[mainline] The North Remembers

[Whiskeyjack]

Alright, this time a more specified version of my previous post:

On the (badly Paint-ed) map you can see my vision of our heroes journey. As you can guess, the Xs mark scenarios, with Arabic numbers representing old scenarios (as a frame for the changes), the Roman numbers representing new scenarios I think should be included and the letters representing new scenarios I think could be included.
The green field marks the location I envision for the eastern war between undead and NA/Lintanir with the red arrows being the movements of NA troops and the yellow arrows representing the advancement of Ravanal´s troops. (Most of that is background information and will not be seen in the campaign.)

Scenario 5: Northern Outpost:

This scenario (and the others up to this point) should mostly follow my last suggested version. The only new thing is the inclusion of a messenger from Soradoc reporting an attack and the subsequent fall of the city to undead marching north on the western riverbank.
In the following discussion about what should be done the heroes reach the conclusion that they must reach the NA to find a safe place for the villagers and possibly get help against the invasion.
They know where to find the NA (a well-established powerhouse at this point) but there is no road they could follow thus what they search for is a path the refugees can take through the wilderness. (since the only path left to them is north after Soradocs fall and the encirclement on three sides by undead.

Edit: See also my changes for scenario I: Ford of Parthyn for another reason to go directly north.

Scenario I: Ford of Parthyn (formerly Withdrawing North):

Having an undead and orc as enemies in this scenario seems fine to me (as it was with scenario 6: Two Paths). This could be too heavy on the connection part but we could have the orcish warlord (as referenced by the raid leader in scenario 4a) now have a line about a new orcish king(dom) to foreshadow the Capturing (we could of course always drop the line in scenario 4a and connect only the second orc…).
The undead would have to be situated east-north-east and the orc north-west. The objective stays the same: defeat one of the enemies so we can lead the refugees over a safe flank to the road north. Defeating the second enemy could be optional or skipped (because with undead behind the heroes are in a hurry).
I´ve been replaying Defaldors Memoirs and it turns out, there is a ford as well as a fort at Parthyn, directly north of the Northern Outpost. One more reason to take that road.
And a reason to relocate the scenario to said ford. There are 156 years between Defaldors visit of the fort and the time of our heroes. The ford should still be there but for the rest we have all the freedom. Was there still a garrison? Big? Small? As Wesnoth had 90 years of relative peace and probably a whole greatly decreased danger of orcish raids since the founding of the NA. Therefore I think it would only have been weakly garrisoned. As a result we could have the fort taken by orcs or undead. We could have orcs north of the river, or somewhere south, fighting undead in the fort to cross (and then possibly making an alliance as in scenario 6: Two Paths) or we could have undead spawning in the river (as in my earlier suggestion about a Ford of Abez scenario) or have them come from the west on either bank of the river. I think every one of those options can easily be cemented by a few lines of dialogue and reasonably integrated.

Scenario II: ??:

I am not sure what to do here but I think we need a couple scenarios so that Captured is not as early in the campaign. One possibility could be the lich-inspired drake-exodus southward Cold Steel mentioned. Another would be the generic orcs(a party searching for the missing warlord -> even more foreshadowing)/undead (catching up from the south/coming from the east).

Scenario A: Advance Guard:

This is merely another idea for a filler scenario before Captured: The player allies with the Lintanir advance guard to throw back the undead one…

Scenario III: A Night at the Swamps:

Scenario against saurians at the outskirts of the Swamp of Dread. This is mostly for game-play variety and fillers before Captured. After outrunning/defeating the immediate undead pursuers the villagers (and the soldiers) need a good night’s sleep, but alack camping next to the swamps was not the best idea. Could be a straight up fight or some kind of survival without losing to many tent-villages (representing the civilians) and defeating the saurians only as bonus objective.

Upon winning have the heroes move to the north-western corner (representing the departure) and get captured by orcs there.

Scenario IV/11: Captured:

Just a wild idea: Instead of the recalled level one (or one of the others, for all I care) there could be a dwarf in the cell that explains that the orcs overtook this only weakly manned outpost. He does not know what happened to his comrades, but he has been working on breaking the back wall of his cell.
The death of this unit would be a loss condition in this scenario as he would also take the engineers roll in the next scenario and could be justified that they need him to escape the orcs and find a quicker way to the NA.

Scenario V/12: Evacuation:

I really liked your idea of taking this scenario underground, thus this is my proposition for this scenario. The passage could be collapsed by a hidden mechanism only known to the dwarf. I guess that designing/balancing this scenario would be a rather tricky piece of work because of the movement penalties in caves but it would feel way better to me than the bridge scenario.

