Some of my (back)story ideas

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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby ForestDragon » December 10th, 2016, 7:07 am

The_Gnat wrote:Personally my favorite of the undead are the ghosts. 8) It is interesting to consider why some undead are resurrected only bones and nothing else and some are resurrected only spirit and no bones. This also makes me wonder, if a necromancer has the choice to resurrect a skeleton or ghost why would he not always choose ghost?

well, a necromancer can resurrect both bones and soul of a dead being as separate undead, so it's not a kind of choice where you can only choose one option, but both, but a at a higher cost.
The_Gnat wrote:And also why does he never resurrect himself as a ghost but always as a skeletal lich?

well, a lich has his bones and soul artificially fused together, making him retain his mind/soul, while also having him retain some of his body too. such practice can be used on undead too, but it's much more power-consuming, so the liches only use it to create undead commanders (like Death Knights, for example)
The_Gnat wrote: As for backstory once again it brings up the question how does a necromancer decide what to resurrect?

Ghouls are pretty nasty creatures that i see as similar to the flesh golem in UtBS: Likely to turn on their masters.

well, if raising a skeleton, it mostly depends on what job he had in his previous life.
The_Gnat wrote:Also an interesting question is why are mainly humans necromancers? It figures that orcs aren't because they can't cast magic, similarly saurian magic is weak and not sufficient for real necromancy and raising dead people. But considering all the races originate from each other why is in the history of wesnoth only 1 dwarf, and 0 elves ever necromancers, while meanwhile there are human dark sorcerers all over the world?

that is what mainline campaigns would tell you. [not_serious]besides, most of the mainline campaigns are wesnothian propaganda :mrgreen:[/not_serious]

anyways on a more serious note, you get what i mean. Not every bit of information can come from mainline. in a UMC campaign i seen a saurian lich for example. and maybe there are other non-human necromancers too, but we don't get to see them in any campaigns.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby Eagle_11 » December 10th, 2016, 3:01 pm

I recall seeing an Drake Necromancer sprite in a campaign somewhere.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby Vyncyn » December 10th, 2016, 6:20 pm

elves normally live longer than humans, so they don't feel the need to extend their life as lich. Maybe the dark magic also clashes with their feary nature
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby James_The_Invisible » December 10th, 2016, 10:28 pm

The_Gnat wrote:orcs ... can't cast magic

That is not entirely true. Mainline campaign Son of the Black-eye features orcish shamans.
0 elves ever necromancers

Certain user-made campaign has an elvish sorceress who at same points became a necromancer/lich as one of the main characters.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby Paulomat4 » December 11th, 2016, 12:19 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the south guard Feature an elvish lich?
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby ForestDragon » December 11th, 2016, 1:55 pm

Paulomat4 wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the south guard Feature an elvish lich?

it does, indeed
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby The_Gnat » December 16th, 2016, 11:43 pm

Sorry about that overly long delay,

Vyncyn, Eagle 11, Paulomat4, and James the Invincible are infact correct. I apologize for my incorrect statement earlier, after a little searching here is what i found:

Saurian lich from aSoF:

Image

Dwarvish lich from tHoT:

Image

Orcish Shaman from son of black eye:

Image

Also in UMC i found the orcish witch doctor:

elder-witchdoctor.png
elder-witchdoctor.png (3.66 KiB) Viewed 1312 times


Also though their is unfortunately no unique sprite the South Guard does contain a Elvish Lich. Mal M'brin who was once an Elvish Sorcerer.

I wasn't able to find a drake lich but their certainly are drake sorcerers and magus's in a Flight to freedom!

Image

Khalifate also have some pretty cool magical units that can be found in many UMC campaigns and The Golden Age, like this one:

Image

There is also the mainline troll shaman. Though unexpected it does seem that trolls cast magic also:

Image


Overall i believe the assessment is that every race has creatures who strive to master sorcery and magic in some way. It seems each race takes a different approach to sorcery but in every race sorcerers can be found.

From this i think we can conclude that also from every race necromancers can be found. Because where ever there is magic their surely would be dark magic. Eternal life and massive power are tempting to many and it seems that often there are those who fall into these temptations.

