Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Airatgaljamov wrote: February 24th, 2018, 8:43 amNo individual is born among these people, who is capable of magic neither in old times on the Old Continent nor in present time.
I suspect that this doesn't conform to Wesnoth lore, though it's hard to be sure. Do we have strong evidence that magic is something you either have or don't have? My impression was that magic in Wesnoth was rather something that anyone can learn. The dunefolk then would've simply never discovered its secrets.

Also, I don't understand your map. In particular, it's too small for me to get a clear idea of where Weldyn is and where the OoA area is.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Airatgaljamov »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: February 24th, 2018, 10:32 pm I suspect that this doesn't conform to Wesnoth lore, though it's hard to be sure. Do we have strong evidence that magic is something you either have or don't have? My impression was that magic in Wesnoth was rather something that anyone can learn. The dunefolk then would've simply never discovered its secrets.
In DiD campaign we have
When Malin was 10, a mage who passed through the town sensed strong magical abilities in the boy.
So magic capabilities depend on inherent attributes of individual. But even if magic-capabilities are not on-off and rather a continious property, very low mean and lack of external examples may lead to total absence of magic among the Dunefolk. Also people on the Green Island had never known magic until Wesfolk and liches arrived.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: February 24th, 2018, 10:32 pm Also, I don't understand your map. In particular, it's too small for me to get a clear idea of where Weldyn is and where the OoA area is.
It can be opened on larger size. I intentionally left OoA area blank. Lower good quality map is from TSG, so OoA is to the south-east, there brown and white area border.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by MathBrush »

It seems like everyone has a different idea of how much magic the Dunefolk have/use. But the results of the developer's two first questions (does anyone object to mythological usage) indicates that it's okay for the Dunefolk to borrow from mythology. Having them never have encountered magic goes against the only consensus that's been established so far, because it prohibits any mythological elements.

I personally love the idea of rationalist Dunefolk using science and hating magic-users, but I think, based on the previous discussion, that they should have at least encountered magic in the past. I don't really like Cold Steel's idea where they are just the most uber-magiced fantasy faction available, either, though. I wish it was somewhere in the middle.

(although I told my 5 year old son about the debate and he said that crazy genies are way cooler than fire scientists).
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Sur_191 »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: February 24th, 2018, 10:32 pm ...My impression was that magic in Wesnoth was rather something that anyone can learn...
Except Drakes.
Drake race description wrote:Drakes are inherently magical creatures, with a mysterious internal fire fueling their very lives. This can easily be witnessed when one of their kind perishes in combat; its internal fire is released, burning their remains in to ashes. Their internal fire is also their greatest weakness; it makes them extremely vulnerable to cold attacks. Despite their magical nature, drakes are incapable of channeling magic in a controlled manner. While the magic imbued within a drake’s body enables it to spit fire and gives it life, they have no willful control over the functions of this magic.
Also the fact that mages of different races are using different kinds of magic (elves have fairy and nature magic, dwarfs have rune magic, mermaids have light/holy and water magic etc.) may mean different races can only learn certain forms of magic. Then again, it seems that everyone can learn necromancy (we have human, elf and dwarf necromancers in campaigns) and it looks like humans can learn most forms of magic.
Airatgaljamov wrote: February 24th, 2018, 10:50 pm ...So magic capabilities depend on inherent attributes of individual. But even if magic-capabilities are not on-off and rather a continious property, very low mean and lack of external examples may lead to total absence of magic among the Dunefolk. Also people on the Green Island had never known magic until Wesfolk and liches arrived...
Yes, but people of Green Island learned magic pretty quickly (I wonder how they did that; I doubt that Wesfolk were nice enough to teach them something), so I think that Dunefolk should be able to learn magic, if they would be under influence of some sorcerer.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Airatgaljamov wrote: February 24th, 2018, 10:50 pm It can be opened on larger size. I intentionally left OoA area blank. Lower good quality map is from TSG, so OoA is to the south-east, there brown and white area border.
Oh, for some reason I guess I didn't try clicking it last time. Alright, so your map seems to imply that, on the OoA map, you pretty much want them to live exclusively south of the river? That would mean the drakes and trolls need to be either in the southeast mountains (which now are more just east of them) and the dwarves... I don't even know. For the drakes though, I think this doesn't make as much sense - they arrived on the continent roughly along with the Wesfolk if I understand correctly, which means drakes down south implies they came down from the north. Unless of course there were more populations of drakes than the ones on the island, which I guess doesn't seem all that unlikely to me.

