Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

For writers working on documentation, story prose, announcements, and all kinds of Wesnoth text.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 5:24 pm

To tackle all of them in one post...
Whiskeyjack wrote:If we go with a Li'sar that is (because of to little exposure or denial) not really aware of her mothers crimes instead of being involved, that scenario fits perfectly. Otherwise I think it would have to be played differently for her to suspect the elves and have no doubts about her mothers part in that.
I see her mother explicitly telling her it was Delfador and his rebels who did this, spinning Li'sar up with this lie and then sending her off. Even if she had been about to confront her mother on the state of the kingdom, she was currently just harboring doubts as to what her mother was doing. Maybe her mother didn't know the conditions on the border, maybe she was being misled by advisers/commanders/whomever. Li'sar knows her doubts may be unfounded, but she has to know something of Asheviere's nature, which leads her to want to ask.
Sire wrote:The first point will likely require rewritten dialogue for Li'sar...
Whether she believes the truth or not is another matter entirely.
In regards to this point, we can rewrite her dialogue/scenarios preceding to give it more relevance when it does come up. As long as we know what we want to lead in to, it makes it easier to backtrack and build up to that in preceding views of Li'sar. In any situation where she sounds x or does y, assume that can be altered to fit a strong, well-developed Li'sar and not that it must stay.
Sire wrote:2: Li'sar needs to demonstrate her commanding abilities
She does do this well for all of the points you noted, and while maybe not a second recruiting leader, we could have her with her own little "strike force" under the player's control that are noted as her troops at scenario start.
Sire wrote:3: Li'sar needs a more developed reason on why she switches to Konrad's side.
Not a bad idea on how to deal with her soldiers, though would they be willing to die for Konrad and the rebels, even if they do realize they are not as bad as previously thought?
Sire wrote:4: Li'sar's relationship with her mother, Queen Asheviere, needs to be expanded.
Interludes are not a terrible idea - the whole campaign starts off with an omnipresent narrator, so it would not be out of place if it cropped up again here or there. It could also help to explain some of the time/events between scenarios for the aid of character development, but it would need to be short, most likely just one screen.

Your ideas are always welcome and useful, thanks Sire!
Cold Steel wrote:Now I know I can come across quite harsh on the campaigns, but I do realize how much toiling went into making them, and I don't want to sound critical of their creators for leaving details like character development vague.
The major focus was on gameplay and overall story, and often those who wrote the campaigns were not in and of themselves writers. As you noted, this sometimes meant that character development may have ended up vague or there may be some minor issues with the plot. At the end of the day, they still provided a great campaign to play, but another pass to tighten up the writing is never amiss. I am not skilled in WML, but I can do map design/scenario balance and writing. With the help all of you in figuring this all out, when our powers combine...
Cold Steel wrote:Woah, what? She knowingly sent Eldred to die? I do not remember any indication of that at all. In HttT's opening slideshow, it shows a bereaved Asheviere holding Eldred's bloody body. Do I misremember?
I may have tinkered. :whistle:

