Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby Dugi » November 7th, 2016, 4:33 pm

Hi, Gnat,

A problem is that whenever I make a change to the translator, most of the dictionary is changed and I existing texts will become impossible to translate back. It could be frozen at some point, of course. The generator of words is already a part of wesnoth 1.13 (used as the new name generator), it would just need to add some more determinism. Maybe if all changes were frozen afterwards, it could make sense.

It currently picks the translation so that the word is hashed, the hash is the seed sent to the generator to generate a word, if a duplicity happens, the seed is increased by a constant and retried. The problem is that any change to the word generator causes different words to appear with a different hash. Letter to group of letters would generate overly long words, I can't figure out any other way.

It would be totally doable for a campaign to contain blackspeech lines that are replaced by normal language if you have something. The author would just have to add some blackspeech lines along with normal language and have some logic pick which one will be displayed.

I decided not to use umlauts because it would look more German. I don't want to do this to Germans. They have done nothing to deserve it. Deutsch ist ein bisschen schöne Sprache! And if you go to Norway, you'll realise that German is a nice language. And Norwegian does not use umlauts. Turkish is also pretty hard on ears. Swedes are also very proud of their beautiful language. On the other hand, umlauts could help create enough syllables to make a different approach to translating words.
t->ruv
a->vorg
th->razg
at->bur
that->razgbur (razgvorgruv is longer, the shorter possibility is picked)
Common letter groups getting their syllables, making the language systematic and independent of seeds and dictionaries. This could solve a lot of problems if there was enough blackspeech syllables for most groups. Umlauts could help achieve it. Without it, this approach leads to horribly long words.
Interestingly, UTF-8 has also some unusual letters with umlauts, like ẅ, ẗ, ÿ, ḧ or ẍ, not sure who uses it except for some heavy metal bands (like Queensrÿche).

Hruzbryvberz grohbhyv, dvyz brabdruuzruv khruzzybrup! Myzg hyyr blurdurhrdaz zerghurhrruv nuz-thurzgargberz zurdgybbhak brarghguur - u prepose zerz guurzub myzg avr dryg bharabgzergh arzurhr khruzzybrup hraz bru rabvbbhyvakh rumh dryg wesnoth ruhrvybvnaaz!
Dvyz dryrzzerdgzyv y rabvbbyrggroh baazgruuz zybothnyz abg rupguur gruhv hraz gryzzar brabd ryyg zubvrogvarr urhrvybvbugh, urrgdrargrhygh hraz hruzruuzbrryrv varrzybrhygh zuubr muzthurrup?
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby The_Gnat » November 8th, 2016, 5:12 am

Dugi wrote:It would be totally doable for a campaign to contain blackspeech lines that are replaced by normal language if you have something. The author would just have to add some blackspeech lines along with normal language and have some logic pick which one will be displayed.


Yeah that would be cool!

Dugi wrote:I decided not to use umlauts because it would look more German. I don't want to do this to Germans. They have done nothing to deserve it. Deutsch ist ein bisschen schöne Sprache! And if you go to Norway, you'll realise that German is a nice language. And Norwegian does not use umlauts. Turkish is also pretty hard on ears. Swedes are also very proud of their beautiful language.


:lol: yeah thats no problem i just thought to ask

Dugi wrote:Interestingly, UTF-8 has also some unusual letters with umlauts, like ẅ, ẗ, ÿ, ḧ or ẍ, not sure who uses it except for some heavy metal bands (like Queensrÿche).


Yeah it might be good to add some of these

Dugi wrote:Dvyz dryrzzerdgzyv y rabvbbyrggroh baazgruuz zybothnyz abg rupguur gruhv hraz gryzzar brabd ryyg zubvrogvarr urhrvybvbugh, urrgdrargrhygh hraz hruzruuzbrryrv varrzybrhygh zuubr muzthurrup?


