Age of Karun and Kapou'e

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Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 16th, 2017, 1:03 am

I'd like to discuss the age of Karun and Kapou'e (and any further issues that might appear within this discussion) in this thread.

There is a hint for the age of an average orc given in the race description
wiki wrote:The oldest known orcs have been around 50 to 60 years of age, but very few individuals ever live to see over two or three decades before meeting their end either in war or by the hand of one of their kin.

The timeline says that "The Legacy of Karun" is from 761 YW to 816 YW, which is 55 years. That is a pretty long time span for an orc to reign.

Now I have some questions.

1) When was Karun born?
There are to ways to interprete the timeline. One could say, Legacy of Black Eye Karun stats with his reign or his birth. With the latter, he would be 55 years old by his (unatural) death, which is already a very decent age for an orc, according to the race description. With the former, he had to be a few years old when he claimed leadership over all orcish tribes. Even as a very strong and talented, I'd guess about 16 years old in 761, which would mean theat he'd be about 71 years old at times of his death. That is a little too old I guess.

2) What is the usual age for orcs to get children?
Even if Kapou'e was born at the time when his father Karun died, Kapou'e would be 42 years old when SotBE ends in 858 YW, which is pretty old. But I guess orcs are close to humans when it comes to having children. They have a lot more children, again according to the race description but I think at about the same age, means like between 16 and lets say 30 years. Let's go further with the birth of Karun in 761 YW. Now, let's say Kapou'e was born when Karun was 30 years old. That would be in 791 YW. Kapou'e would be 51 years old in 842 YW when he claims leadership in the beginning of SotBE, not to mention his decent age of 67 years in the end of SotBE in 858 YW. Again, that would be too old for an orc, even for a great one like Kapou'e.. to justify Kapou'e still living in this year, Kapou'e has to be born way later. But since orcs don't have usually only about 30 years to live, they would never wait so long to have children. For a race, dying that fast, they'd do it as soon as they can.

I think thats enough for the start.. so, what do you guys think? Rewriting race decritption? Or SotBE? Does it matter at all?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » June 16th, 2017, 1:30 am

Unless there's some portent or prophesy involved, I think it's nonsensical to suggest that someone's legacy begins at their birth. Starting with his reign is the most likely; in principle it could be something else, but for an orc I think reign makes the most sense.

For the age at which they have children, I too would assume most choose to do so early. Note that we're not talking about regular humans here, so there's no real problem with pushing back their "age of maturity" to, say, 13 or 14, if that helps. They're a fictional race, so pretty much anything goes in theory. I don't have any opinions on whether this should be done though.

I guess you'd probably want to reduce the timespan in any case, though. If 50 is a typical lifespan, then 55 years is much too long to rule - 45 is a more reasonable upper bound, and even that might be a bit high? Though it depends on what's decided for the question of when they have children and are considered full adults.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 16th, 2017, 9:30 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Starting with his reign is the most likely

Okay, I'll go further with this, then.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:..., so there's no real problem with pushing back their "age of maturity" to, say, 13 or 14, if that helps.

Let's say it is 13 or 14. I think they should be concidered as adults a little later, like 15 or 16. Now, with Karun starting his reign at the age of 15 would mean he'd be 70 years old at 816 YW when he dies. If anything could be changed, I think it is the easiest to let the reign just start later. 16 years maybe.

762 - Karun was born, 778 - Karun starts his reign, 816 - Karun dies after 39 years of reign, beeing 54 years old (which is still a very good age for an orc).

So now, if the age of maturity is around the age of 13-14, it is likely that Kapou'e was born when Karun was between 15 and 20. Lets just say 20. That would be in 782. That means by times of Karuns death, Kapou'e would already be 34 years old, 60 years old when SotBE begins and 76 years old when SotBE ends. That would still be to old for an orc. Even with the changes about Karun, SotBE would need to take place earlier. Well, or Kapou'e is not Karuns son, but his grandson. But that would break a lot I guess.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby skeptical_troll » June 16th, 2017, 9:39 am

It could be that orcs are still fertile when they are old, like many species. Especially if he's a great chief, it's unlikely that he had only one son (unless this is mentioned somewhere), maybe he had many but most of them died in battle or due to other reasons, and Kapou'e was one of the last ones.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 16th, 2017, 9:59 am

skeptical_troll wrote:Especially if he's a great chief, it's unlikely that he had only one son

wiki wrote:While other races usually bear children singly or in pairs, orcs will have large litters of children all at once, causing their populations to explode rather quickly. Within any litter, there will only be one or two true orcs, who will grow to the full size and strength of their race.