Code: Select all

[story]
    [part]
        music=revelation.ogg
        story= _ "King Garard's kingdom had enjoyed twenty-eight years of peace and prosperity before trouble arose. Peace had dulled the blades of Garard's armies while greed had sharpened those of the Orcs to the north. No longer content with border raids, the Orcs sent an invasion army south."
        {HTTT_BIGMAP}
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Eager to sieze the initiative, the King dispatched his scouts to find favorable ground. The Northern host encamped by the ford of Abez, and the king led his army to meet them. Wary of any traps, King Garard split his army and appointed his son, the crown prince Eldred, as commander of the reserve."
        background=story/httt_story1.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Eldred was a brave and courageous warrior, but ambition burned in his heart. Not content to wait for his father's death by natural means, Eldred chose a more treacherous path. In the heat of battle, Eldred and his men turned on the king. Unprepared for the assault, Garard was slain in battle that day, as were Eldred's brothers and uncle."
        background=story/httt_story2.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Garard’s queen, Asheviere, watched from a nearby hill. Far from grief, her heart filled with glee at the thought of her son's rule. Eldred's ambition made him susceptible to her manipulations."
        background=story/httt_story3.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "In a surprising display of restraint, the warlord of the North offered peace with Eldred in exchange for tribute to swell his coffers. Eager to assume the throne, Eldred readily accepted the agreement and led his army south."
        {BIGMAP_INTRO}
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Unbeknowst to Eldred, Garard’s arch-mage, Delfador, had escaped the battle and rode with haste to Weldyn. He mustered a ragtag force of loyalists from local garrisons to fight Eldred and avenge the king. The loyalist army marched north to meet Eldred."
        background=story/httt_story4.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "On the eve of battle, Eldred scanned the loyalist army with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: <i>“Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders.”</i>"
        background=story/httt_story4.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Intent on removing this last obstacle, Eldred sought out Delfador on the battlefield, in the hinterlands near Tath. Sword clashed against staff, as the wise old mage fought the brash young warrior."
        background=story/httt_story5.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "In the end, Delfador’s men were outnumbered by Eldred's army. Defeated and routed, the loyalist army fled the field but left Asheviere her son’s lifeless body."
        background=story/httt_story6.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Declaring vengeance on those who had opposed the crown, Asheviere took command of the army. Once back in Weldyn, she secretly ordered all of the king's nephews killed to secure her position as successor. When the bodies were discovered, Ashievere claimed that Delfador had been behind it all, killing the king and heirs and misleading the Weldyn forces to help him kill Eldred. With the absence of any male successor, Asheviere was crowned Queen of Wesnoth."
        {HTTT_BIGMAP}
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "At her coronation feast, a courier delivered a package to Asheviere. Enclosed was a swaddling blanket, embroidered in the corner with the name of Garard's youngest nephew. The courier was seized and questioned, but he only knew the sender as an old man with a staff..."
        background=story/httt_story7.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Fleeing to the Aethenwood beyond the south-western border of Wesnoth, Delfador raised the child Konrad under the protection of the Elves, watching sadly as Asheviere’s reign of terror over the land began."
        background=story/httt_story8.jpg
    [/part]
[/story]
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

User avatar
Sire
Posts: 127
Joined: April 6th, 2012, 11:03 pm
Location: USA

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Sire » September 17th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Just to throw a quick bit of feedback,

I personally enjoy the aspect of Asheviere actually loving her son, Eldred, instead of sending him too to his death and becoming extremely mad with power. With her grief over her son's passing, it shows that even the Dark Queen Asheviere had some remnant of humanity left in her.
Current Projects: Red Winter || Sire's Scenarios
- Looking for single player scenarios? Check out Tactician's Challenge - UMC Scenario Pack!

name
Posts: 336
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by name » September 17th, 2015, 5:56 pm

Turuk wrote:

Code: Select all

"Garard’s queen, Asheviere, watched from a nearby hill. Far from grief, her heart filled with glee at the thought of her son's rule. Eldred's ambition made him susceptible to her manipulations."
Yeah, that line plus the depiction of her finding Eldred's corpse definitely shows she was not intentionally sending him to his death. She sent Eldred to kill Delfador so as to eliminate the latter, not the former.
Sire wrote: I personally enjoy the aspect of Asheviere actually loving her son, Eldred, instead of sending him too to his death and becoming extremely mad with power. With her grief over her son's passing, it shows that even the Dark Queen Asheviere had some remnant of humanity left in her.
I feel the same.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 6:30 pm

Sire wrote:I personally enjoy the aspect of Asheviere actually loving her son, Eldred, instead of sending him too to his death and becoming extremely mad with power. With her grief over her son's passing, it shows that even the Dark Queen Asheviere had some remnant of humanity left in her.
Cold Steel wrote:Yeah, that line plus the depiction of her finding Eldred's corpse definitely shows she was not intentionally sending him to his death. She sent Eldred to kill Delfador so as to eliminate the latter, not the former.
Yes, while she certainly does not mind having complete power, she actually would have had more freedom to delve into the dark arts with Garard out of the way but Eldred running the kingdom (under her manipulations of course).
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 380
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Whiskeyjack » September 17th, 2015, 6:36 pm

Cold Steel wrote:The solution I believe is to always think of the characters as real life adult people that would be credible in the real world, but are born into the world of Irdya instead. They are not driven by "good and evil" but by their hopes and fears, past experiences and ideas about the future, etc. Then you let the circumstances of their place and time put them together so they can interact in surprising but ultimately understandable and relatable ways. Even a character like Asheviere or a Licht should be relatable to in some small way.
Perhaps I talked to much about good and evil. I didn´t mean it in the LotR-style of absolute goodness (which is not as absolute as it is often made out to be), but more in the way we say a real life person is good (or not). I think leaving Defaldor as a person of character, integrity, noble attitude and striving more for the best of Wesnoth and allied groups (dwarves, elves) than for his own good is fine. This can be done as a one-dimensional stereotype of a good-vs-evil person, or it can be done as a conflicted, struggling but ultimately good-natured person.
Woah, what? She knowingly sent Eldred to die? I do not remember any indication of that at all. In HttT's opening slideshow, it shows a bereaved Asheviere holding Eldred's bloody body. Do I misremember?
I think you indeed disremember and even in Turuks new version, this is still part of the plot. Her glee is caused by her son being easier to manipulate, I see no connection to her sending him to his death or not. The following you seem to have missed in both the original and Turuks version:

Code: Select all

On the eve of battle, Eldred scanned the loyalist army with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: <i>“Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders.”</i>
There is a certain discrepancy still remaining between those quotes, but she does sent a young, hotheaded noble into a duell with the strongest mage of all times... Not hard to see that result coming.
For everything more I allow to quote myself:
Whiskeyjack wrote:
Turuk wrote:Queen "mourns" but takes over in prince's stead. Did she know he would die?
She probably didn´t know it, but certainly hoped for it. I quote from the intro:
"Eldred made war upon Delfador and his forces with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: “Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders.”"
And from Scenario 11: Ford of Abez:
"Konrad: Oh, but the elves always told me that you killed the prince, Delfador, even though you never talked about it.
Delfador: That foolish boy killed himself.
Konrad: What do you mean?
Delfador: I mustered men to fight against the traitor-king, and of course Asheviere too, for she was behind it all. We met them; not here, but on the road from Weldyn, at Tath. We were outnumbered, perhaps four to one. In the heat of battle, that boy, fool that he was, came charging at me, slashing wildly. I had little choice but to end his life."

This leaves me with the certainty that Asheviere tried to fuell him into this reckless attack on Defaldor. It befits a mother spuring her own son to murder his father to drive him towards his own death.
It is a riddle to me as to why you all perceive the depiction of Asheviere over the corpse of her son as grief. To me she looks more angry than sad. Considering that Defaldor escaped that would be enough for me to justify that scene.
Turuk wrote:Yes, while she certainly does not mind having complete power, she actually would have had more freedom to delve into the dark arts with Garard out of the way but Eldred running the kingdom (under her manipulations of course).
Having Asheviere torn between her lust for power and her love for her son, this would make an interesting point, but one that will not be explored much beyond the intro. I hold to it that a showing of humanity in Asheviere should first und foremost be placed towards Li'sar because that would enhance the later conflict of Li'sar´s betrayal and give more reason why Li'sar was loyal to her at first (something the campaign could actually profit from). Regarding Eldred I am open for both options, but I think the dialogue would have to be made clearer that it was one or the other because from my point of view, at the moment both interpretations are possible.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 6:41 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote:I think you indeed disremember and even in Turuks new version, this is still part of the plot. Her glee is caused by her son being easier to manipulate, I see no connection to her sending him to his death or not. The following you seem to have missed in both the original and Turuks version:

Code: [ Select all ]
On the eve of battle, Eldred scanned the loyalist army with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: <i>“Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders.”</i>

There is a certain discrepancy still remaining between those quotes, but she does sent a young, hotheaded noble into a duell with the strongest mage of all times..
I will say that I see her being of two minds on this. If Eldred defeats or drives off Delfador, then she now has Eldred in power and can continue with manipulating him. If he dies, she moves forward with her plan to kill off the other heirs and makes herself Queen, blaming Delfador for all of it. A win-win situation in her mind, though preferably with Eldred not dead. I think that just because she might care for him does not mean that she would put him above her goals.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Having Asheviere torn between her lust for power and her love for her son, this would make an interesting point, but one that will not be explored much beyond the intro.
I think that's acceptable really - it helps to at least paint her as a little more multi-faceted than just an evil queen, and she does not really get much screen time in order for us to learn more about her firsthand.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

User avatar
Sire
Posts: 127
Joined: April 6th, 2012, 11:03 pm
Location: USA

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Sire » September 17th, 2015, 8:28 pm

Then perhaps we can agree to disagree on the interpretation. What one might see an manipulation, another may see as motherly advice to her favored son.

Based off the original script, I see Asheviere attempting to give solid advice to her son, Eldred. Delfador is a great threat to both Asheviere and Eldred, and taking him out early would make an easier time for taking over Wesnoth. Yes, Eldred does fall in his duel against Delfador, and in that story art, I interpret her mood to be in grief and despair. Afterwards, in anger, I believe that Asheviere takes over the throne herself and orders the slaughter of the king's nephews.