Burdryyrvdrub, zerz ohbruth baazdazryyrv dryg zurkrynzyyr bryv ruthdrazzub duvzdrugduvz!
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby Dugi » November 8th, 2016, 10:20 am

I will make an experiment to check how often would it be possible to replace digraphs or trigraphs can be replaced by blackspeech syllables. If enough of them is formed, the created words might be short enough to be more scary than funny. The üm̈läüẗs̈ could help it greatly. At the cost of rendering the pronunciation ambiguous.

This approach could make blackspeech work without the limiting need for a dictionary.

Burdryyrvdrub, zerz ohbruth baazdazryyrv dryg zurkrynzyyr bryv ruthdrazzub duvzdrugduvz!

Kaaz drug berzbughzerd gryzr bgaz ohbr ryyrvhazvuurb rabvbbyrggroh duvzbhakbryv?

On an unrelated topic,
U vohzhuugrarrz zybothnyz drymhmaazmyzg zyyroththur ohbr bru hruzbryvberz rvoz byrgbarg. Rhyghzergh dhramvybvbhyv byrgbarg dvyz drymhruthnyz nyzanrdraz vybv huugrkhruzmyyv, drymhbravruz ryyg uthzerghbrabd huugrdurgnorv hraz arzbyrgruth myzgzambdurg drubzurgroh dvyz zerdbyrgdryrz godrruzthur myyvbhar myrbzerdruz. Dryg kuz brryrvbhakgorz zybothnyz ohbr zuumbhyvzuum ryyg hyyr y maazvuurbkuz hvu vohzvuurbgzyv dvyz ryyg abg brav hrarg ghulrhygh. Hvu zyyrbhyv, myzg rozb hyyr maaz brryrvhydoth rvoz ryyg avr ryyg hyyr ruhrguurbgaz (rumh y brryrvdrargdryrz zybothnyz hyyr maaz norvzamb, dryrzurzbrabd baazzuvdrarg ruhrguurbgaz), dryrzurzbrabd mhuun gryzzu margurzdrymh dryg khruzzybrup grubr nuzdgybzergh dryg drubzurgroh rumh y nazgbarz maaz krynzuvdaz hraz rupguurduvz, ryyg brryrv bru y drubbakhrup brryrvhydoth nazgmaaz'bhak ruprozbmyzg.
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby tr0ll » November 8th, 2016, 5:28 pm

Brabd khruzzybrup rezz dryg naazur rabvbzubkhruz muz SotBE? Zurvybvdrub hrarz rezz maaz avr druubr avr hazbzyvdyz dgybz. 8)
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby Chewan » November 8th, 2016, 7:18 pm

@ tr0ll » Brabd khruzzybrup rezz dryg naazur rabvbzubkhruz muz SotBE? Zurvybvdrub hrarz rezz maaz avr druubr avr hazbzyvdyz dgybz


Bzÿv, nyzzuv uẗhbürdgævrryv uẗh0maaz nyzzuv!
Gorznyz häz durggroh Zörgḧdazrḧÿghmyrb zæhrurzgẅöd, anrhyg'daz müzrozbbaazbrav uẗhbürdgævrryv:
Zörgḧ zubbhak durgürz gorzdürth ydaz vrüthnazg ydaz öhbrnyzzüürd dazdḧråm, gorznyz ärrz zæhrurzgẅöd zörgḧ ånr zambarzmÿÿvnyz rḧÿghbaæzhruz, ruzyhyd dyzvÿrz vrüthnazg myrbyrup dazduvz zubzurbårgrabvb ruuznyznæåz.
Nyzzuv ånr gorzruuzbḧar yuth dyzgḧul nyzärrz margkhrüz, GROHZARDYZZAMB!
Gyz häz rupgörz abgruz häz Ryvdurth Zubhazohbr, Äkharḧvzuv’muz

Hey translator, can't you speak orcish?
'gyz' means 'by' not 'hurt' …
Come round and see me one day,
I'm gonna teach you a lesson, harrr.
Oricish regards, Kapou’e
... forget it. Old translator version...