Then the desert north of the river could be the domain of jinn and sand worms, creating a more effective barrier than if it were just the northwest corner...
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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MathBrush wrote: February 24th, 2018, 11:12 pmI don't really like Cold Steel's idea where they are just the most uber-magiced fantasy faction available, either, though. I wish it was somewhere in the middle.
For the record, only two magical units were proposed- magic carpet riders and jinni. The undead, drakes and rebels would all be more magic focused factions than the dunefolk still. If considering the proliferation of advancements in the mage line, the loyalists would likely also have more magic units than the dunefolk.

Rocs and indriks are just large birds and real life rhinoceroses, respectively. There would be nothing magical about them. Replacing the indriks with war elephants would be further compliant with real world near eastern history.
MathBrush wrote: February 24th, 2018, 11:12 pm(although I told my 5 year old son about the debate and he said that crazy genies are way cooler than fire scientists).
Well at least the future wesnoth community agrees. ^_^
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by skeptical_troll »

Missed much of the conversation, but it seems to me that there are two lines of thought: one concerned about the 'dullness' and lack of fantasy elements, the other concerned about distorting the original concept of magic-free science/culture-based faction. I am myself in the latter, since in my opinion it is always harder to make magic-heavy worlds internally consistent and interesting, but I think the dispute can be easily solved if you decide to add fantastical elements which are not inherently magical. Mythological animals are the best, for me, not only they respond to that definition, but they could also hint at the Dunefolk's past: exotic, rare animals brought by them from the old continent which they can use to scare their enemies. Many were mentioned in the thread, but my favourite is the wyvern: there is already a high-quality sprite for two levels, it is used in OoA and, unlike for example the roc, it's not similar of something other factions have. I don't see why it cannot used in MP, if its stats and features are carefully tuned. Many complain about the falcon line because it is a very weak unit to control water: the wyvern rider could be a slow-ish (for a scout), expensive and low-defense unit which complements it. Of course, it's movetype should be tuned as well, I imagine the wyvern would be able to either fly or at least swim, if the weight it's carrying is too heavy.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:As such, I think arriving by ship or undersea cave is better; and the latter has plenty of problems of its own, too, but could maybe work out if it were some kind of Moses-style exodus. In the case of the cave option, I'd suggest they emerged somewhere in or near the northwest mountain range on that map (the one closest to the sea). They would have departed the old continent around the same time as the Wesfolk but taken several years to work their way to the new land
As the proposer of such idea, which is the lore background in RftA, I'd like to specify few details:
- it assumes that dwarves are present in the old continent as well, and they have close trading relationship with the dunefolk
- the underground route is found by a merchant/explorer who works in the court of a dwarvish king, and it is primarily used for trading and colonizing the new land (great continent). I liked to have something different from yet-another-exodus.
- not all the dunefolk moved to the east, but the route collapsed at some point and they remained split in two, at the two sides of the ocean.

this background (and RftA too) thus implies that dunefolk have a tradition of good relations with dwarves, mostly based on trade.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

skeptical_troll wrote: February 25th, 2018, 9:29 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:As such, I think arriving by ship or undersea cave is better; and the latter has plenty of problems of its own, too, but could maybe work out if it were some kind of Moses-style exodus. In the case of the cave option, I'd suggest they emerged somewhere in or near the northwest mountain range on that map (the one closest to the sea). They would have departed the old continent around the same time as the Wesfolk but taken several years to work their way to the new land
As the proposer of such idea, which is the lore background in RftA, I'd like to specify few details:
- it assumes that dwarves are present in the old continent as well, and they have close trading relationship with the dunefolk
- the underground route is found by a merchant/explorer who works in the court of a dwarvish king, and it is primarily used for trading and colonizing the new land (great continent). I liked to have something different from yet-another-exodus.
- not all the dunefolk moved to the east, but the route collapsed at some point and they remained split in two, at the two sides of the ocean.

this background (and RftA too) thus implies that dunefolk have a tradition of good relations with dwarves, mostly based on trade.
Interesting concept. I don't think a relationship with dwarves is required for a cave exodus, mind you; they could be led through the tunnels by other means, such as a jinn or a seer. Jinn aren't typically associated with the underground, so that might be a slight stretch, but they are said to be of fire, and deep underground is magma, so perhaps some jinn live underground.