I think the reason that elves are less often necromancers is that they are better able to combat the temptations and they are satisfied with their already longer life and powerful magic capabilities.

As for other races (besides humans) i think less are necromancers because there aren't as many sorcerers. Maybe 1 out of 100 join the dark side ( :mrgreen: ) so if there are only 50 troll shamans the likely hood of finding a troll necromancer is pretty low because there probably is only 1 or maybe even none.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby ForestDragon » December 17th, 2016, 9:10 am

The_Gnat wrote:Overall i believe the assessment is that every race has creatures who strive to master sorcery and magic in some way. It seems each race takes a different approach to sorcery but in every race sorcerers can be found.

quite true
The_Gnat wrote:From this i think we can conclude that also from every race necromancers can be found. Because where ever there is magic their surely would be dark magic. Eternal life and massive power are tempting to many and it seems that often there are those who fall into these temptations.

I think the reason that elves are less often necromancers is that they are better able to combat the temptations and they are satisfied with their already longer life and powerful magic capabilities.

yes, and besides, a huge part of necromancers' reasons of turning to the dark side involve living forever. And yes, since elves have much longer lifespans, so they would only be tempted when they get reeeally old.
The_Gnat wrote:As for other races (besides humans) i think less are necromancers because there aren't as many sorcerers. Maybe 1 out of 100 join the dark side ( :mrgreen: ) so if there are only 50 troll shamans the likely hood of finding a troll necromancer is pretty low because there probably is only 1 or maybe even none.

indeed
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby The_Gnat » December 19th, 2016, 7:36 pm

Another interesting backstory that i was thinking about was religion and gods.

The humans have many mages and mages being magi and living in temples/monasteries seem to imply that their are followers of some religion. The religion magi believe in is never particularly started but it seems they have a different religion from other races.

Khalifate in contrast seem to have objects as gods. I have seen Air Gods, Earth Gods and other such "god" units. This is not necessarily proof that their gods are infact elements however it seems that their religion would be related to their environment and the khalifate priests and magi seem to not have temples so they obviously feel their gods do not need them to build a place for it to stay.

Elves seem like the type to not believe in any gods. But where do they get their magic abilities from if it is not from some outside power. Maybe they do believe in a god but are merely to focused and closed and do not tell anyone about it.

Dwarves are interesting they have lots of runes and lore and that all would link to some higher power however they don't ever talk about any religion and they don't seem to devote any time to a god, so maybe they don't believe in gods.

Drakes, their god most likely is the god of fire, because they have fire spirits in them. What do you think?

Orcs, goblins, trolls, and other lesser intelligent species like saurians probably just worship whatever they see (trees, mountains, rivers, sun, moon) if they have any religion at all.

Naga and merman: I remember some references (by the merman) to a god in Dead Water. And it would seem like their god and the naga's god would probably be the god of the sea.

Undead... Well by definition if you are going to raise a creature from the dead you have to tap into the dark magic. So i would assume that they (at least the necromancers, the rest of the undead probably don't do too much thinking) have a close relationship with some underworld god.

Finally the question arises which of these races gods are real? It seems that all the races have magic powers and that has to come from somewhere, since each race has differn't powers (and we have concluded that most races are related genetically) maybe their religion and god is where their magic comes from?

The only problem that could arise is that if the elves, humans, dwarves or some race has a god who they believe is the Only god then either they are correct and their god is real or everyone who believes in multiple gods (like i imagine the saurians do) is correct.