Scenario B: ??:

Another possibility for more scenarios that I do not deem necessary for the story but that might be included for balance/campaign length reasons. Possible settings: A mixed dwarvish/human band of outlaws/bandits that attacks the track of villagers. The drake-exodus. A tribe of trolls/ogers coming down from the mountains.
I have marked these as well as the C-scenarios as optional because I am not sure if we want to change the balance of even the last scenarios this greatly by adding more scenarios between 12 Evacuation and 13 Drowned Plains.

Scenario VI: Northern Alliance:

Talk only scenario at a mustering of NA forces. Getting intelligence from far ranging gryphon scouts about the rampage of an undead dragon in northern Wesnoth and the northern invasion. Result: Decision to split the NA forces and send some of them to help Weldyn while the majority of the troops marches east to fight their own enemy (and deal with the orcs).
Further decision (if scenarios C are included) if the player wants to help retake the Ford of Abez from undead that travelled across the riverbed or take a more direct route towards the Horse Plains. Agreement, that the heroes stop the dragon (as they cannot risk having it at their back when fighting Ravanal) while the NA troops march directly on Weldyn by way of Tath. If alive, the dwarf from Captured should follow the player. Perhaps another one-three units as an envoy of the NA that accompany them (since the player did not get the ogers).

Scenario C1: The Ford of Abez:

Similar to my previous version of this battle, only that this time the undead have destroyed the cities/forts on both sides of the river and fortified themselves.
I want to include this scenario to show how all-encompassing Ravanal´s attack plan on Wesnoth is (and to include one more fighting scenario vs. undead as an opportunity to train fitting units – we lost the undead in the crossing scenarios). Furthermore this would be great to show the developement in the last hundred years of both NA and Wesnoth because it would work in direct contrast to the scenario in HttT where this ford was somewhere in the wilderness.

Scenario C2: ??:

A filler scenario for the direct route (can be skipped if C1 is deemed fitting and choices for the player unnecessary). Possible enemies: The drake-exodus, outlaws as mentioned in B (my least favorite solution) or saurians thirsting for revenge because of their last encounter.

Scenario VII: Chaos:

I want this scenario because of a point that came up several times in this thread: Showing the chaos that followed Mal-Ravanals attack. I imagine this as the player chancing upon refugees (Peasants, Woodsmen and possibly carts) beset by bandits (that include defected Wesnothian soldiers). Possibly some stray undead ranging through the woods. There are a couple possibilities for gameplay with the most aggravating one being a protect mission with computer-controlled peasants.

Scenario 13: The Drowned Plains:

Pretty much what I wrote in my last version. I do think that it would be nice to have Owaec take on a personal vendetta after seing the swamp-ing of his homeland.

Scenario 14: Approaching Weldyn:

Two possibilities: The player could control the NA units as a second faction or it could be controlled by the computer. I would always include the NA troops (except in 17a The Duell) if their leader survived the last scenario. In 17b Weldyn Besieged the player could have the leader as a loyal auto-recall unit (probably a Dwarvish Lord) and be able to recruit level 2 NA units (if the NA was computer-controlled) or be able to recall the surviving veterans if the player controlled the NA.

For the following scenarios (especially the Epilogue) see my last version.

Note that if we only use the Roman numbered scenarios we will have lost 5 scenarios (6-10) and gotten 4 new playable scenarios (I, II, III, VII). Of those I think the one we need least is scenario II and if we include scenario A as mandatory this might actually be droppable. Of the optional scenarios I would most strongly favor including C1: Ford of Abez. We have at least one scenario less between 5: Northern Outpost and 11: Captured and at least one more between 12: Evacuation and 13: Drowned Plains.

Edit: Significantly changed scenario I.

This line in the timeline would have to be changed to fit our new version, if it ever gets done:

627 YW In the northlands, the orcs drive Gweddry's army back across the river.

[zookeeper]

After Northern Outpost:
I think it's a good idea to merge scenarios 6 and 7a/b into one into the Ford of Parthyn scenario.

Before Captured:
After that, I don't think there's need for more than two filler scenarios before you get captured. Some kind of fight in or around the swamp, and then a second one where you reach the hills/mountains and get taken at the end of.

