they come into contact with the humans on either side of them.

The Dunefolk demonstrate a strong distaste for mages and the undead; though the use of magic is not wholly unknown to them, they have no access to organized schooling like the Kingdom of Wesnoth. The Dunefolk are also involved in frequent skirmishes with drakes to the northeast, largely over the rights to hunting the herds of the desert. They share the desert with the enigmatic, ethereal Jinn, with which they have uneasy relations. Some Dunefolk revere the Jinn, but others fear them on account of their fickle and sometimes unpredictable behaviour. Some say that the Jinn consider the desert to belong to them and merely tolerate the presence of the Dunefolk as long as it doesn't interfere with their own lifestyle.
Still needs much work (it's a rough draft), but anyway... I guess I can get some feedback first.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Airatgaljamov »

Cold Steel wrote:My favorite color is not magenta. So can you guess what my favorite color is?

Telling what something is, is specific. Telling what something is not, is extremely vague.
But for not magical you can turn it into active distrust and rejection of magic.
Cold Steel wrote: You have that backwards. Explaining how another, unrelated, culture of humans arrived on a continent humans are not native to, is what requires extra explaining. Jinn, Rocs, Wyvern and whatever else could be native to the great continent or the world in general. Or they could have flown there as the drakes did.
So why nobody have seen Rocs, Jinns or Wyverns before? All this time Wesnoth, Elves, Dwarves and others were in complete ignorance about the whole new world with a number of creatures enough to form a complete new set of factions for an era?
Do we really need to introduce something new in a race description that has completely no representation or reference in the game? I think not.
How can Jinns be added in a race description without question arising why don't we have Jinns faction in Default?
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: As for how you can get cold in a desert, two things. First, deserts actually get cold, believe it or not. They're super-hot during the day, and comparatively very cold at night. In the winter it's quite possible to drop below freezing!
Yeah, I'm perfectly aware of that. But this cannot be utilized.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: Secondly, even ignoring that, it might be possible to produce cold using some sort of strong endothermic chemical reaction. I can't say whether it's likely for the dunefolk to know of such a thing, though.
Introducing new unit with cold damage will be uneasy. Firstly And most importantly it would require new sprites. And new sprites will never be done. So we have to find a way of including Dunefolk without new sprites. For Default it would also touch the question of balance.

Celtic_Minstrel, if you allow, I can make some rearrengement, so the description would fit my vision.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zookeeper »

Since there was discussion about animals, mounts, cattle and whatnot, I'd like to point out that naturally the new mounts in UtBS are an obvious choice to include in some form. Those animals didn't just pop into existence between The Fall and UtBS, they had to have already existed somewhere.

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by name »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Still needs much work (it's a rough draft), but anyway... I guess I can get some feedback first.
The deeper problems with the dunefolk still remain in this draft, namely their conceptual blandness. Roughly half of this race description is just about their relations with other races, because there isn't much more we can say about dunefolk themselves without resorting to irrelevant fluff.

However, if this is aimed at v1.14 then it is about as good as can be before the string freeze in a few days. So I will suggest just a couple small tweaks as follows:
Celtic_Minstrel's Proposal wrote:Due in large part to the presence of hostile elves serving as a buffer between the desert and the Kingdom of Wesnoth, there has been little to no contact with the Dunefolk. These elves aren't particularly forthcoming with information even on the rare occasions that they come into contact with the humans on either side of them.
This is odd. Even if the dunefolk are somehow too backwards to have ships or boats, wesnoth certainly does have them (that's how they got here after all). Do the elves also dominate the ocean and block both human cultures from traveling along the coast and discovering one another?

And how/why are the elves consistently hostile for no reason for entire centuries?

I would just strike this paragraph.
Celtic_Minstrel's Proposal wrote:The Dunefolk demonstrate a strong distaste for mages and the undead; though the use of magic is not wholly unknown to them, they have no access to organized schooling like the Kingdom of Wesnoth.
I would also strike this as it ignores how the faction might be expanded in the future, like with magic carpet riders and jinn allies. (Plus how are fire spitting wyvern not magical creatures like their dragon and drake relatives?)

Magi-phobia will not even be a unique characteristic as the curmudgeonly dwarves already occupy this viewpoint: "Given their technological inclinations, many dwarves tend to distrust magic users."



Airatgaljamov wrote:So why nobody have seen Rocs, Jinns or Wyverns before? All this time Wesnoth, Elves, Dwarves and others were in complete ignorance about the whole new world with a number of creatures enough to form a complete new set of factions for an era?
Well, if you have such a big problem trying "to insert some new element into established system" then you should be against adding dunefolk altogether.

