Legend of Wesmere - Chapter V: Elvish civil war

[SanDonk]

I have a few thoughts about the final chapter of LoW and the Elvish civil war.

First of all I have to say, that I was really curious about the way, how Landar turned evil and led the bad faction in elvish civil war (well-known fact from general history). I think the idea with the potion (especially the "forgotten" one) is good. However, as a mildly experienced writer, I absolutely hate, when evil characters are evil, just to be evil without any real reason. I suppose, the potion should just wake up the evil already dwelling in each of us, but not simply make person unreasonable evil without any cause. The saurian mission was quite a great one - because he might had been really convinced, that he is acting for the goodness of elvish race (the dwarf one not so much, but ok, it is believable at least - make some dispute between him and Olurf would be nice addition however), but the beginning of elvish civil war and planned assassination of Kalenz is way too much unexplained.
My proposal: It might be a good idea to enrich the story for further explanation of this behaviour. From the flow of the story, it seemed realistic to me, that he would start the civil war, because he really liked and admired Kalenz and seriously believed, that he would make a great ruler over elves and wanted to help him eliminate the council and make him the great elvish lord. However Kalenz is rather calm, friendly with the decision, tired of all fights and devoted to the peace, so he abandon the idea and refuse to join Landar. Landar then might start a hastly ambush in panic, that Kalenz is about to tell council about his plans and during the ambush Kalenz might side with council, because of the worries of the future of elves after the council fall. Therefore Landar may claim him a traitor from his point of view and order assassins to kill him, because he might feel really betrayed.

Nice plot for the civil war I think. Great insight into the relationship between Kalenz and Landar and a way to make Landar much more tragic character and make a better reason for his future treatment as a hero in own specific way. Interested in your opinions. Especially in the campaign creaters/mainteiners (dont know its current status) ones.

[holypaladin]

Perhaps Landar was seeing Kalenz as "weak" character who befriended dwarfs and humans, Landar was against it as I remember.

[octalot]

Maybe Landar is trying to eliminate anyone who knows about the potion, because the druids have started to notice slightly weird magical auras around him, and if they ask Kalenz about it then they'll work out how to exorcise the lich. I'm guessing the potion is a very closely guarded secret, because the truth could unite the orc tribes into Great Horde against the elves. Even the elves who knew that Kalenz and Landar were near the orcs could believe that they were preparing an ambush, but that the orcs themselves did the murder.

[Mawmoocn]

I remember not finishing this campaign because it's too bloodthirsty when I read about the spoilers...

Anyways, I think Kalenz is not as good as you think.

Most of the things he did lacked diplomacy (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Landar was straightfoward on his goals.

Kalenz? From what I remember, most of the things he did can be attributed to Scenario 1 escape, Orcs sieged his town and had been building an army since then.

I guess he went "out of character" when he has to assassinate someone for "peace" (spoiler: he paid the price for it a.k.a. Landar)

Truth to be told I didn't have enthusiasm to continue that campaign when I knew I can't try to redeem Landar or something similar...

Landar is the product of violence and Kalenz is the "secretly plotting revenge" peace loving "vengeful" (read: wolf in) sheep.

While Kalenz does not seem this way, if you look at the scenario details, half of it is to kill Saurians, Orcs, burn the house of Saurians, also kill the leader to prevent a war.

The "no war" did and didn't occur, no more orc war but it resulted in elvish civil war.

While Landar may seem to be evil, if you look at Kalenz track record (violence, kill, save only elves, allied to humans to defend/kill orcs), what happened to Landar is the probable consequences of choosing violence over diplomacy.

It's harder to put those in words so his "unnecessary" evil is not fleshed out but the idea of consequences of action can be seen on Landar and Kalenz.

[holypaladin]

I remember not finishing this campaign because it's too bloodthirsty when I read about the spoilers...

Anyways, I think Kalenz is not as good as you think.

Most of the things he did lacked diplomacy (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Landar was straightfoward on his goals.

Kalenz? From what I remember, most of the things he did can be attributed to Scenario 1 escape, Orcs sieged his town and had been building an army since then.

I guess he went "out of character" when he has to assassinate someone for "peace" (spoiler: he paid the price for it a.k.a. Landar)

Truth to be told I didn't have enthusiasm to continue that campaign when I knew I can't try to redeem Landar or something similar...