Thought and comments are appreciated. And if anyone remembers campaigns who mention gods or religion please post! :D
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby James_The_Invisible » December 19th, 2016, 7:58 pm

Humans in mainline campaigns sometime refer to some Lords of Light and a few times to grim gods of darkness. I follow that in my campaign (though gods of darkness are mentioned just 1 time there if I remember correctly). Elves (at least in post Fall world) seem to worship at least Eloh. I have seen some mentions of her in Under the Burning Suns and shadowm's Invasion from the Unknown/After the Storm. I also think that merman are talking about their god/goddess in UtBS.
I also remember discussion about faiths in Wesnoth/Irdya taking place two years ago here.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby ForestDragon » December 19th, 2016, 8:19 pm

The_Gnat wrote:The humans have many mages and mages being magi and living in temples/monasteries seem to imply that their are followers of some religion. The religion magi believe in is never particularly started but it seems they have a different religion from other races.

well, of all human mages, white mages seem to be the most likely ones to have some kind of religion, which probably even resembles real-life ones, like Christianity, ect.
The_Gnat wrote:Khalifate in contrast seem to have objects as gods. I have seen Air Gods, Earth Gods and other such "god" units. This is not necessarily proof that their gods are infact elements however it seems that their religion would be related to their environment and the khalifate priests and magi seem to not have temples so they obviously feel their gods do not need them to build a place for it to stay.

well, these "God" units might just be the name khalifate give them, for most other cultures, they are just powerful nature spirits which have manifested into material form
The_Gnat wrote:Elves seem like the type to not believe in any gods. But where do they get their magic abilities from if it is not from some outside power. Maybe they do believe in a god but are merely to focused and closed and do not tell anyone about it.

i think their religion probably might be along the lines of nature-worshipping (their shaman line strongly hints at this)
The_Gnat wrote:Dwarves are interesting they have lots of runes and lore and that all would link to some higher power however they don't ever talk about any religion and they don't seem to devote any time to a god, so maybe they don't believe in gods.

well, i heard a few times dwarves mentioned 'by the beard of <sorry, i forgot the name, but i think it began with A>!' that means two things: 1.they clearly have a some kind of deity 2.that deity is depicted as being heavily dwarf-like
The_Gnat wrote:Drakes, their god most likely is the god of fire, because they have fire spirits in them. What do you think?

sounds reasonable.
The_Gnat wrote:Orcs, goblins, trolls, and other lesser intelligent species like saurians probably just worship whatever they see (trees, mountains, rivers, sun, moon) if they have any religion at all.

yeah, they could have some kind of tribal-like paganism
The_Gnat wrote:Naga and merman: I remember some references (by the merman) to a god in Dead Water. And it would seem like their god and the naga's god would probably be the god of the sea.

god of the sea, you say? hmmm, i got an idea! maybe there are two gods depicted by both mermen and nagas, one worshipped by merfolk, and one by nagas, according to merfolk/naga legends, these "gods" are rivals, and this way it's somewhat half-explained explained why mermen and nagas fight eachother. And yes, both sides would have fairly different versions of the same legend :eng:
The_Gnat wrote:Undead... Well by definition if you are going to raise a creature from the dead you have to tap into the dark magic. So i would assume that they (at least the necromancers, the rest of the undead probably don't do too much thinking) have a close relationship with some underworld god.

interesting idea, there could be some kind of mage cults, including necromancer ones. It's not quite clear whether it's actually required to worship a some kind of underworld 'god', but hey, at least it's a good/cheap way of getting a bunch of apprentices :D
The_Gnat wrote:Finally the question arises which of these races gods are real? It seems that all the races have magic powers and that has to come from somewhere, since each race has differn't powers (and we have concluded that most races are related genetically) maybe their religion and god is where their magic comes from?

The only problem that could arise is that if the elves, humans, dwarves or some race has a god who they believe is the Only god then either they are correct and their god is real or everyone who believes in multiple gods (like i imagine the saurians do) is correct.

well, it's a fairly interesting question, it actually depends on what exactly is meant by 'god' well, khalifate gods are material objects, so they are both technically real, but not in the way a god would be :mrgreen:
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby Vyncyn » December 20th, 2016, 9:20 am

ForestDragon wrote:well, i heard a few times dwarves mentioned 'by the beard of <sorry, i forgot the name, but i think it began with A>!' that means two things: 1.they clearly have a some kind of deity 2.that deity is depicted as being heavily dwarf-like

It might not be a god, but simply a famous dwarf. We sometimes use the phrase "by merlins beard" but merlin is just a mage.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby Eagle_11 » December 20th, 2016, 1:16 pm

Here my 2c

Dark magic(rather: the craft of Necromancy) may be based on twisting of the fey, based on men's understanding of elvish teachings, perhaps.