My impression of the dwarves was in fact that they are native to the new continent, but that doesn't necessarily mean your scheme can't work - they could've entered into trading relations with the dunefolk because they discovered this tunnel that leads underseas to them. Still... I'm not sure I like this idea...
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

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Celtic_Minstrel wrote: February 25th, 2018, 9:28 pm Interesting concept. I don't think a relationship with dwarves is required for a cave exodus, mind you; they could be led through the tunnels by other means, such as a jinn or a seer. Jinn aren't typically associated with the underground, so that might be a slight stretch, but they are said to be of fire, and deep underground is magma, so perhaps some jinn live underground.
Indeed, I didn't meant that the relationship with dwarves is necessary, it is only implied in the history I envisioned. Lots of variations are possible, like the one you suggest. Another possibility: if jinns are powerful, semi-divine beings they could have revealed the underground route to some dunefolks who gained their favour, or because they had interest in them moving east, and for other inscrutable reasons they could have destroyed the route, maybe to prevent their return or just because they got upset with them. I still like more the dwarves version (less of a deus ex machina), but this achieves the same effects.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: February 25th, 2018, 9:28 pm My impression of the dwarves was in fact that they are native to the new continent
That's an interesting point, I remember doing some search about it while drafting the campaign, but couldn't find anything conclusive. The dwarves' race description says that they emerged from the underground and were among the first races inhabiting the great continent, I don't know if this means that they didn't appear anywhere else (and there's the precedent of Burin in tRoW). Still, if dunefolk used an underground route, it's likely that dwarves or troll were the first races they interacted with when approaching the great continent.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Caladbolg »

Pentarctagon wrote:3. How did the Dunefolk get here?
In order of how much I like the explanation:
By land bridge, by ships, from the east/south-east, via tunnels, by magic chariots.
Pentarctagon wrote:When did they get here?
Around the time of TRoW, maybe even before it. If they came a few years before, it wouldn't be strange that no one knew about them.
It's also possible to have them in the Great Continent for quite some time before TRoW. As far as elves and dwarves are concerned, they could've even known about their existence, but they simply knew them as Dunefolk. When the folks from the Green Isle came, they were known as Wesfolk. Only later did everyone come to the realisation that the Wesfolk and the Dunefolk are the same race, now broadly known as Humans. This is a plausible explanation for why the elves in TRoW think Haldric's people are the first of their kind in these lands- they didn't know that Haldric's people belong to the same race as the Dunefolk they're familiar with.
Pentarctagon wrote:And depending on when they got here, what sort of interactions or lack of interactions have taken place between them and the other races, and why?
I'd like them to have interactions with the Naga, Saurians and Drakes. Drakes in the south could've come long before Haldric's people, a splinter group that once left their homes (outcasts, explorers, etc.) and settled in the southern deserts. Considering there were dragons in the Great continent, I think having some drakes wouldn't be that strange. This way you can also make place for a drake campaign. I don't mind them having contact with other races either, just not orcs as they are far north.

I think it'd be good to include Dunefolk in the existing mainline campaigns. For example, the 1st scenario of HttT has orcs surrounding Aethenwood which is far south, basically near the proposed Dunefolk territory. I think that having Dunefolk mercenaries at that places makes much more sense than the orcish ones passing through the entire Wesnoth to reach the south and surround Aethenwood.

Come to think of it, the entire HttT has the issue that Asheviere is using Orcs as henchmen. I mean, the populace thinks the orcs killed their king, and that was ~17 years before HttT. In that small timeframe, not only is that apparently forgotten, but the soldiers of Wesnoth have basically completely accepted orcs as comrades and protectors. It'd make much more sense if Asheviere used Dunefolk mercenaries within Wesnoth and on the southern front, and Orcs on the northern front. Well, I'm aware this probably won't change, but that's my 2 cents on the issue. But it'd definitely be good to incorporate them somehow.

Pentarctagon wrote:Also, is this acceptable as far as general geography and their location?
Yes, but I still think that they need to populate the Sandy Wastes, if only sparsely. No matter how much worms, scorpions, jinns and horrid conditions there are, it is highly implausible the Dunefolk would not have any contact with elves and Wesnoth. Even more so if they they get some kind of flying unit or have some sort of alliance with the jinn.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Pentarctagon »

Updated summary:
1. It is acceptable to reference and-or use ideas from Middle Eastern cultures generally, rather than restricting the Dunefolk to only Arabic culture.
2. There are no objections to using parts of those culture's mythologies, as long as it doesn't start becoming a main focus of the faction.