Landar is the product of violence and Kalenz is the "secretly plotting revenge" peace loving "vengeful" (read: wolf in) sheep.

While Kalenz does not seem this way, if you look at the scenario details, half of it is to kill Saurians, Orcs, burn the house of Saurians, also kill the leader to prevent a war.

The "no war" did and didn't occur, no more orc war but it resulted in elvish civil war.

While Landar may seem to be evil, if you look at Kalenz track record (violence, kill, save only elves, allied to humans to defend/kill orcs), what happened to Landar is the probable consequences of choosing violence over diplomacy.

It's harder to put those in words so his "unnecessary" evil is not fleshed out but the idea of consequences of action can be seen on Landar and Kalenz.

Is he really that bad? As I remember that's Kalenz who helped humans against common enemy and even made allies from them despite of fact both were in not very friendly relations before (same with dwarfs before). When we travel north he listens to Cleodil and tries to avoid fighting yeti as they consider elves as invanders. Even at the end he don't seems to want kill Landar as You say, of course I would prefer some changes for campaining that would show Landar in better way.

[Mawmoocn]

Is he really that bad? As I remember that's Kalenz who helped humans against common enemy and even made allies from them despite of fact both were in not very friendly relations before (same with dwarfs before).

There were no orcs or let's say, despite the bad things the saurians did, he didn't spare the saurians.

There are two points, do we consider saurians as evil or another creature?

If we consider the former, even he's justified (evil because created from dark origins and a creature of darkness), it's still cruel to burn and kill every saurian.

If we make it as another creature, Kalenz commited genocide.

Saurians have shown basic intelligence.

In truth, I forgot who or maybe not said this, from what I recall, the reason they did that because they were afraid of revenge.

They were also afraid of Orc War.

They assasinated the Orc leader but, what are the consequences?



To be specific, it was narrated that Orcs became divided after that incident?

By some coincidence (????), Elvish civil war was also the "sequel".

The biggest problem was, they agreed to do the plan of someone else (assassination).

Kalenz while good has commited bad things.

One could argue that there's too much violence in this campaign that it may affected the sequel after Human Alliance scenario.

Kalenz is also a product of war and violence.

If we quote this person from scenario 1

Velon Dead
Kalenz: Velon, I swear on the life of Irdya that I will not let you be forgotten while elves yet draw breath to sing.

Velon has fallen. He counseled weakness, but did not deserved such an ugly death. We shall return with swords to avenge him!

Orc Leader: You won’t get very far! After them!

Velon Alive
Velon: Flee, Kalenz... find vengeance for us!

Kalenz: Velon, I swear on the life of Irdya that I will not let you be forgotten while elves yet draw breath to sing.

Velon: Swords will aid us more than songs, Kalenz; you saw that before I.

Kalenz: Swordsmen you shall have, as swiftly as I can find them and return.

Orc Leader: You won’t get very far! After them!

[holypaladin]

Is he really that bad? As I remember that's Kalenz who helped humans against common enemy and even made allies from them despite of fact both were in not very friendly relations before (same with dwarfs before).

There were no orcs or let's say, despite the bad things the saurians did, he didn't spare the saurians.

There are two points, do we consider saurians as evil or another creature?

If we consider the former, even he's justified (evil because created from dark origins and a creature of darkness), it's still cruel to burn and kill every saurian.

If we make it as another creature, Kalenz commited genocide.

Saurians have shown basic intelligence.

In truth, I forgot who or maybe not said this, from what I recall, the reason they did that because they were afraid of revenge.

They were also afraid of Orc War.

They assasinated the Orc leader but, what are the consequences?



To be specific, it was narrated that Orcs became divided after that incident?

By some coincidence (????), Elvish civil war was also the "sequel".

The biggest problem was, they agreed to do the plan of someone else (assassination).

Kalenz while good has commited bad things.

One could argue that there's too much violence in this campaign that it may affected the sequel after Human Alliance scenario.

Kalenz is also a product of war and violence.

If we quote this person from scenario 1

Velon Dead
Kalenz: Velon, I swear on the life of Irdya that I will not let you be forgotten while elves yet draw breath to sing.