It is very unlikely anyways. But speaking of Kapou'e as "the" Son of Karun, I think it is likely that he is the firstborn of Kapou'e (if that matters among the orcs).
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby skeptical_troll » June 16th, 2017, 11:10 am

Maybe he's the only survivor, hence the heir? :hmm: if the mortality rate is so high that's a possibility. All the elder siblings died before Karun.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 16th, 2017, 12:01 pm

Well, okay, Kapou'e is one of the youngest sons of Karun and the only survivor, born when, say, Karun was about 48. Given what I wrote earlier (with Karun born at 762 YW), that would be in 810 YW
Kapou'e would be 6 years old when Karun dies in 816 YW, 32 when he claims leaderchip in 842 YW and 48 at the end of SotBE in 858 YW. That is still old, but would fit.

"old suggestion (outdated)":


Edit: After a little discussion in discord #general, i set up an alternative timeline (-part). Additions/Changes are underlined.
New timeline suggestion
776 YW
- Karun is born


793-816 YW: Legacy of Black-Eye Karun
After decades of struggle, Black-Eye Karun becomes the first warlord since the assassination of Great Chief Brurbar in 20 YW to unite all the different squabbling orcish tribes under his banner. Among his many accomplishments as a Sovereign, his most famous is the creation of the Great Council.
Karun was a far-sighted individual and he knew that after his death the orcish tribes would once again turn to fighting among themselves, with little he could do to prevent that and consequent peril from the Wesnothians and elves.
Consequently, Karun selected from among all the different tribes six of the most sober and wisest orcs and thus created the Great Council. It was the Great Council's job to stay aloof from any tribal or territorial squabbling amongst the orcs, but yet always remain there to give advice to whomever came to seek it. In order to preserve the orcish race in the event of an emergency, he invested in them the power to call up The Great Horde. It was established that every orc, no matter what tribe he came from, must obey the summons of The Great Horde and follow wholeheartedly the leader that the Great Council put at the head of The Great Horde.

Note: Karun started to gather a small group of orcs at the age of 17, then building up his power until he dies at 40.

810 YW
- Kapou’e is born


812 YW
- Rahul becomes Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance

816 YW
- Rahul I (Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance) and Black Eye Karun sign a peace treaty ending a 15 year war between the humans and the orcs. Soon after this Karun, is ambushed and killed in mysterious circumstances.

829 YW
- Howgarth III succeeds Rahul I as Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance

842 YW
- Famine in the Northlands. Famine led humans to colonize some orcish lands and push orcs into desolated hill country. The few orcish tribes who had remained part of the Alliance, feeling the pressure, either left Alliance territory or revolted and were destroyed.
- Retaliating, the orcs systematically slaughtered human colonies and villages on their lands. Then, Earl Lanbec'h — the most powerful human warlord of the North — determined to abolish the orcish menace raised an army and conferred leadership of it to his son-in-law Baron Alber.
- In response, the Great Council set up by the Black Eye Karun calls upon The Great Horde and bestows leadership of it upon Kapou’e; Son of the Black Eye begins.

Note: Kapou’e is about 32 years old at this point.

843 YW
- Half of the Great Council is treacherously slain by the allied human forces and orcish unity disintegrates. Faced with the extermination of all the orcs on the Great Continent, Kapou’e forcibly asserts his control over the orcish territories and defeats the enemy forces. The Northern Alliance arrives on the scene in time for the final battle and helps Kapou’e defeat the forces of the northern earldoms, who had broken the treaty. Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
- After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.

852 YW
- Kapou’e repels a large elvish invasion.

858 YW
- The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces under the leadership of Kapou’e. Son of the Black Eye ends.

Note: Kapou’e is about 48 years old at this point. I guess if Kapou’e had children, they had to be born while SotBE or even before.

866 YW
- at the age of 56 Kapou’e decided to leave the leadership to his son and went into the wilderness to die an honorable death.

Note: Since there it was a peaceful time, Kapou’e son did not really had a chance to proof himself as a strong and rightful leader. Also, due to less fights where orcs were involved, the population should have increased extremely. That might lead to a state of depression within orcish territory and peace could fall apart.