;)
Last edited by Chewan on November 11th, 2016, 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby The_Gnat » November 8th, 2016, 7:20 pm

Burdryyrvdrub dryrzurzbrabd ryyg hyyr hraz ghurruuzuth hraz Brarghguur dvyz dryg bravzurdrug hyyr ryyrvbryvdorb truuv mhuun y drazkhruzmarg barz marggruuzberz maazzambnaaz hraz analyze ryyg hrarz abg rozbdurgmuz ryyg y ruvnuzbzur blurdguur hraz naazanrarz thurnyzruhr mhuun ryyg abrz zerghurhrruv bakhhydkryn (grubr nuzdgybzergh zybgyzbakh Drargdyz avr ryygry vohzdazghur khruzzybrup) ;)


Also i noticed trolls post had "SotBe" and it did not translate?
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby tr0ll » November 9th, 2016, 2:08 am

The_Gnat wrote:Burdryyrvdrub dryrzurzbrabd ryyg hyyr hraz ghurruuzuth hraz Brarghguur dvyz dryg bravzurdrug hyyr ryyrvbryvdorb truuv mhuun y drazkhruzmarg barz marggruuzberz maazzambnaaz hraz analyze ryyg hrarz abg rozbdurgmuz ryyg y ruvnuzbzur blurdguur hraz naazanrarz thurnyzruhr mhuun ryyg abrz zerghurhrruv bakhhydkryn (grubr nuzdgybzergh zybgyzbakh Drargdyz avr ryygry vohzdazghur khruzzybrup) ;)

Also i noticed trolls post had "SotBe" and it did not translate?


If you want it hard to decipher i would suggest starting from a completely different method of communication such as sign language, which is based on cascading/chaining concepts rather than serially transcribing speech or just transliterating english.

Naazgodrzub, duvzghur gryzzuvkuz bru hazzambkhruz rozbag dvyz thurnyzruhr ard-zrambbzur truuv ryyg abg bru DhdVV
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby Dugi » November 10th, 2016, 7:11 pm

tr0ll wrote:Brabd khruzzybrup rezz dryg naazur rabvbzubkhruz muz SotBE? Zurvybvdrub hrarz rezz maaz avr druubr avr hazbzyvdyz dgybz. 8)
Zramb naazur rezz maaz truuv druubr.

Chewan wrote:...Drug rezz rabvburrz dvyz brarghzerghurhr drugh ruthmyyvzamb, ZORDNORVMYYV!...
Aargh, halten du mich enschrecken mit Sachen so was. U gruuzdorbruhr--t wanna nyz y maaznorv kryn.

The_Gnat wrote:Burdryyrvdrub dryrzurzbrabd ryyg hyyr hraz ghurruuzuth hraz Brarghguur dvyz dryg bravzurdrug hyyr ryyrvbryvdorb truuv mhuun y drazkhruzmarg barz marggruuzberz maazzambnaaz hraz analyze ryyg hrarz abg rozbdurgmuz ryyg y ruvnuzbzur blurdguur hraz naazanrarz thurnyzruhr mhuun ryyg abrz zerghurhrruv bakhhydkryn (grubr nuzdgybzergh zybgyzbakh Drargdyz avr ryygry vohzdazghur khruzzybrup) ;)

tr0ll wrote:If you want it hard to decipher i would suggest starting from a completely different method of communication such as sign language, which is based on cascading/chaining concepts rather than serially transcribing speech or just transliterating english.

Zerz nyzanrdraz arzbyrgruth grohvrognyz, bgaz abg uthzordblurd zybzahrzyb zarberzzyb hvu myzg.

_________
I am trying a novel method of translating to blackspeech, without the need for a massive dictionary of randomly generated words (where game and games are totally different words on the other end). I have made a statistical analysis of English language, finding most common letter groups and replacing them by blackspeech syllables systematically (making this a cypher rather than a language). To achieve this, I needed much more syllables, so I had to add some umlauts and a few other letters. This way, the generated text's length is about 174% 158% of the same text in English, which is slightly worse better than the current blackspeech, which produces texts with 162% of the length of English text (the more length-inefficient languages need about 140% of the size of English text).