Velon has fallen. He counseled weakness, but did not deserved such an ugly death. We shall return with swords to avenge him!

Orc Leader: You won’t get very far! After them!

Velon Alive
Velon: Flee, Kalenz... find vengeance for us!

Kalenz: Velon, I swear on the life of Irdya that I will not let you be forgotten while elves yet draw breath to sing.

Velon: Swords will aid us more than songs, Kalenz; you saw that before I.

Kalenz: Swordsmen you shall have, as swiftly as I can find them and return.

Orc Leader: You won’t get very far! After them!

You are not left without a point, and it is a fact that I Kalenz committed some serious crimes during the campaign. However, it is good to remember that when the lizards were murdered Kalenz (probably the only one) did not kill children as other elves did. Some parts of campaining are looking problematic for me as well, I think it's too simplified and maybe unfairly attacking every troll we passing (not these allied with orcs) for example in Hostile Mountains, Cliffs of Thoria, Battle of the Book and all without even any explanation (while dwarfs who also are not friend with elves were treated much better than Kalenz)

[Mawmoocn]

However, it is good to remember that when the lizards were murdered Kalenz (probably the only one) did not kill children as other elves did.

The sad thing about Kalenz's fate and life is that, if the Orc raid didn't occur, he would have been a kind person excelling in many different things other than war. Maybe Landar would be different or not

Some parts of campaining are looking problematic for me as well, I think it's too simplified and maybe unfairly attacking every troll we passing (not these allied with orcs) for example in Hostile Mountains, Cliffs of Thoria, Battle of the Book and all without even any explanation (while dwarfs who also are not friend with elves were treated much better than Kalenz)

I based this comment from my own interpretation and experience, they probably simplified it due to basic knoweledge that Orcs and their allies are "bad" (to be specific: based on what I recall, Orcs like fighting), which can be true and not.

The issue with trolls, based from what I remember on some details, is that they are close to Orcs.

Still, those who weren't part of it shouldn't be killed or at the very least, spared.

I guess, killing was normal for that timeline or enemies, which is also another problem in itself.



Sad to say, if scenario 1 was about elf vs elf, I wouldn't have played it.

I was biased on elf vs elf but, not elf vs saurian, and elf vs troll.

That is problematic, because if there isn't any Elvish civil war, I would not realize what they did..... (this topic maybe)

[holypaladin]

However, it is good to remember that when the lizards were murdered Kalenz (probably the only one) did not kill children as other elves did.

The sad thing about Kalenz's fate and life is that, if the Orc raid didn't occur, he would have been a kind person excelling in many different things other than war. Maybe Landar would be different or not

Some parts of campaining are looking problematic for me as well, I think it's too simplified and maybe unfairly attacking every troll we passing (not these allied with orcs) for example in Hostile Mountains, Cliffs of Thoria, Battle of the Book and all without even any explanation (while dwarfs who also are not friend with elves were treated much better than Kalenz)

I based this comment from my own interpretation and experience, they probably simplified it due to basic knoweledge that Orcs and their allies are "bad" (to be specific: based on what I recall, Orcs like fighting), which can be true and not.

The issue with trolls, based from what I remember on some details, is that they are close to Orcs.

Still, those who weren't part of it shouldn't be killed or at the very least, spared.

I guess, killing was normal for that timeline or enemies, which is also another problem in itself.




Sad to say, if scenario 1 was about elf vs elf, I wouldn't have played it.

I was biased on elf vs elf but, not elf vs saurian, and elf vs troll.

That is problematic, because if there isn't any Elvish civil war, I would not realize what they did..... (this topic maybe)

Hard to not agree with that fact. When I first time played LoW years ago I remember I didn't like the fact that we just kill all trolls we see on road (Unlike the saurians it has been shown that not all of them support the invasion, by the way this is still early times, not long after the arrival of humans and orcs on the continent so it is not surprising that the orc-troll bond is not yet widespread everywhere). Orcs are united in this campaining and cooperating to get Ruby of Fire (this also shocked me, in Sceprer of Fire that was made before Legend of Wesmere is written that orcs and trolls living in Knalga didn't know what it means). While I appreciate Kalenz and Cleodil's efforts to reconcile with dwarves and humans, it's clear that when it comes to orcs (and saurians) they don't seem to show them basic respect as rational beings (that's problem in many campainings). As for civil war it looks like both sides had it's faults... (at the same time orcs are in civil war as well, ironic to see both races fighting and killing each other after both were so united before)

[Mawmoocn]

Orcs are united in this campaining and cooperating to get Ruby of Fire (this also shocked me, in Sceprer of Fire that was made before Legend of Wesmere is written that orcs and trolls living in Knalga didn't know what it means)

I think, the form of the ruby was the greatest distinction that seperated the ruby and the scepter of fire.