Would that fit?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Vyncyn » June 16th, 2017, 4:39 pm

This doesn't really matter for the timeline, but I think orcs would prefer a strong heir rather than the firstborn. So if Kapou'e is the strongest son (or at least the strongest of his litter) he could still be "the" son.

If orcs have more culture, maybe the reason why Kapou'e was born so late was because Karun had his "true" wife only later in life. Maybe he had some kids with his concubines beforehand, but he had only married (or whatever the orc equivalent is) later in life, after he already conquered his foes. Maybe it was part of an alliance that his heir should be the strongest son he has with that "true" wife (a daughter of another tribe leader he wanted to ally with).
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 16th, 2017, 5:19 pm

Vyncyn wrote:This doesn't really matter for the timeline, but I think orcs would prefer a strong heir rather than the firstborn. So if Kapou'e is the strongest son (or at least the strongest of his litter) he could still be "the" son.

We also talked about weather he is just the strongest who is still alive. Any older brother could actually be dead by 842 YW when they all have to be born before 816 YW.
Vyncyn wrote:If orcs have more culture, maybe the reason why Kapou'e was born so late was because Karun had his "true" wife only later in life. Maybe he had some kids with his concubines beforehand, but he had only married (or whatever the orc equivalent is) later in life, after he already conquered his foes. Maybe it was part of an alliance that his heir should be the strongest son he has with that "true" wife (a daughter of another tribe leader he wanted to ally with).

I don't think orcs need a equivalent to a marriage. They just look for a partner. And they found one, they stay with each other, or not. Marriage is strongly inspired by religion. Orcs might be somewhat spiritual, but I doubt they believe in god like the humans do. Or is there any lore I don't know of in that matter?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Vyncyn » June 16th, 2017, 5:44 pm

Bitron wrote:I don't think orcs need a equivalent to a marriage.

Of course no marriage marriage, but I was talking about a more politcial partnership. We don't know if orcs are monogamous or if they have multiple parters. So maybe he had multiple wifes, but one with who he could have legitimate children. Though this is propably reading too much into orcish culture.
Maybe lineage doesn't really matter for orcs at all. It just happens to be that the strongest leaders usually have also strongest children and therefore sons of chieftains have the highest chance of proving their worth. So it's pure happenstance that Kapou'e is not only a good leader, but also the son of Karun.

Bitron wrote:Or is there any lore I don't know of in that matter?

Not that I know of.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby pyndragon » June 17th, 2017, 5:27 am

We know that orcs have a tribal culture, so it's quite likely that a powerful ruler such as Karun would have had several wives. But unlike a Middle Eastern tribal society, where birth order is of primary importance, orcish society, with its focus on individual strength, is more likely to honor whoever is able to grab control.

What we do know is that orcs are born in litters, with a couple potentially becoming full-blooded orcs and the rest being goblins or demiorcs. This makes me suppose that a female orc will give birth at most a few times, with mortality rates high. I also imagine the ratio of orcs to goblins decreasing each successive gestation.

Anyways, on to timeline stuff.