Afaik and to be fair, Lords of Light is mentioned at only one campaign, that also has other questionable things such as an half-elf being the protagonist.
At that instance, i think its rather related to that person's imagination, rather than being an fact. After all, that would be an belief.
Inspecially seeing how that campaign plays out like an DnD adventure at some parts, id say its likely the characters therein seem to be rather an fine assortment of the oddballs of Irdya, prone to inventing things on the go or even seeing things completely different than they are.

Spoiler:


Re: Humans
white mages and Paladins of wesnoth seem to be venerating the Light(and through this to an lesser extent: the sun's life-cherishing aspect) in general, rather than serving an god or deity.

Khalifate in contrast seem to have objects as gods. I have seen Air Gods, Earth Gods and other such "god" units.

Im sure those are al-Kamija units in Era of Magic and it's campaign To Lands Unknown, rather than being related to the Khalifate. probably you have played my version of it that has jinns and sorcerors and got confused as such. :p
As for does Khalifate believe into an wesnothian Allah: thats an can of worms im not opening. Seriously, i have no idea whose Khalif it is when there are no Prophets around in wesnoth.

Re: Elves
Elves may have, as beings closely connected to the world of Irdya and it's plane of fey, have an entirely different concept of veneration and worship than humans. It may be even likely that the direction of any possible worship happens the other way around, eg. they would be the ones bestowing gifts to the earth, in return nature would care about them and come to their aide, should the Elves have been tending and caring enough. The idea rephrased: each elf would be an micro-god, due to it's innate power of the Fey residing within. Those who aspire to greater would tend to the earth and it's elements.
They may or not have something regarding the stars in the sky.

Re: Dwarves
<by the hammer of [ancestorname]>, <by the beard of [famousdwarfheroname]>, <by the stone of [memorablekingname]> and such seem to be an commonplace practice among dwarven species across many fantasy literature and even video game universes having any. I think its origins are related to the ways of the old, of bard's storytelling related to nordic, celtic and germanic mythological saga, prose and odes. For the note: some of the mythological stories involve dwarves and gnomes, so its likely got adopted into modern fantasy literature -mostly- as is, seeing many dwarf species are indeed -more or less- modeled after an mixture of their norse mythology appearance and Tolkiens depiction in his works.

Dwarves in general, are depicted having an connection to the stone, warmth of the earth, and those who live above the land under the sky, towards the element of earth and sometimes wood even.

Re: Drakes
In wesnoth, its probably likely that an drake enclave worships the soul of the dragon they can trace back their roots to(if its deceased),
or be even dwelling in close vicinity and are in servitude towards that dragon(if its alive), worshipping it as an living god,
it may even be, if they identify one of the few dragons happen to be still alive and around an offspring of their ancestor and decide to serve it, making him into an minor god in their pantheon of dragons.
In all cases Drakes would feel some sort of connection to Dragons, and Dragons would have some sort of power over the Drakes.
This power could be related to Dragon's draconic nature, fe. being able to mentally dominate any Drake they encounter as the Dragon inherently 'knows' the Drake -but the Drake cannot, as he is not true Dragon-, as Dragon's blood giving them knowledge of each other and the Drake being related to an Dragon's blood, if not now then at an earlier age of Irdya. You can view this similar to how knowing an demons true name would give an mortal power over it when uttered towards him in the material plane.
As an Dragon is the embodyment of perfection, coupled with the fact Dragons could simply enslave any Drake if they rebelled would move the Drakes to get along reality and not question the Dragon, but to obey and accept it's 'guidance'.
Additionally, ancestor worship similar to that in ancient china seems also likely, seeing how drakes put an emphasis on living an proud life. Successful Drake ancestors would get venerated at shrines, such shrines being tended by Diviners and seasonal sacrifices -rather the Drake offering one of his belongings that matter to him than blood sacrifice- being made to. The spirits of dead drakes could get contacted by descendants of that Drake with the help of such Diviners at those shrines, after a period of meditation spent with the diviner.