I think the first one can reasonably easily be set up as a plain filler fight involving any or several of saurians, orcs, undead, drakes and ogres. As for Xenophobia, the main problem with it is that the dialogue is ridiculous and it doesn't make any sense that everyone's fighting basically because they don't... like each other, I guess? However, the basic premise of a multi-race free-for-all is a very nice chance of pace so it'd be good if we could keep that aspect somehow. Some assorted ideas:
- You just need to get everyone across the battlefield.
- The last side/race standing allies with you (so instead of only ogres, you can effectively pick one from several sidekick races).
- Some undead case you, and ally with some/all of the others, but you can shift/break the alliances by defeating the enemy sides (they ally with who they perceive as the strongest, or something like that).

The bigger problem is what could be happening in the scenario where you get captured, and/or where exactly Gweddry and co would be heading at that point. Some ideas:
- You get into a hopeless survive-as-long-as-you-can fight at nowhere in particular on your way, get taken to the caves.
- Dacyn wants to take a shortcut to Knalga by entering the tunnels from some dwarvish outpost, but the outpost's entrance is besieged by orcs. You defeat them, but unbeknownst to you, the orcs have attacked and taken the outpost via underground pathways as well (while the ones you defeated were just making sure no one escapes); the doors swing open and you're immediately overwhelmed.

In all cases, I suppose that at the end of Evacuation, you'd emerge for example from one of the side passages at Dwarven Doors and thus find the NA. If more action is needed, you could emerge into the middle of a battle or siege, and have to help out the NA before you get to talk business.

I wouldn't involve Lintanir directly, since if you have contact with them it mostly raises questions about why they're not doing anything much even though they're being attacked, and I don't really see why Ravanal would do that and attract their attention anyway when he really should be diverting all his resources towards taking Wesnoth as fast as possible. Gweddry or Owaec could certainly bring up the elves as an alternative to the NA as a source of help though, only to have Dacyn explain how and why it's just not a realistic prospect.

After finding NA:
Up until this point, at least 1 or 2 scenarios have been cut, so I think this would be a good spot to add one, and crossing the Ford of Abez as in your suggestion would be a logical choice. It's a place the undead could be guarding quite heavily (forts, skellies in the water, etc), providing an opportunity for making the NA assistance (gryphons?) you have to actually be invaluable in gameplay terms. Because of that, I'd not be keen on making it optional.

The details of that scenario as well as what role the NA plays in the following scenarios largely depends on what form the NA takes exactly. Do they appear as a second side you control? As an allied AI side? Or they just grant you new recruitables and a loyal unit representative?

I'd be inclined to keep them as an AI-controlled side, mainly because you won't have a lot of time to level up fresh recruits of your own, and because story-wise I'd much rather the NA plays a limited role in helping you get to Weldyn rather than partake in the final battles. If you're given recruits, it bloats your recruit list and it'd not be fair to take those units away from the player again. If you're given a side to control, you'll spend effort leveling up the units, and it'd be annoying when you realize you don't get to keep them. An AI-controlled side gives you no false impression that taking care of them might pay off later.

Anyway, I'm not sure about inserting another scenario inside Wesnoth (your Chaos suggestion). Story-wise you're steamrolling towards Weldyn in a great big hurry, and I think stopping to help peasants fight off bandits can easily seem more like pure filler. You also have a lot of high-level units at this point, so you'd need an army-sized pile of bandits and defected soldiers to fight for it to be a challenge. Showing how bad things are is good, but it sounds like this could be done as part of Drowned Plains or Approaching Weldyn instead of as a separate scenario? Or at least I think it'd warrant some added element of plot significance.

So, to summarize what my suggestion for the scenario outline would be (aside from the possible inclusion of the extra scenario before Drowned Plains):

06: Two Paths replacement: Ford of Parthyn; orcs and undead (whether allied or not)
(The/Undead Crossing removed)
(Training the Ogres removed)
07: Xenophobia replacement; orc/saurian/drake/undead/ogre FFA, maybe gain a sidekick race
08: Lake Vrug replacement; getting captured by orcs somewhere relatively near Dwarven Doors
09: Captured; as currently, except introducing the dwarf engineer
10: Evacuation; moved to underground, dwarf engineer helps you to surface, where you find NA
(talks with NA covered at end of 10 and in intro of 11)
11: Ford of Abez; NA helps you back to Wesnoth
12: The Drowned Plains; as currently
13: Approaching Weldyn; NA helps you punch through to Weldyn, then pulls back (last time you see them directly)

As far as I can tell, that's in principle almost the same as yours, with the biggest difference being that I'd drop the NA after Approaching Weldyn. It'd still give the NA troops two scenarios to shine (in addition to whatever loyal unit(s) would stick with you), but would leave you all alone for the desperate final stand of Wesnoth vs Mal-Ravanal, which I think fits better than having the NA on-screen at that point. While I'm sure he'd eventually like to conquer the world, it seems like in EI it's really about Ravanal's personal vendetta against Wesnoth, so it'd be nice if the final battle remained only between those two sides.