Except for the royalty, no one knows except for the few involved and eventually became a myth.

Though I don't buy it due to how powerful it is. (I guess the power is subdued or hidden due to it being processed as a scepter)

However this is quite biased to Orcs intelligence

https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... ialogue_13

... During that time, it sat in the caves of the Northlands, unfound but undestroyed, moved around by Orcs who never understood its true power.

As for civil war it looks like both sides had it's faults... (at the same time orcs are in civil war as well, ironic to see both races fighting and killing each other after both were so united before)

In the past (maybe in the present too?), Kalenz lacked diplomacy, the elvish council before Kalenz, isn't better.

If we quote what happens on The Rise ot Wesnoth:
Scenario 18: A Spy in the Woods

Disclaimer: Dialog might be outdated.

Lord Aryad: We may have decided wrongly. If the humans drive the orcs off we should honor our pledge. If more trouble follows them here we should let them fight it out, then we should 'deal' with the survivors, and make a compromise with the Dwarves.

Lady Dionli: But we spoke a Pact with this Haldric and these men of the west-north...

Lord Logalmier: We are the people of the forest, you know that all words spoken to these un-people are of secondary importance to our own needs. As Lord Aryad said, 'If more trouble follows them here we should let them fight it out, then we should 'deal' with the survivors, and make a compromise with the Dwarves.'

Lord El'Isomithir: Agreed.

Lady Dionli: (Sigh) Agreed.

Lord Logalmier: Agreed.

From here on, it's more complicated, if we believe this statement from Haldric:

From:
Campaign Dialogue:TROW#Greeting: No Quests Done

Prince Haldric: We only wish to live in peace. The dwarves are peoples of mountain and hill, the elves are people of the forests, we only seek some of the space in between.

however,

From: Scenario 21: The Plan

Prince Haldric: We're going to convince Jevyan that we gave the elves the Ruby of Fire to secure our place in this new land. Then if the orcs return, hopefully they'll go looking for our not-so-loyal elven allies first.

Lady Jessene: Haldric, that's devious. I kind of like this plan. But you spoke a pact with the elves. You'll be expected to come to their aid.

Prince Haldric: Yes, and we may come to their aid. We'll have to weigh our options when and if the time comes. If the orcs return in great numbers, the brunt of their assault must fall on somebody else or we will not survive it. Who knows, maybe I won't even come to their aid at all -

Lady Jessene: Many people would call you a coward if you did not. They would say that you turned your back on your pact with the elves. It's not like you can tell people what I overheard.

Prince Haldric: Recent events have taught me one thing: that survival trumps honor. Besides, they won't be screaming at me - I'll be dead.

Lady Jessene: WHAT!

Prince Haldric: I'll be dead. I mean we can't just say that we gave away the Ruby of Fire, or send Jevyan a letter. Well, we are going to say it - but that's not the point. Jessene, you're going to forge a very official looking treaty, in which we give the elves the Ruby of Fire, in return for our place here.

I've skipped his other dialogs but he didn't persist on doing good because he knew of their plot.

To cut the story short, they treated the alliance as non existent...

All Orcs Killed

Prince Haldric: The plan revolved around some orcs making it back to the Green Isle to tell their kin that the elves have the Ruby of Fire so we wouldn't have to bear the brunt of the next invasion.

but,

Campaign Dialogue:TROW#Greeting: No Quests Done

Lady Dionli: I suggest that we grant these humans the plains to the north and south of the Great River.

Lord Aryad: They should be put to the test before such a grant is made.

Lord El'Isomithir: A quest for each of us then?

Lady Dionli: Agreed.

Lord Aryad: Agreed.

Lord Logalmier: Agreed. (Sigh)

Prince Haldric: Umm, agreed.