Projected relative timeline:
  • 0 — Birth of Karun
  • 17 — Upset with the weakness of his father's dwindling family group, Karun plots a successful coup and begins strengthening his fledgling clan.
  • 19 — Seeking any advantage possible, Karun begins migrating his clan south-east towards better hunting and fertile soil.
  • 25 — A border dispute between Karun and a human enclave aligned with the Northern Alliance leaves several men and orcs dead and begins a feud that will grow into a fifteen-year war.
  • 26 — Karun successfully assimilates a neighboring clan with promises of blood and threats of destruction. He begins to dream of greater things.
  • 29 — While purging his growing territory of an encroaching necromancer, Karun survives an icy blast to his left eye. While he slowly recovers his vision, the blackened skin around the eye never heals.
  • 30 — Kapou'e is born.
  • 31 — The legend of Black-Eye Karun grows as it circulates among the other tribes.
  • 35 — Karun brings the tribes beyond the Mountains of Haag under his banner, cementing his control over the northern and eastern tribes by forming the Great Council at Barag Gór.
  • 35 — The Northern Alliance, concerned about the hostile warlord rising up before its eyes, determines to strike while Karun's back is turned. The Lord Protector Thadren leads a massive army to the north-east to attack Karun's lands in his absence.
  • 35 — Karun is able to convince his new Council to summon the Great Horde, and hastily brings his forces across the Mountains of Haag to meet the Northern Alliance at the River Oumph. The ensuing battle's stalemate is broken as the Black-Eye breaks through with his personal troops and kills Thadren, sending the Northern Alliance reeling back southwards.
  • 36 — Karun seizes the opportunity to recruit the remaining tribes aligned with the Northern Alliance north of the River Bork, binding the entirety of the northern tribes under one banner for the first time since Kalenz and Landar assassinated Great Chief Brubar in the days of Haldric I.
  • 36 — In the wake of Thadren's death, the balance of power in Northern Alliance swings back to more war-averse factions. Rahul I is appointed Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance with a mandate to bring the war with Karun to an end.
  • 40 — Karun and Rahul I come to terms of peace officially ceding almost all lands occupied by the Black-Eye's tribes, accompanied by an invitation for Karun to join the Northern Alliance's Council of Lord Companions. The pact is hailed as a lasting peace for the North, but Karun and his guard are ambushed while traveling to Dwarven Doors to meet Rahul I and slain to the last man.
  • 41 — Frustrated with the fallout of Karun's supposed assassination, Rahul I resigns, and Howgarth III takes his place as Lord Protector. The uneasy peace holds, despite the departure of both signatories, as the orcs return to their usual in-fighting, fracturing the united tribes into smaller clans.
  • 41 — Still a young welp, Kapou'e watches from the background as his older brothers wrestle for control of Karun's original clan.
  • 45 — As Kapou'e comes of age, he also comes under more scrutiny from his still-warring brothers. He begins preparing to defend himself.
  • 47 — Drawing together a small nucleus of followers, Kapou'e is able to bait his remaining brothers into battle with each other, arriving at the last moment to claim both the victory and control of the entire clan.
  • 53 — A three-year drought begins in the east.
  • 54 — Tension arises as a growing Barren Plains area forces orcish tribes in the area southwards and poor crops drive human settlers northwards. Kapou'e cements his control over Melmog by repelling attempts by other clans to claim land north of the River Oumph.
  • 55 —Fifteen years of peace between humans and orcs come to a halt as skirmishes erupt along the Farzi river border and in the Greenwood. The last orcish tribes still aligned with the Northern Alliance secede.
  • 56 — Earl Lanbec'h sends forces under command of his son-in-law, Baron Alber, northwards to deal with the orcish menace. After crushing scattered resistance north of the River Farzi, Alber collides with Kapou'e's minor clan south of Melmog as Son of the Black Eye begins.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 17th, 2017, 9:03 am

So, given that SotBE still takes place in 842, that would be the new timeline:

Timeline 786 - 770 YW
786 YW
  • Karun is born

803-826 YW: Legacy of Black-Eye Karun
After decades of struggle, Black-Eye Karun becomes the first warlord since the assassination of Great Chief Brurbar in 20 YW to unite all the different squabbling orcish tribes under his banner. Among his many accomplishments as a Sovereign, his most famous is the creation of the Great Council.
Karun was a far-sighted individual and he knew that after his death the orcish tribes would once again turn to fighting among themselves, with little he could do to prevent that and consequent peril from the Wesnothians and elves.
Consequently, Karun selected from among all the different tribes six of the most sober and wisest orcs and thus created the Great Council. It was the Great Council's job to stay aloof from any tribal or territorial squabbling amongst the orcs, but yet always remain there to give advice to whomever came to seek it. In order to preserve the orcish race in the event of an emergency, he invested in them the power to call up The Great Horde. It was established that every orc, no matter what tribe he came from, must obey the summons of The Great Horde and follow wholeheartedly the leader that the Great Council put at the head of The Great Horde.

803 YW
  • Upset with the weakness of his father's dwindling family group, Karun plots a successful coup and begins strengthening his fledgling clan.

805 YW
  • Seeking any advantage possible, Karun begins migrating his clan south-east towards better hunting and fertile soil.

811 YW
  • A border dispute between Karun and a human enclave aligned with the Northern Alliance leaves several men and orcs dead and begins a feud that will grow into a fifteen-year war.

812 YW
  • Karun successfully assimilates a neighboring clan with promises of blood and threats of destruction. He begins to dream of greater things.

815 YW
  • While purging his growing territory of an encroaching necromancer, Karun survives an icy blast to his left eye. While he slowly recovers his vision, the blackened skin around the eye never heals.