Re: Orc, Goblin, Troll, Ogre
Its likely that orcs practice some sort of animist shamanism. Seeing how barely intelligent, almost animal species they are would make sense for an Orc to view the attributes of some animals as something to aspire to(an wild boar's strength fe.)
As such its likely their shamans craft charms and trinkets from parts of beasts, with which they can obtain otherwise impossible magical effects.
Trolls.. well the wesnothian Trolls are shown as dumb, or rather pretend to be towards outsiders as they do not care. Prolly are too free to care about spiritualism either. However, i think of them as being related to stone(similar to dwarves) and the element of fire(which i think gives them their regenerative capabilities). Ironically fire is also their vulnerability, as such it may be an fascinating concept to them.
Goblins are failed orcs. what they do worship depends on which dumb got to be shaman and what he deemed worthy of worship. So one tribe can worship and make sacrifices to the lvl3 direwolf they happent to be dwelling in the vicinity of, whereas an tribe of goblin within the horde can find shiny gold coins very spiritual things that must be piled up in front of an idol of the warchief. etc.
Ogres seem likely to worship their cooks. :D

Re: Saurian
Being creatures of the night, theyd prolly venerate the Moon -finding its light to be guiding-, similar to how lawful humans venerate the Sun. They'd also have something for the night-sky and it's stars.

Re: Naga and Merman
Naga and merman: I remember some references (by the merman) to a god in Dead Water. And it would seem like their god and the naga's god would probably be the god of the sea.

Seems an good idea, id say go for it. Additionally can make so that some large creatures in the sea are seen as avatars sent by this god, to aid them.
Probably Nagas got to know it as an vengeful deity, an Lord of Storms, whereas Mermen see it as an Calm Lady. This derived from facts such that Mermen prefer to dwell in shallow bays, whereas the naga prefer cold depths of the ocean, it seems likely the Naga would prefer to strike during the storm, when the sky gets clouded.

If you'd ask my opinion: Im for keeping wesnoth gods-free at all, as because look at whats happening with DnD and wotc in general currently: it has more gods than in Hinduism. Aint nobody got to remembrance and keep track of who is who and does what under which circumstance, so stories are at an point where gods end up doing everything for the protagonist, with him only moving between the points to facilitate the story moving forwards.
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I mean one would invent an deity, then somebody other, then another, and in the end you would get an huge mess that aint nobody got time for it.

Re: Necromancers
Necromancers are self-serviant and narcistical, this does not change after they become Liches even. Id expect them to be entirely godless. Their viewpoint would be to dominate and control, not to serve and venerate.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby James_The_Invisible » December 20th, 2016, 1:45 pm

Eagle_11 wrote:Afaik and to be fair, Lords of Light is mentioned at only one campaign

Well, in the linked thread I named 2 campaigns where they are referred - The Rise of Wesnoth and Northern Rebirth but there may be more.
At that instance, i think its rather related to that person's imagination, rather than being an fact. After all, that would be an belief.

In my point of view, this belief is quite common in Wesnoth and surrounding lands. Actually, it is even older as it arrived there from Green Isle.
an half-elf being the protagonist

I have no idea who are you talking about here :hmm: .
To your spoiler:


But I am not an expert on Wesnoth lore so I may be wrong in anything what I said here.
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Re: Some of my (back)story ideas

Postby ForestDragon » December 20th, 2016, 8:45 pm

you got quite a large amount of valid points, btw, here are a few of my responses, since i feel that i am being too ignorant by replying only to The_Gnat
Eagle_11 wrote:Dark magic(rather: the craft of Necromancy) may be based on twisting of the fey, based on men's understanding of elvish teachings, perhaps.

quite an intriquing idea, maybe necromancy could be a mix of simple dark magic with elvish magic
Eagle_11 wrote:Afaik and to be fair, Lords of Light is mentioned at only one campaign, that also has other questionable things such as an half-elf being the protagonist.
At that instance, i think its rather related to that person's imagination, rather than being an fact. After all, that would be an belief.
Inspecially seeing how that campaign plays out like an DnD adventure at some parts, id say its likely the characters therein seem to be rather an fine assortment of the oddballs of Irdya, prone to inventing things on the go or even seeing things completely different than they are.