Lord Aryad: Well then, human. Each of us lords has a specific quest for you. If you complete them all you will be granted all of the plains in our domain and the hills south of the Great River, if not you will be forced to depart. So which quest do you wish to undertake first?

also,

Lord El'Isomithir: So you come to steal our land? We know your kind, humans of the west-north.

The problem:

Victory from fighting against the Dragon

Prince Haldric: I'm glad that's over. The elves certainly aren't taking it easy on us. It's a miracle any of us are alive at all.

https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... Defeated_5

Prince Haldric: The trolls are beaten, but they were no easy opponents. It is no wonder why the elves pressed us to do their dirty work.

While it may not seem to be fair (debatable), this person agreed to do these things to have a share of their land.

The problem was, even if the elves have a bad plot, he didn't pursue and persist on peace.

Therefore, the plot of Legend of Wesmere came to be.

Saurian Empire destroyed, Elvish Council killed, Orcs seiged the land of the Elves, a banished friend, curses and more bloodshed after but why?

From: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialogue:TROW#Victory_4

Elilmaldur-Rithrandil: The lich was carrying a powerful artifact. We know, we can feel it. This artifact may aid you in your quest.

Lady Outlaw: He must mean the Ruby of Fire. It was our most powerful artifact. We brought it with us from the east. We thought it was lost in the war with your people, when Lich-Lord Lenvan fell!

I would cut the story there, the ruby seems to be special and coveted or not really special but coveted by many, due to the power it brings.

Disregarding the ruby plotline, Haldric is one of the main issues for Legend of Wesmere.

He, also didn't pick diplomacy or alliance.

Kalenz's.....
https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... _the_Front

Kalenz: We face a difficult choice. I know humans did not help us when the orcs attacked, but the orcs are everybody’s enemy. When humans fall, we’ll be next.

[holypaladin]

Orcs are united in this campaining and cooperating to get Ruby of Fire (this also shocked me, in Sceprer of Fire that was made before Legend of Wesmere is written that orcs and trolls living in Knalga didn't know what it means)

I think, the form of the ruby was the greatest distinction that seperated the ruby and the scepter of fire.

Except for the royalty, no one knows except for the few involved and eventually became a myth.

Though I don't buy it due to how powerful it is. (I guess the power is subdued or hidden due to it being processed as a scepter)

However this is quite biased to Orcs intelligence

https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... ialogue_13

... During that time, it sat in the caves of the Northlands, unfound but undestroyed, moved around by Orcs who never understood its true power.

As for civil war it looks like both sides had it's faults... (at the same time orcs are in civil war as well, ironic to see both races fighting and killing each other after both were so united before)

In the past (maybe in the present too?), Kalenz lacked diplomacy, the elvish council before Kalenz, isn't better.

If we quote what happens on The Rise ot Wesnoth:
Scenario 18: A Spy in the Woods

Disclaimer: Dialog might be outdated.

Lord Aryad: We may have decided wrongly. If the humans drive the orcs off we should honor our pledge. If more trouble follows them here we should let them fight it out, then we should 'deal' with the survivors, and make a compromise with the Dwarves.

Lady Dionli: But we spoke a Pact with this Haldric and these men of the west-north...

Lord Logalmier: We are the people of the forest, you know that all words spoken to these un-people are of secondary importance to our own needs. As Lord Aryad said, 'If more trouble follows them here we should let them fight it out, then we should 'deal' with the survivors, and make a compromise with the Dwarves.'

Lord El'Isomithir: Agreed.

Lady Dionli: (Sigh) Agreed.

Lord Logalmier: Agreed.

From here on, it's more complicated, if we believe this statement from Haldric:

From:
Campaign Dialogue:TROW#Greeting: No Quests Done

Prince Haldric: We only wish to live in peace. The dwarves are peoples of mountain and hill, the elves are people of the forests, we only seek some of the space in between.

however,

From: Scenario 21: The Plan

Prince Haldric: We're going to convince Jevyan that we gave the elves the Ruby of Fire to secure our place in this new land. Then if the orcs return, hopefully they'll go looking for our not-so-loyal elven allies first.

Lady Jessene: Haldric, that's devious. I kind of like this plan. But you spoke a pact with the elves. You'll be expected to come to their aid.