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the first one can reasonably easily be set up as a plain filler fight involving any or several of saurians, orcs, undead, drakes and ogres. As for Xenophobia, the main problem with it is that the dialogue is ridiculous and it doesn't make any sense that everyone's fighting basically because they don't... like each other, I guess? However, the basic premise of a multi-race free-for-all is a very nice chance of pace so it'd be good if we could keep that aspect somehow. Some assorted ideas:
- You just need to get everyone across the battlefield.
- The last side/race standing allies with you (so instead of only ogres, you can effectively pick one from several sidekick races).
- Some undead case you, and ally with some/all of the others, but you can shift/break the alliances by defeating the enemy sides (they ally with who they perceive as the strongest, or something like that).

That sounds reasonable. I like the suggestion of getting last-race-standing as an ally (although I would do it as surrender by that side and just sending a couple units with you as support, they joining your cause would be strange and I´d like to mostly keep the loyalist vs. undead spirit of the campaign) as bonus objective, while leaving the option to just cross and ignore the madness. I will try to think of a scenario that believably pits 3 of the factions you mentioned (of course no undead, they allying with you would be rather awkward).
Additionally I´d suggest to get 4-5 caravan wagons in this scenario representing the civillians. You´d either have to get them all to the signpost or defeat the enemies. Losing one would be a loss condition. That gives a challenge gameplay-wise (Saurians...) and picks up on the fact that you have all those refugees with you.

The bigger problem is what could be happening in the scenario where you get captured, and/or where exactly Gweddry and co would be heading at that point. Some ideas:
- You get into a hopeless survive-as-long-as-you-can fight at nowhere in particular on your way, get taken to the caves.
- Dacyn wants to take a shortcut to Knalga by entering the tunnels from some dwarvish outpost, but the outpost's entrance is besieged by orcs. You defeat them, but unbeknownst to you, the orcs have attacked and taken the outpost via underground pathways as well (while the ones you defeated were just making sure no one escapes); the doors swing open and you're immediately overwhelmed.

The shortcut is actually a good option. Wesnoth and NA would have been trading for more than hundred years now (and perhaps Wesnoth helped even with the founding of it, if we stick with the way the HttT-discussion is going at the moment), thus it wouldn´t be unreasonable to have a knowledge of certain entrance points to the Knalgan tunnels.

Regarding the NA:
I like your reasoning and the way you suggested the scenarios. The deal would have to be something like: The heroes try to take down Krahkrahs while the NA forces try to bind the undead and open the path for them to reach Wesnoth. Then they´d retreat to deal with their own problems (the orcs) instead of engaging in the desperate battle. (Still kind of an ass move, any better suggestions?)
I agree to keep the NA AI controlled. That´s the best option.

For followers I would suggest the engineer (Thunderer because powder, Scout because theme, Guardsman because outpost or Fighter because standard?) joins you and you get one/two other unit(s) as some kind of adjutant(s) after the Ford of Abez, that decide to stick with you once the rest of the NA troops retreats. (I´d say a Gryphon Rider would be the logical choice here, but one Dwarvish Fighter would be great as well, therefore two (if the engineer is anything but a Fighter))

Approaching Weldyn would have to be changed in gameplay as well, to display the NAs attempts to open a corridor but that shouldn´t be a big task compared to the rest.

With all that, we have one less fighting scenario overall, is that alright with you?

[zookeeper]

That sounds reasonable. I like the suggestion of getting last-race-standing as an ally (although I would do it as surrender by that side and just sending a couple units with you as support, they joining your cause would be strange and I´d like to mostly keep the loyalist vs. undead spirit of the campaign) as bonus objective, while leaving the option to just cross and ignore the madness. I will try to think of a scenario that believably pits 3 of the factions you mentioned (of course no undead, they allying with you would be rather awkward).
Additionally I´d suggest to get 4-5 caravan wagons in this scenario representing the civillians. You´d either have to get them all to the signpost or defeat the enemies. Losing one would be a loss condition. That gives a challenge gameplay-wise (Saurians...) and picks up on the fact that you have all those refugees with you.