816 YW
  • Kapou'e is born.

817 YW
  • The legend of Black-Eye Karun grows as it circulates among the other tribes.

821 YW
  • Karun brings the tribes beyond the Mountains of Haag under his banner, cementing his control over the northern and eastern tribes by forming the Great Council at Barag Gór.
  • The Northern Alliance, concerned about the hostile warlord rising up before its eyes, determines to strike while Karun's back is turned. The Lord Protector Thadren leads a massive army to the north-east to attack Karun's lands in his absence.
  • Karun is able to convince his new Council to summon the Great Horde, and hastily brings his forces across the Mountains of Haag to meet the Northern Alliance at the River Oumph. The ensuing battle's stalemate is broken as the Black-Eye breaks through with his personal troops and kills Thadren, sending the Northern Alliance reeling back southwards.

822 YW
  • Karun seizes the opportunity to recruit the remaining tribes aligned with the Northern Alliance north of the River Bork, binding the entirety of the northern tribes under one banner for the first time since Kalenz and Landar assassinated Great Chief Brubar in the days of Haldric I.
  • In the wake of Thadren's death, the balance of power in Northern Alliance swings back to more war-averse factions. Rahul I is appointed Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance with a mandate to bring the war with Karun to an end.

826 YW
  • Karun and Rahul I come to terms of peace officially ceding almost all lands occupied by the Black-Eye's tribes, accompanied by an invitation for Karun to join the Northern Alliance's Council of Lord Companions. The pact is hailed as a lasting peace for the North, but Karun and his guard are ambushed while traveling to Dwarven Doors to meet Rahul I and slain to the last man.

Note: Karun dies at the age of 40.

827 YW
  • Frustrated with the fallout of Karun's supposed assassination, Rahul I resigns, and Howgarth III takes his place as Lord Protector. The uneasy peace holds, despite the departure of both signatories, as the orcs return to their usual in-fighting, fracturing the united tribes into smaller clans.
  • Still a young welp, Kapou'e watches from the background as his older brothers wrestle for control of Karun's original clan.

831 YW
  • As Kapou'e comes of age, he also comes under more scrutiny from his still-warring brothers. He begins preparing to defend himself.

Note: Kapou’e is about 15 years old at this point.

833 YW
  • Drawing together a small nucleus of followers, Kapou'e is able to bait his remaining brothers into battle with each other, arriving at the last moment to claim both the victory and control of the entire clan.

839 YW
  • A three-year drought begins in the east.

840 YW
  • Tension arises as a growing Barren Plains area forces orcish tribes in the area southwards and poor crops drive human settlers northwards. Kapou'e cements his control over Melmog by repelling attempts by other clans to claim land north of the River Oumph.

841 YW
  • Fifteen years of peace between humans and orcs come to a halt as skirmishes erupt along the Farzi river border and in the Greenwood. The last orcish tribes still aligned with the Northern Alliance secede.

842 YW
  • Famine in the Northlands. Famine led humans to colonize some orcish lands and push orcs into desolated hill country. The few orcish tribes who had remained part of the Alliance, feeling the pressure, either left Alliance territory or revolted and were destroyed.
  • Retaliating, the orcs systematically slaughtered human colonies and villages on their lands. Then, Earl Lanbec'h — the most powerful human warlord of the North — determined to abolish the orcish menace raised an army and conferred leadership of it to his son-in-law Baron Alber.
  • In response, the Great Council set up by the Black Eye Karun calls upon The Great Horde and bestows leadership of it upon Kapou’e
  • Earl Lanbec'h sends forces under command of his son-in-law, Baron Alber, northwards to deal with the orcish menace. After crushing scattered resistance north of the River Farzi, Alber collides with Kapou'e's minor clan south of Melmog as Son of the Black Eye begins.

Note: Kapou’e is about 26 years old at this point.

843 YW
  • Half of the Great Council is treacherously slain by the allied human forces and orcish unity disintegrates. Faced with the extermination of all the orcs on the Great Continent, Kapou’e forcibly asserts his control over the orcish territories and defeats the enemy forces. The Northern Alliance arrives on the scene in time for the final battle and helps Kapou’e defeat the forces of the northern earldoms, who had broken the treaty. Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.

852 YW
  • Kapou’e repels a large elvish invasion.

858 YW
  • The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces under the leadership of Kapou’e. Son of the Black Eye ends.

Note: Kapou’e is about 42 years old at this point.