Prince Haldric: Yes, and we may come to their aid. We'll have to weigh our options when and if the time comes. If the orcs return in great numbers, the brunt of their assault must fall on somebody else or we will not survive it. Who knows, maybe I won't even come to their aid at all -

Lady Jessene: Many people would call you a coward if you did not. They would say that you turned your back on your pact with the elves. It's not like you can tell people what I overheard.

Prince Haldric: Recent events have taught me one thing: that survival trumps honor. Besides, they won't be screaming at me - I'll be dead.

Lady Jessene: WHAT!

Prince Haldric: I'll be dead. I mean we can't just say that we gave away the Ruby of Fire, or send Jevyan a letter. Well, we are going to say it - but that's not the point. Jessene, you're going to forge a very official looking treaty, in which we give the elves the Ruby of Fire, in return for our place here.

I've skipped his other dialogs but he didn't persist on doing good because he knew of their plot.

To cut the story short, they treated the alliance as non existent...

All Orcs Killed

Prince Haldric: The plan revolved around some orcs making it back to the Green Isle to tell their kin that the elves have the Ruby of Fire so we wouldn't have to bear the brunt of the next invasion.

but,

Campaign Dialogue:TROW#Greeting: No Quests Done

Lady Dionli: I suggest that we grant these humans the plains to the north and south of the Great River.

Lord Aryad: They should be put to the test before such a grant is made.

Lord El'Isomithir: A quest for each of us then?

Lady Dionli: Agreed.

Lord Aryad: Agreed.

Lord Logalmier: Agreed. (Sigh)

Prince Haldric: Umm, agreed.

Lord Aryad: Well then, human. Each of us lords has a specific quest for you. If you complete them all you will be granted all of the plains in our domain and the hills south of the Great River, if not you will be forced to depart. So which quest do you wish to undertake first?

also,

Lord El'Isomithir: So you come to steal our land? We know your kind, humans of the west-north.

The problem:

Victory from fighting against the Dragon

Prince Haldric: I'm glad that's over. The elves certainly aren't taking it easy on us. It's a miracle any of us are alive at all.

https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... Defeated_5

Prince Haldric: The trolls are beaten, but they were no easy opponents. It is no wonder why the elves pressed us to do their dirty work.

While it may not seem to be fair (debatable), this person agreed to do these things to have a share of their land.

The problem was, even if the elves have a bad plot, he didn't pursue and persist on peace.

Therefore, the plot of Legend of Wesmere came to be.

Saurian Empire destroyed, Elvish Council killed, Orcs seiged the land of the Elves, a banished friend, curses and more bloodshed after but why?

From: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialogue:TROW#Victory_4

Elilmaldur-Rithrandil: The lich was carrying a powerful artifact. We know, we can feel it. This artifact may aid you in your quest.

Lady Outlaw: He must mean the Ruby of Fire. It was our most powerful artifact. We brought it with us from the east. We thought it was lost in the war with your people, when Lich-Lord Lenvan fell!

I would cut the story there, the ruby seems to be special and coveted or not really special but coveted by many, due to the power it brings.

Disregarding the ruby plotline, Haldric is one of the main issues for Legend of Wesmere.

He, also didn't pick diplomacy or alliance.

Kalenz's.....
https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... _the_Front

Kalenz: We face a difficult choice. I know humans did not help us when the orcs attacked, but the orcs are everybody’s enemy. When humans fall, we’ll be next.

The main problem in elvish-human relations seems to be statement of Ka'lian (using humans for elvish goals, not fulfilling the alliance) which made humans suspicious toward elves and broke chance to potential good relations. Horewer having Ruby of Fire conflicted Haldric not only with Jevyan and orcs determined to chase him trought continents but elves as well. Cleranu mentions Haldric became suspicious towards him so he choosed to live on exile (as for me Cleranu is not very good written figure here, we don't know much about his past). Saurians choosed orcs side in Rise of Wesnoth when Shek'Kahan fallen, propably were seeking for new leader (and by connection with nagas that were before close both to orcs and saurians). As for Haldric he died in Legend of Wesmere what brought big crisis to Wesnoth and propably that's what encouraged Kalenz to help humans in Tath.