Well, I'm having trouble thinking of how that could be done without it being really strange; you'd not see the caravans in the preceding scenario nor following 3 scenarios (afterwards the civilians would likely be left with the NA), but suddenly there they are for one scenario for you to protect even though logically they're with you the whole time. Especially if losing one is a loss condition, I fear it'd easily feel pretty contrived.

Regarding the NA:
I like your reasoning and the way you suggested the scenarios. The deal would have to be something like: The heroes try to take down Krahkrahs while the NA forces try to bind the undead and open the path for them to reach Wesnoth. Then they´d retreat to deal with their own problems (the orcs) instead of engaging in the desperate battle. (Still kind of an ass move, any better suggestions?)
I agree to keep the NA AI controlled. That´s the best option.

As I mentioned earlier, the NA forces to assist you can be relatively small simply because you don't have time to wait for them to amass a proper army. So the NA troops which accompany you are just the troops they can get ready in a few days, which probably isn't much. So, I think it'd be relatively easy to write it as not an ass move; for example, since they can't afford as many troops as Gweddry and Dacyn had hoped, they only ask for limited help in getting to Weldyn. That is accomplished, and to prevent the NA troops from getting trapped in the siege, Gweddry and Dacyn insist they pull back. They don't need to head home to deal with their own problems, they could go off to help evacuate Dan´Tonk or something, or to harass the undead lines from behind.

For followers I would suggest the engineer (Thunderer because powder, Scout because theme, Guardsman because outpost or Fighter because standard?) joins you and you get one/two other unit(s) as some kind of adjutant(s) after the Ford of Abez, that decide to stick with you once the rest of the NA troops retreats. (I´d say a Gryphon Rider would be the logical choice here, but one Dwarvish Fighter would be great as well, therefore two (if the engineer is anything but a Fighter))

Not sure. Thunderer would be fitting for the engineer, but it's going to be awfully useless against undead, which is what you'll be fighting from that point onwards. Fighter would be more useful, but then again you get HI already. Guardsman maybe, if Sentinels are actually better defenders than whatever loyalist units you'd get anyway (I'm not sure). I don't really have any ideas about the NA loyals.

With all that, we have one less fighting scenario overall, is that alright with you?

Yeah, I don't think that's a problem at all.

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, I'm having trouble thinking of how that could be done without it being really strange; you'd not see the caravans in the preceding scenario nor following 3 scenarios (afterwards the civilians would likely be left with the NA), but suddenly there they are for one scenario for you to protect even though logically they're with you the whole time. Especially if losing one is a loss condition, I fear it'd easily feel pretty contrived.

For Ford of Parthyn it wouldn´t be a problem, because one could say the refugees stayed back until the passage was clear (defeat leaders objective), while a move-through-scenario would require to protect the civilians on the battlefield. The Captured-scenarios would be a problem. There could be wagons placed in the cells, but that would be no fun at all in a cave scenario, so I guess dropping the idea is the right choice.

As I mentioned earlier, the NA forces to assist you can be relatively small simply because you don't have time to wait for them to amass a proper army.

Didn´t think of this, but it makes sense. They need a lot of troops against the undead (distraction) and the orcs and the heroes don´t have the time (as underlined by gryphon reports) to wait a couple weeks for a new mustering.
Helping in the plagued hinterlands is a good option too (and a great way too sneak in a mention of that problem ).

Not sure. Thunderer would be fitting for the engineer, but it's going to be awfully useless against undead, which is what you'll be fighting from that point onwards. Fighter would be more useful, but then again you get HI already. Guardsman maybe, if Sentinels are actually better defenders than whatever loyalist units you'd get anyway (I'm not sure). I don't really have any ideas about the NA loyals.

Well, the ogers in the current version weren´t usefull (except for fodder in Captured) and the engineer wasn´t auto recalled in later scenarios IIRC. I think thunderer would work to be somewhat usefull, if he´d be loyal and autorecalled, otherwise guardsman. For the NA aides I´d then use a Steelclad as a loyal and autorecalled supporter (perhaps to be kept alive until Approaching Weldyn) who´d get his own dialogue lines and a level 1 or 2 gryphon rider (perhaps loyal too) that is not autorecalled after Ford of Abez. I wouldn´t use the engineer as liaison officer, because military rankings and politics and stuff.

With that I think all immidiate questions are answered, but I´m short on time right now so I might not get to start working on this for the next two weeks.

Edit: About the orcs: Should I try to connect the orcs in 4a An Elven Alliance and 6: Ford of Parthyn with the orcs trying to build their own kingdom?
I will also try to give some explanation as to why there are dwarves and trolls lurking in a secret escape tunnel.