870 YW
  • At the age of 54, Kapou’e decided to die an honorable death in the wilderness.


Now, the question is, what happens when Kapou'e dies?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby zookeeper » June 17th, 2017, 9:18 am

Bitron wrote:So, given that SotBE still takes place in 842, that would be the new timeline:

Timeline 786 - 770 YW
786 YW

Karun's and Kapou'e's ages seem good there, yes.
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby Bitron » June 17th, 2017, 10:41 am

Due to the latest conversation, I will split the Timeline from above into "Timeline" and "Ideas/Additions"

Here it goes.

Timeline 786 - 858 YW
786 YW
  • Karun is born

803-826 YW: Legacy of Black-Eye Karun
After decades of struggle, Black-Eye Karun becomes the first warlord since the assassination of Great Chief Brurbar in 20 YW to unite all the different squabbling orcish tribes under his banner. Among his many accomplishments as a Sovereign, his most famous is the creation of the Great Council.
Karun was a far-sighted individual and he knew that after his death the orcish tribes would once again turn to fighting among themselves, with little he could do to prevent that and consequent peril from the Wesnothians and elves.
Consequently, Karun selected from among all the different tribes six of the most sober and wisest orcs and thus created the Great Council. It was the Great Council's job to stay aloof from any tribal or territorial squabbling amongst the orcs, but yet always remain there to give advice to whomever came to seek it. In order to preserve the orcish race in the event of an emergency, he invested in them the power to call up The Great Horde. It was established that every orc, no matter what tribe he came from, must obey the summons of The Great Horde and follow wholeheartedly the leader that the Great Council put at the head of The Great Horde.

811 YW
  • A border dispute between Karun and a human enclave aligned with the Northern Alliance leaves several men and orcs dead and begins a feud that will grow into a fifteen-year war.

812 YW
  • Rahul I becomes Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance

816 YW
  • Kapou'e is born.

826 YW
  • Rahul I (Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance) and Black Eye Karun sign a peace treaty ending a 15 year war between the humans and the orcs. Soon after this Karun, is ambushed and killed in mysterious circumstances.

Note: Karun dies at the age of 40. The (Introductory) Story of Son of the Black Eye would need to be changed a little, since it would be the 14th year of Rahul I as Lord Protector, not the 4th.

829 YW
  • Frustrated with the fallout of Karun's supposed assassination, Rahul I resigns, and Howgarth III takes his place as Lord Protector.

842 YW
  • Famine in the Northlands. Famine led humans to colonize some orcish lands and push orcs into desolated hill country. The few orcish tribes who had remained part of the Alliance, feeling the pressure, either left Alliance territory or revolted and were destroyed.
  • Retaliating, the orcs systematically slaughtered human colonies and villages on their lands. Then, Earl Lanbec'h — the most powerful human warlord of the North — determined to abolish the orcish menace raised an army and conferred leadership of it to his son-in-law Baron Alber.
  • In response, the Great Council set up by the Black Eye Karun calls upon The Great Horde and bestows leadership of it upon Kapou’e; Son of the Black Eye begins.

Note: Kapou’e is about 26 years old at this point.

843 YW
  • Half of the Great Council is treacherously slain by the allied human forces and orcish unity disintegrates. Faced with the extermination of all the orcs on the Great Continent, Kapou’e forcibly asserts his control over the orcish territories and defeats the enemy forces. The Northern Alliance arrives on the scene in time for the final battle and helps Kapou’e defeat the forces of the northern earldoms, who had broken the treaty. Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.

852 YW
  • Kapou’e repels a large elvish invasion.

858 YW
  • The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces under the leadership of Kapou’e. Son of the Black Eye ends.

Note: Kapou’e is about 42 years old at this point.


Ideas/Additions
803 YW
  • Upset with the weakness of his father's dwindling family group, Karun plots a successful coup and begins strengthening his fledgling clan.

805 YW
  • Seeking any advantage possible, Karun begins migrating his clan south-east towards better hunting and fertile soil.

812 YW
  • Karun successfully assimilates a neighboring clan with promises of blood and threats of destruction. He begins to dream of greater things.

815 YW
  • While purging his growing territory of an encroaching necromancer, Karun survives an icy blast to his left eye. While he slowly recovers his vision, the blackened skin around the eye never heals.