valid point
Eagle_11 wrote:
Spoiler:

valid point again
Eagle_11 wrote:white mages and Paladins of wesnoth seem to be venerating the Light(and through this to an lesser extent: the sun's life-cherishing aspect) in general, rather than serving an god or deity.

quite true
Eagle_11 wrote:Im sure those are al-Kamija units in Era of Magic and it's campaign To Lands Unknown, rather than being related to the Khalifate. probably you have played my version of it that has jinns and sorcerors and got confused as such. :p
As for does Khalifate believe into an wesnothian Allah: thats an can of worms im not opening. Seriously, i have no idea whose Khalif it is when there are no Prophets around in wesnoth.

aaand valid point again
Eagle_11 wrote:Re: Elves
Elves may have, as beings closely connected to the world of Irdya and it's plane of fey, have an entirely different concept of veneration and worship than humans. It may be even likely that the direction of any possible worship happens the other way around, eg. they would be the ones bestowing gifts to the earth, in return nature would care about them and come to their aide, should the Elves have been tending and caring enough. The idea rephrased: each elf would be an micro-god, due to it's innate power of the Fey residing within. Those who aspire to greater would tend to the earth and it's elements.
They may or not have something regarding the stars in the sky.

good idea :D btw, such belief would also explain the arrogance we frequently see in elves when they talk to other races
Eagle_11 wrote:Re: Dwarves
<by the hammer of [ancestorname]>, <by the beard of [famousdwarfheroname]>, <by the stone of [memorablekingname]> and such seem to be an commonplace practice among dwarven species across many fantasy literature and even video game universes having any. I think its origins are related to the ways of the old, of bard's storytelling related to nordic, celtic and germanic mythological saga, prose and odes. For the note: some of the mythological stories involve dwarves and gnomes, so its likely got adopted into modern fantasy literature -mostly- as is, seeing many dwarf species are indeed -more or less- modeled after an mixture of their norse mythology appearance and Tolkiens depiction in his works.

Dwarves in general, are depicted having an connection to the stone, warmth of the earth, and those who live above the land under the sky, towards the element of earth and sometimes wood even.

once again N2 valid point
Eagle_11 wrote:Re: Drakes
In wesnoth, its probably likely that an drake enclave worships the soul of the dragon they can trace back their roots to(if its deceased),
or be even dwelling in close vicinity and are in servitude towards that dragon(if its alive), worshipping it as an living god,
it may even be, if they identify one of the few dragons happen to be still alive and around an offspring of their ancestor and decide to serve it, making him into an minor god in their pantheon of dragons.
In all cases Drakes would feel some sort of connection to Dragons, and Dragons would have some sort of power over the Drakes.
This power could be related to Dragon's draconic nature, fe. being able to mentally dominate any Drake they encounter as the Dragon inherently 'knows' the Drake -but the Drake cannot, as he is not true Dragon-, as Dragon's blood giving them knowledge of each other and the Drake being related to an Dragon's blood, if not now then at an earlier age of Irdya. You can view this similar to how knowing an demons true name would give an mortal power over it when uttered towards him in the material plane.
As an Dragon is the embodyment of perfection, coupled with the fact Dragons could simply enslave any Drake if they rebelled would move the Drakes to get along reality and not question the Dragon, but to obey and accept it's 'guidance'.
Additionally, ancestor worship similar to that in ancient china seems also likely, seeing how drakes put an emphasis on living an proud life. Successful Drake ancestors would get venerated at shrines, such shrines being tended by Diviners and seasonal sacrifices -rather the Drake offering one of his belongings that matter to him than blood sacrifice- being made to. The spirits of dead drakes could get contacted by descendants of that Drake with the help of such Diviners at those shrines, after a period of meditation spent with the diviner.

great ideas!
Eagle_11 wrote:Necromancers are self-serviant and narcistical, this does not change after they become Liches even. Id expect them to be entirely godless. Their viewpoint would be to dominate and control, not to serve and venerate.

heh, i'd rather also say they would like being somewhat worshipped themselves
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