For #3, that probably wasn't the best way to format the questions, so to split them out and also get everything that's been said so far a bit more organized and in one place:
  • 3a. How did the Dunefolk get to the Great Continent from the Old Continent?
    3a ideas:
  • 3b. When did they get to the Great Continent?
    3b ideas:
  • 3c. Depending on when they got here, what sort of interactions or lack of interactions have taken place between them and the other races, and why? If they arrived recently, then it's self-explanatory why they don't show up much; but if they arrived a while ago, then there needs to either be some explanation for why they don't appear elsewhere or a list of what all already exists in mainline that would need to be updated to include them.
    3c ideas:
  • 3d. What would be the general geography and their location on the Great Continent?
    3d ideas:
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by max_torch »

Pentarctagon's questions are concerning how, when, and where the dunefolk got to the Great Continent and what happens when they get there.
What about the "why?"
Therefore, I just wanna include the main ideas (with some revamping to align with current discussion here) which were the fruits from the old thread I made called "Story of the Khalifate" because the ideas from the old thread are also concerning "why" Dunefolk moved from Old Continent to the Great Continent

Why did Dunefolk move to the Great Continent?
1.):
2.):
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by zepko »

My answers. I am taking much of it from my post of some weeks ago [1].
1- No objections from my side.

2- No objections, but we should not change the focus of the faction.

3a- By ship. At some point, the desire for exploration intrinsic in the human nature lead them to the sea in front of their land, and to some islands they could see in the distance. Being not proficient in seafaring (they are a land, dunes, based civilization), they nonetheless decided to explore the first islands, then the islands a bit more far away, and so on. After some decades/centuries of island hopping, when they established colonies on most of the islands closer to their land, they decided to see what laid beyond the great ocean that extended in front of them. So a large expedition was organized, composed of people aware that their possible destination was far enough that they could possibly be unable to ever come back, if even they got there. Men and women alike left on the expedition, which, after months (years? how big is the world?), stopping on the sparse islands in the ocean, could finally reach the Great Continent (I can see a campaign telling the story of this epical journey). Shortly after that, they were unable to figure the way back to their homeland (the island disappeared, the sea charts have been lost in a storm, they did not want to travel back for years, whatever).

3b- Concurrently to the arrival of Haldric, a few years earlier or later (not so important). In this way, they have the time to build a thriving civilization in the Great Continent.

3c- Due to their geographical location, I see them having links with Nagas along their coastlines, some skirmish with Drakes (this imply some population of Drakes living south of Wesnoth, which is totally plausible), some occasional encounters with Trolls and/or Dwarves in the hilly areas in their land. Little or no relations with other races, except for a small number of the Dunefolk who may have crossed the desert to meet with Elves and/or humans from Wesnoth.
Indeed, during the centuries, some Dunefolk explorers have likely crossed the Sandy Wastes (OoA map) and made contact with Elves or humans from Wesnoth. But a stable connection has never been established because of the absence of water sources and the frequent sandstorms in the area (the Sandy Wastes). There can be plenty of reasons why the Dunefolk have not crossed earlier the sandy wastes, without involving jinn or supernatural beings (I don't want to appear annoying on this point, but jinns really do not fit with the current Wesnoth lore or style). Then we can hypothetically envisage some "taming of the Wastes" at some point in the history, when a more stable trading route has been opened across the desert.

3d- I kind of like the OoA basic geography.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Caladbolg »

Now that I've given it some thought, the Moses style exodus could actually be a really good solution for how they got to the Great Continent and it'd fit with a near-eastern theme. They (or maybe the jinn) use magic to part the seas, creating a narrow passage between the continents. Maybe not a stable one stretching the whole distance, but a moving area free of water, like a horizontal elevator. This could be a nice dose of fantasy to their lore without seeming incredibly outlandish, and it doesn't require the Dunefolk to go all the way south across the pole, but in a more or less straight line. Near the end, the magic juice runs out, and the seas crush a large portion of the passing Dunefolk, all but the ones that were in the front, leading the survivors to distrust magic as a fickle thing, preferring to study it in a purely theoretical manner.
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Re: Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

zepko wrote: February 26th, 2018, 3:28 pmI don't want to appear annoying on this point, but jinns really do not fit with the current Wesnoth lore or style
I wonder what reasoning you could have about Wesnoth's "lore and style" that allows for the dunefolk but can't possibly allow for jinn?
Caladbolg wrote: February 26th, 2018, 7:07 pm Now that I've given it some thought, the Moses style exodus could actually be a really good solution for how they got to the Great Continent and it'd fit with a near-eastern theme. They (or maybe the jinn) use magic to part the seas, creating a narrow passage between the continents. Maybe not a stable one stretching the whole distance, but a moving area free of water, like a horizontal elevator.
When I brought up Moses I didn't mean a literal parting of the seas; more the other aspects, whereby a "prophet" leads their people to a new land. I don't think a parting of the seas would work very well here. The Red Sea is actually quite a narrow body of water, but what the dunefolk need to cross is probably more like the Atlantic... or even the Pacific ocean.

I also think it would be a little strange for jinn to part the seas. Not that they couldn't do it, just that they probably aren't overly fond of water, so if the jinn were leading such an exodus an air-based pathway actually makes more sense to me.
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