817 YW
  • The legend of Black-Eye Karun grows as it circulates among the other tribes.

821 YW
  • Karun brings the tribes beyond the Mountains of Haag under his banner, cementing his control over the northern and eastern tribes by forming the Great Council at Barag Gór.
  • The Northern Alliance, concerned about the hostile warlord rising up before its eyes, determines to strike while Karun's back is turned. The Lord Protector Thadren leads a massive army to the north-east to attack Karun's lands in his absence.
  • Karun is able to convince his new Council to summon the Great Horde, and hastily brings his forces across the Mountains of Haag to meet the Northern Alliance at the River Oumph. The ensuing battle's stalemate is broken as the Black-Eye breaks through with his personal troops and kills Thadren, sending the Northern Alliance reeling back southwards.

822 YW
  • Karun seizes the opportunity to recruit the remaining tribes aligned with the Northern Alliance north of the River Bork, binding the entirety of the northern tribes under one banner for the first time since Kalenz and Landar assassinated Great Chief Brubar in the days of Haldric I.
  • In the wake of Thadren's death, the balance of power in Northern Alliance swings back to more war-averse factions. Rahul I is appointed Lord Protector of the Northern Alliance with a mandate to bring the war with Karun to an end.

826 YW
  • Karun and Rahul I come to terms of peace officially ceding almost all lands occupied by the Black-Eye's tribes, accompanied by an invitation for Karun to join the Northern Alliance's Council of Lord Companions. The pact is hailed as a lasting peace for the North, but Karun and his guard are ambushed while traveling to Dwarven Doors to meet Rahul I and slain to the last man.

827 YW
  • Still a young welp, Kapou'e watches from the background as his older brothers wrestle for control of Karun's original clan.

829
  • Frustrated with the fallout of Karun's supposed assassination, Rahul I resigns, and Howgarth III takes his place as Lord Protector. The uneasy peace holds, despite the departure of both signatories, as the orcs return to their usual in-fighting, fracturing the united tribes into smaller clans.

831 YW
  • As Kapou'e comes of age, he also comes under more scrutiny from his still-warring brothers. He begins preparing to defend himself.

Note: Kapou’e is about 15 years old at this point.

833 YW
  • Drawing together a small nucleus of followers, Kapou'e is able to bait his remaining brothers into battle with each other, arriving at the last moment to claim both the victory and control of the entire clan.

839 YW
  • A three-year drought begins in the east.

840 YW
  • Tension arises as a growing Barren Plains area forces orcish tribes in the area southwards and poor crops drive human settlers northwards. Kapou'e cements his control over Melmog by repelling attempts by other clans to claim land north of the River Oumph.

841 YW
  • Fifteen years of peace between humans and orcs come to a halt as skirmishes erupt along the Farzi river border and in the Greenwood. The last orcish tribes still aligned with the Northern Alliance secede.

842 YW
  • Earl Lanbec'h sends forces under command of his son-in-law, Baron Alber, northwards to deal with the orcish menace. After crushing scattered resistance north of the River Farzi, Alber collides with Kapou'e's minor clan south of Melmog as Son of the Black Eye begins.

867 YW
  • At the age of 51, Kapou’e decided to die an honorable death in the wilderness.


Any thoughts?
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Re: Age of Karun and Kapou'e

Postby skeptical_troll » June 17th, 2017, 12:14 pm

Some considerations about way young orcs fight to gain the status of 'heir' (I know these are details, but I think it's nice to elaborate more on the orcish society):

first, if the criterion is not age but bravery and strength (I actually like this idea very much), then I'd also think that being a son of the previous chief should be irrelevant. However, it is likely that chiefs and generals have the strongest genes, or have the possibility to choose better and more partners than common orcs, so lineage does matter but only indirectly. Alternatively, being 'son' of the chief is just a honorific title given to whomever is designated as the successor, it doesn't have the real biological meaning. This also makes sense if they litter in great numbers as the wiki says: sometimes they may just lost track of who is son of who!

Second: although barbaric, orcs still live in an ancient and long-lasting society, which is likely to set some rules on how the fight for succession works. Letting all the aspirants fight each other how and when they like would break order and discipline apart, making them very vulnerable to external enemies. What you suggest for Kapou'e, i.e. him waiting for the elder brothers to weaken each other and then joining at the last minute to win the fight, doesn't sound a great show of honor and courage, the quality orcs seek in a chief. I think that even if unregulated fight was probably the way in earliest orcish tribes, they must have restrained it in some ritual form in the centuries. Maybe the heir can be formally challenged in a duel, or there could be middle-age-like tournaments. Alternatively, aspirants may have to sustain specific trials, like fighting and killing some monster, or being sent into elvish territory with few followers with the goal of chopping off more elvish heads than what the standing heir had done before. Or anything of the kind..
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