Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

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Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby The Great Rings » April 23rd, 2017, 7:15 pm

Yes, another one of those threads. :P

It was prompted by Sapient's suggestion in my last thread:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=45239

So, I've been going over HttT (version 1.12.6), specifically the story/dialog, and I had some thoughts on how they could be improved, but thought I should get feedback to make sure I'm not off-base.

I don't know who's currently handling coding/updating of HttT, but I'd be particularly interested in their thoughts, for obvious reasons.

So, to start with:

Prologue (quoted campaign text in bold):

"Eldred was a brave and courageous warrior..."

This is a fairly minor point, but "brave and courageous" seems redundant. Recommend changing it to something like "skilled and courageous". Unless, of course, the repetition is a deliberate rhetorical technique.

"In the heat of battle, Eldred's men turned on the king. And so, Garard was slain in battle that day..."

"In the heat of battle" would seem to possibly imply a spur-of-the-moment decision, rather than a pre-meditated plot. Is that deliberate?

Also, while its again a fairly minor thing, the two uses of the word "battle", so close together, feels, to me, awkward and repetitive. Perhaps substitute a synonym for one of them?

You could fix both these issues (presuming that both are regarded as a problem) with one stroke- something along the lines of: "At a critical moment, Eldred's men turned on the king. And so, Garard was slain in battle that day..."

Or, to address just the second issue as simply as possible, just cut the second use of "in battle".

Also, not so much a text issue, but in the picture where Eldred kneels to Asheville, it definitely creates the impression that is is subordinate to her, despite the text referencing his "rule". Who exactly is calling the shots, at this point?

I suppose some ambiguity could be deliberate, particularly given that this prologue is later revealed to be blatantly deceptive, but it seems to be more a case of being unclear here, than one of deliberate misdirection.

Thoughts on the first and second scenarios to come...
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Re: Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby James_The_Invisible » April 23rd, 2017, 8:24 pm

"brave and courageous" seems redundant

I second this, these words are too close in meaning but it may serve some purpose. And I am not actually sure if he was exceptionally brave :lol: .
"In the heat of battle" would seem to possibly imply a spur-of-the-moment decision, rather than a pre-meditated plot. Is that deliberate?

It was Asheviere's plan all along to have her husband die in war so she could take over. She would have her way even if Eldred was alive because he was easy to manipulate to convince.
it definitely creates the impression that is is subordinate to her

I believe that he was (kinda). He was going to be the king but she would rule from the shadows. That is if he was not killed by Delfador (which maybe was a part of her plan, I am not sure here).
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Re: Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby The Great Rings » April 23rd, 2017, 8:57 pm

That makes sense. Its just that the wording comes off as somewhat unclear/ambiguous, and I'm wondering if that was deliberate.
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Re: Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby zookeeper » April 23rd, 2017, 11:12 pm

The Great Rings wrote:I don't know who's currently handling coding/updating of HttT, but I'd be particularly interested in their thoughts, for obvious reasons.

That'd be me.

The Great Rings wrote:"Eldred was a brave and courageous warrior..."

This is a fairly minor point, but "brave and courageous" seems redundant. Recommend changing it to something like "skilled and courageous". Unless, of course, the repetition is a deliberate rhetorical technique.

Sure, "skilled and courageous" sounds more fitting there.

The Great Rings wrote:"In the heat of battle, Eldred's men turned on the king. And so, Garard was slain in battle that day..."

"In the heat of battle" would seem to possibly imply a spur-of-the-moment decision, rather than a pre-meditated plot. Is that deliberate?

I've always rather read that as implying that Eldred was just waiting for the right moment to execute his plan during the battle. To an observer, it'd simply look like they suddenly turned on the king in the heat of battle. I don't really think that "At a critical moment" would be more unambiguous, or that the subtle pinch of ambiguity is a bad thing here in the first place.

The Great Rings wrote:Also, while its again a fairly minor thing, the two uses of the word "battle", so close together, feels, to me, awkward and repetitive. Perhaps substitute a synonym for one of them?

Sure, why not.

The Great Rings wrote:Also, not so much a text issue, but in the picture where Eldred kneels to Asheville, it definitely creates the impression that is is subordinate to her, despite the text referencing his "rule". Who exactly is calling the shots, at this point?

I suppose some ambiguity could be deliberate, particularly given that this prologue is later revealed to be blatantly deceptive, but it seems to be more a case of being unclear here, than one of deliberate misdirection.

I think it's fair to say that Asheviere is the brains of the operation, and Eldred would have ended up being a bit of a puppet. Even if Eldred was/became king, he'd still follow his mother's advice and probably need her status and skills to keep things together. He's young and probably not terribly bright, and probably been under Asheviere's influence his whole life and maybe sees her as his only real ally.

If they had actually succeeded, then probably Asheviere would have continued to see Eldred as his little perfect darling whose rule and life she wants to manage as much as possible because moms know best, and Eldred would have seen himself as a great warrior king who luckily has a really wise mom who takes care of some of the boring politicking, planning and scheming so he can focus on simply being awesome.
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Re: Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby The Great Rings » April 23rd, 2017, 11:31 pm

zookeeper wrote:That'd be me.


Good to know. :)

Sure, "skilled and courageous" sounds more fitting there.


Right then.

I've always rather read that as implying that Eldred was just waiting for the right moment to execute his plan during the battle. To an observer, it'd simply look like they suddenly turned on the king in the heat of battle. I don't really think that "At a critical moment" would be more unambiguous, or that the subtle pinch of ambiguity is a bad thing here in the first place.


Yeah, I wasn't sure myself weather it was a significant problem, but figured it was worth discussing.

Sure, why not.


Good to know.

I think it's fair to say that Asheviere is the brains of the operation, and Eldred would have ended up being a bit of a puppet. Even if Eldred was/became king, he'd still follow his mother's advice and probably need her status and skills to keep things together. He's young and probably not terribly bright, and probably been under Asheviere's influence his whole life and maybe sees her as his only real ally.

If they had actually succeeded, then probably Asheviere would have continued to see Eldred as his little perfect darling whose rule and life she wants to manage as much as possible because moms know best, and Eldred would have seen himself as a great warrior king who luckily has a really wise mom who takes care of some of the boring politicking, planning and scheming so he can focus on simply being awesome.


So like Joffery and Cersei from Game of Thrones, if Joffery was actually good at something? ;)

Edit: Regarding possible synonyms for "battle":

"Garard was slain in combat that day..."

"Garard was slain in the chaos that day..."

"Garard was slain that day..." (just cut the second "in battle").

I can come up with some others if you like. And if anyone else wants to throw some in, be my guest.

First scenario revisions up shortly.
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Re: Heir to the Throne plot/dialog discussion.

Postby zookeeper » April 24th, 2017, 6:17 am

The Great Rings wrote:So like Joffery and Cersei from Game of Thrones, if Joffery was actually good at something? ;)

A bit along those lines, sure.

The Great Rings wrote:Edit: Regarding possible synonyms for "battle":

"Garard was slain in combat that day..."

"Garard was slain in the chaos that day..."

"Garard was slain that day..." (just cut the second "in battle").

I can come up with some others if you like. And if anyone else wants to throw some in, be my guest.

First scenario revisions up shortly.

I'd throw in "on the field".
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