You seem to be employing a double standard for what can and cannot be inserted into canon lore. You have no problem with a whole culture of humans just popping out of nowhere without anyone noticing them or where they came from, yet rare creatures living in remote environments have to be featured at every petting zoo or they can not exist.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

zookeeper wrote:Since there was discussion about animals, mounts, cattle and whatnot, I'd like to point out that naturally the new mounts in UtBS are an obvious choice to include in some form. Those animals didn't just pop into existence between The Fall and UtBS, they had to have already existed somewhere.

ImageImage
Indeed, that gazelle-like one on the left in particular could make a good herd animal fitting with my description. The other would probably work as a herd animal too, though I'm not sure if they'd range as far across the sands.

So anyway, accounting for feedback from Airatgaljamov and Cold Steel, here's my revised description:
Celtic Minstrel's Proposal wrote: The Dunefolk are a human culture hailing from the southern desert, beyond the secretive elven forests. Nomadic tribes of Dunefolk constantly roam the desert, leading their herds from one watering hole to another. Some Dunefolk gather into their bustling cities which have grown up around the fertile spots scattered across the desert. Each city is mostly independent and ruled by a sultan. Caravans carry trade across harsh desert between the cities.

The Dunefolk are composed of cultured scholars, talented healers, and ferocious warriors who have mastered both steel and fire to decimate their enemies in combat. As a result of living in the harsh desert for unknown ages past, the Dunefolk have developed rational methods of enquiry, through which they continue to improve their knowledge of the world. Their skill in herbal medicine perhaps rivals even the elves, providing them an efficient way to keep fighters alive between battles. Moreover, the Dunefolk have learned to tame the peculiar beasts of the desert for warfare and destruction.

Due to impenetrable mountains and swamps, there has been little to no contact between the Kingdom of Wesnoth and the Dunefolk. Elves of the southern and far eastern forests aren't particularly forthcoming with information even on the rare occasions that they come into contact with the humans on either side of them. The Dunefolk are also involved in frequent skirmishes with drakes to the northeast, largely over the rights to hunting the desert herd-beasts.

Common fear and distaste for undead and dark magic is even stronger among the Dunefolk. The people of the desert have an unusual distaste for the supernatural, perhaps in part due to sharing the sands with the fickle, often unpredictable Jinn. As a result, most have little tolerance for a person who vainly tries to master the secrets no-one should have access to.
In fact, I only made a few tweaks to Airatgaljamov's revision (which I feel already pre-empted Cold Steel's comments).
Cold Steel wrote:This is odd. Even if the dunefolk are somehow too backwards to have ships or boats, wesnoth certainly does have them (that's how they got here after all). Do the elves also dominate the ocean and block both human cultures from traveling along the coast and discovering one another?
I see your point. I haven't gotten the impression that Wesnoth has a strong naval presence, mind you, but it's certainly true that they have ships. It's entirely possible that they just haven't had a reason to head south. It's also possible that there are physical obstacles making this difficult (a region that's difficult to navigate, for example).
Cold Steel wrote:And how/why are the elves consistently hostile for no reason for entire centuries?
I see them less as hostile and more as aloof and wary. They've seen what the humans (and orcs, who surely did more than their fair share as well) did to the forests long ago when they first arrived, so perhaps they just see no reason to try to get along with them.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Celtic_Minstrel wrote:In fact, I only made a few tweaks to Airatgaljamov's revision (which I feel already pre-empted Cold Steel's comments).
I do not really see how any of it preempted my two points. The dunefolk are still implausibly isolated and despise magic in general (unless the words "unnatural" and "supernatural" refer to something other than magic, but then this is quite unclear wording).
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I see your point. I haven't gotten the impression that Wesnoth has a strong naval presence, mind you, but it's certainly true that they have ships. It's entirely possible that they just haven't had a reason to head south.
Even if the kingdom won't spend the modest coinage to find out what threats and opportunities might lie just to their south along the coast, you still have sea traders and mermish that would be moving freely up and down it.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:It's also possible that there are physical obstacles making this difficult (a region that's difficult to navigate, for example).
This is fast becoming an impressively eclectic series of natural barriers conveniently separating these two groups of the same race. At this point, why not just put the dunefolk on a separate continent? Certainly that would be a more elegant way of keeping the two apart?
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I see them less as hostile and more as aloof and wary. They've seen what the humans (and orcs, who surely did more than their fair share as well) did to the forests long ago when they first arrived, so perhaps they just see no reason to try to get along with them.
There can also be no way around the forest or the point is moot. Swamps, dunes, mountains are not adequate barriers by themselves. Saurians, dwarves and the dunefolk themselves would be able to cross these, especially at certain points where the obstacles narrow or lessen in severity. Just look at how readily severe natural barriers to overland travel were overcome throughout real world history.
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