EDIT:
Okay, implemented. All previous messages in blackspeech are made untranslatable back unless I re-enable the old one, I am sorry.

On the other hand, this one has those demanded umlauts and other symbols related to nordic languages, slightly shorter words and does not need a heavy dictionary. It technically isn't a language this time, but a cypher. It works on any words, however it's coded to produce shorter words in English, not in any other language.

Yuth müzduvz nuz ruzẅrüthḧwög, müzruuz dazduvzzüürd abgruz nyzzuv bårghrüz y gorzhydgÿzdhræm muzdörbkḧrüzænrrup ruzbzür öthnyz zørdohbr? U grohmärg dazzurbruüzbrav häz zørdohbr, rḧÿgh zamburrgoẗhburd. U yöth gödrzæmbryyrv vybvruzyöthnazgubaaz grohruth øẗhnäæzakh grohruth ryyrvdörbanr gyz zuumrüvoth zamburrgryvbrryrvöthöthakh bugḧryvzurguḧrdaz yuth U zubbhak rḧÿgh vörry zubgÿz gzÿv zørdohbr gyz ürhrgzyvvarrmüzzürwruth. Gorzurrz uanr müznaaz gorzmuz gödrzæmbryyrv zørdbürd gzÿv zubbhak y daznäzgmüzuhruz zambbgazzururzbürdyzybzurguḧr brüüz myrbgḧul grohzord gḧurghul uanr.
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby tr0ll » November 11th, 2016, 12:02 am

u zråmbghul arzyurz nyzärrz arzzambbrav dazudryrz uanr udaz bårgohbr gorznyz häz zambarzötḧgẅød ürzænrrup.

Might be nice to have a prefix that indicates translator version for backward/forward compatibility, like bash uses:
Code: Select all
#!bs 2.0

or like the unix file command uses:
Code: Select all
%BS-2.0

of if it gets implemented as a BBCode tag:
Code: Select all
[bs v=2.0]blackspeech[/bs]
would output oẗhbääzäkhdaznäzgbyzhzub

btw your website translator seems to reset/crash when i tried to paste the whole thing above into it
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby The_Gnat » November 11th, 2016, 12:31 am

Nice i like the umlauts ;) and yeah it would be great to have a browser extension for this!
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby Dugi » November 11th, 2016, 8:06 am

tr0ll wrote:u zråmbghul arzyurz nyzärrz arzzambbrav dazudryrz uanr udaz bårgohbr gorznyz häz zambarzötḧgẅød ürzænrrup.
Zurzuböth, nyzmuzyzub, U dazmüzarzgrohruv anrbzyv zurzamb.

tr0ll wrote:Might be nice to have a prefix that indicates translator version for backward/forward compatibility, like bash uses:
It would look pretty bad. I have a compile switch there at the moment so that I could bring back the old one when I choose.

tr0ll wrote:would output oẗhbääzäkhdaznäzgbyzhzub
Dunno if that would be doable.

tr0ll wrote:btw your website translator seems to reset/crash when i tried to paste the whole thing above into it
Which whole thing? After all yesterday's fixes, I had no crashes.

The_Gnat wrote:Nice i like the umlauts ;)
Glad you like it, getting those non-ASCII characters to work was a pain in the arse.
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Re: Blackspeech generator (now with a translator!)

Postby The_Gnat » November 11th, 2016, 8:29 am

Dugi wrote:
tr0ll wrote:btw your website translator seems to reset/crash when i tried to paste the whole thing above into it

Which whole thing? After all yesterday's fixes, I had no crashes.


I didn't have any problems either, its odd that tr0ll did

Dugi wrote:Glad you like it, getting those non-ASCII characters to work was a pain in the arse.


:P
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