Age of Karun and Kapou'e

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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 17th, 2017, 12:54 pm

Skeptikal_troll wrote:first, if the criterion is not age but bravery and strength

Timeline wrote:In response, the Great Council set up by the Black Eye Karun calls upon The Great Horde and bestows leadership of it upon Kapou’e; Son of the Black Eye begins.

Seems like the Great Council decides over the next leader after all. They are highly respected among all orcs, so I wouldn't disagree with that. And in that case, it is also very likely that the criterion is bravery and strength.

Skeptical_troll wrote:What you suggest for Kapou'e, i.e. him waiting for the elder brothers to weaken each other and then joining at the last minute to win the fight, doesn't sound a great show of honor and courage, the quality orcs seek in a chief.


I just added the lines pyndragon was suggesting. :whistle:
@pyndragon, You might want to rethink that part. He is not wrong. ^^
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby pyndragon » June 17th, 2017, 3:57 pm

skeptical_troll wrote:first, if the criterion is not age but bravery and strength (I actually like this idea very much), then I'd also think that being a son of the previous chief should be irrelevant. However, it is likely that chiefs and generals have the strongest genes, or have the possibility to choose better and more partners than common orcs, so lineage does matter but only indirectly. Alternatively, being 'son' of the chief is just a honorific title given to whomever is designated as the successor, it doesn't have the real biological meaning. This also makes sense if they litter in great numbers as the wiki says: sometimes they may just lost track of who is son of who!


I actually really like this thought, but I believe Kapou'e is presented as Karun's physical rather than metaphorical son.

SotBE S09 wrote:Gork: "You are a troll, so you don’t know. These lands are ruled by Shan Taum the Smug, who was a rival of Black-Eye Karun."
Pirk: "I doubt he would welcome the son of the Black-Eye."
Shan Taum: "Who is that? Kapou’e! What are you doing in my lands, you weakling runt?"
Kapou'e: "Hold on, Shan Taum. We seek the Great Council, not a quarrel with you."
Shan Taum: "Bwahaha! You are nothing! Where is your land? You became a beggar. You are as pathetic as your father!"
Kapou'e: "How can you talk that way about my father, you miserable coward?! I’ll make a mug from your skull!"


But perhaps son-ship could refer to succession, while one's father is an actual ancestor. So you might say something like "Arshok was fathered by Grash, but became the son of Kranak."

skeptical_troll wrote:Second: although barbaric, orcs still live in an ancient and long-lasting society, which is likely to set some rules on how the fight for succession works. Letting all the aspirants fight each other how and when they like would break order and discipline apart, making them very vulnerable to external enemies.


Except that this is exactly what happens:

SotBE S01 wrote:...with the death of the Black-Eye, the unity of the orcs was shattered and they once again descended into inner squabbling.

LoW S12 wrote:Crelanu: "You need to kill their Great Chief and make it look like he was murdered by orcs. That way the orcs will start a civil war for succession, for many yearn to take their Great Chief’s place. You will be safe until a new leader arises strong enough to unite them again."

NR S14a wrote:Tallin: The orcs are exceedingly numerous and warlike. While they squabble among themselves, their warlike nature turns upon itself and they are no threat; but when a strong warlord like Rakshas arises among them, their battle-lust becomes a plague upon their neighbors.


The orcs are always fighting, whether it's among themselves or not. If you could somehow keep the orcs from fighting at all, their population would boom until starvation hit and the population cratered again.

What you suggest for Kapou'e, i.e. him waiting for the elder brothers to weaken each other and then joining at the last minute to win the fight, doesn't sound a great show of honor and courage, the quality orcs seek in a chief. I think that even if unregulated fight was probably the way in earliest orcish tribes, they must have restrained it in some ritual form in the centuries. Maybe the heir can be formally challenged in a duel, or there could be middle-age-like tournaments. Alternatively, aspirants may have to sustain specific trials, like fighting and killing some monster, or being sent into elvish territory with few followers with the goal of chopping off more elvish heads than what the standing heir had done before. Or anything of the kind..[/quote]

Not according to the official description of orcs:

Wesnoth Help wrote:Orc societies are based on little else but strength; might makes right, and a leader leads and survives only as long as no one manages to wrest the title from him. A constant struggle for power simmers among potential tribal chiefs. An orcish leader rarely lives more than a handful of years to enjoy his absolute authority before being killed for his position — although history knows some notable exceptions. Orcs hold no particular honor code and while indisputable raw strength is usually the preferred method of displaying power, assassination, poisoning and backstabbing are completely viable means to further one’s own goals.


Bitron wrote:Seems like the Great Council decides over the next leader after all. They are highly respected among all orcs, so I wouldn't disagree with that. And in that case, it is also very likely that the criterion is bravery and strength.


The Great Council does not choose leaders. Calling up the Great Horde means only that you get to be general for a specific task. In Kapou'e's case, this occurs up to three times — the time we see in SotBE, and the two attempted invasions in the epilogue. When you get called up for the Great Horde, you get food but not pay. It's an hour of need, "call up the levies" thing. The standing army he maintains is different; these soldiers would be long-term, payrolled troops.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 17th, 2017, 5:12 pm

pyndragon wrote:I actually really like this thought, but I believe Kapou'e is presented as Karun's physical rather than metaphorical son.

It could simply be both.
pyndragon wrote:The Great Council does not choose leaders. Calling up the Great Horde means only that you get to be general for a specific task. In Kapou'e's case, this occurs up to three times — the time we see in SotBE, and the two attempted invasions in the epilogue. When you get called up for the Great Horde, you get food but not pay. It's an hour of need, "call up the levies" thing. The standing army he maintains is different; these soldiers would be long-term, payrolled troops.

I see.. so basically, Kapou'e is not like some kind of 'king' sitting in Barag Gor all the time, but only takes leadership in times of mentioned invasions, be it elvish or human..'ish?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby pyndragon » June 17th, 2017, 5:29 pm

Bitron wrote:
pyndragon wrote:I actually really like this thought, but I believe Kapou'e is presented as Karun's physical rather than metaphorical son.

It could simply be both.


Right, I'm fine with that, as I said.

Bitron wrote:I see.. so basically, Kapou'e is not like some kind of 'king' sitting in Barag Gor all the time, but only takes leadership in times of mentioned invasions, be it elvish or human..'ish?


Right. It's not like Wesnoth, where the king has tons of authority. But he's not just some paper figure, as he has influence over the other tribes. It's a lot easier for him to get the Council to agree on things, no-one complains when he builds a professional army, and everyone has to pretty much stay in line because he can call on those large reserves on influence if he ever needs to put a smack-down on people. The tribes are loyal to him, even if they only really actually listen to him when the Great Council meets and otherwise obey their clan chief.
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