Yes, earlier on, the original script does say "Garard’s queen, Asheviere, looked on with glee, having come to watch the battle from a nearby hill. The rule of her son would surely satisfy her lust for power far better than her husband’s had." This too can be interpreted in different ways. Instead of her husband ruling, it would be her own son that would rule. Her son may be more receptive to her ideals, and manipulation may not be needed as the two may share a common goal.

Of course, these are but thoughts. If the audience and maintainer find that Asheviere using Eldred more interesting, then go ahead with that story arc. I just find it to be a missed opportunity if Asheviere only seems to her about herself her lust for power.
Current Projects: Red Winter || Sire's Scenarios
- Looking for single player scenarios? Check out Tactician's Challenge - UMC Scenario Pack!

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9732
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by zookeeper » September 17th, 2015, 8:43 pm

If the intro is the only place where Asheviere's intentions regarding Eldred receive mention, I see no reason to make it explicit one way or another because it just isn't in any way relevant then.

However, there is certainly opportunities to bring up Eldred with Li'sar. Likewise, killing of Eldred would be a logical accusation for Asheviere to hurl at Delfador in the final scenario. In which case, it'd make more sense to use that as an understandable grievance she would still hold, rather than portray her as having been indifferent towards Eldrer and even more of a cartoon villain.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 8:45 pm

Sire wrote:Yes, earlier on, the original script does say "Garard’s queen, Asheviere, looked on with glee, having come to watch the battle from a nearby hill. The rule of her son would surely satisfy her lust for power far better than her husband’s had." This too can be interpreted in different ways. Instead of her husband ruling, it would be her own son that would rule. Her son may be more receptive to her ideals, and manipulation may not be needed as the two may share a common goal.

Of course, these are but thoughts. If the audience and maintainer find that Asheviere using Eldred more interesting, then go ahead with that story arc. I just find it to be a missed opportunity if Asheviere only seems to her about herself her lust for power.
Hmm that's fair. I do feel that she can maintain both motives, that her son would be more receptive to her and a good partner in crime, but even with his death, she is still able to carry on with her plans.
zookeeper wrote:However, there is certainly opportunities to bring up Eldred with Li'sar. Likewise, killing of Eldred would be a logical accusation for Asheviere to hurl at Delfador in the final scenario. In which case, it'd make more sense to use that as an understandable grievance she would still hold, rather than portray her as having been indifferent towards Eldrer and even more of a cartoon villain.
Exactly this - she will still harbor anger/hatred/etc towards Delfador over his killing of Eldred.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 380
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Whiskeyjack » September 17th, 2015, 8:53 pm

Sire wrote:Yes, while she certainly does not mind having complete power, she actually would have had more freedom to delve into the dark arts with Garard out of the way but Eldred running the kingdom (under her manipulations of course).
Sorry if I pick up on that again, but while I can see the other passages interpreted in a way of Asheviere loving her son and wanting him to rule, this line currently would have to be at least interpreted as insanely stupid. If you recognize the threat Defaldor poses you install in every soldier that he is the highest priority target and set a high bounty on his head. You do not send your son in a duel against someone who can incinerate you with one magical lightning strike (except - and this thought just came upon me - if for some reason she was convinced that Defaldor would never kill Eldred and thus he would have the highest chance of any soldier to actually succeed in killing him).

Interestingly, both the above points have a certain support in DM scenario 20: Prince of Wesnoth. That is another scenario where Asheviere sends Eldred on a crazy suicide mission with a small force against the elves of Wesmere of all people (meaning she values a rift between the King and the elves higher (and perhaps Defaldor falling from grace) than her sons life). If not for Defaldor saving him at the last moment he would have died. If not for Defaldor saving him at the last moment! Meaning Defaldor places a high enough impact on preserving the princes life to race after him from Weldyn and go against his friends (ofc this could also just be to save the relationship between Wesnoth and his elf friends).

In my opinion there is a strong dichotomy here that should be somewhat softened on the edges once we settle on a version (and as said before, personally I can agree with both and start being convinced by your points on how it should be, just stating the current situation here).
Turuk wrote:Hmm that's fair. I do feel that she can maintain both motives, that her son would be more receptive to her and a good partner in crime, but even with his death, she is still able to carry on with her plans.
I only think that we need to soften her tries to send Eldred on suicide missions somewhat when we go with her loving Eldred, because IMO sending him against Wesmere and Defaldor (and the assassination attempt on the king) with very high chances of death in both (all three) cases is a little too much if she is fine with him ruling and she loves him.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 9:49 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote:You do not send your son in a duel against someone who can incinerate you with one magical lightning strike (except - and this thought just came upon me - if for some reason she was convinced that Defaldor would never kill Eldred and thus he would have the highest chance of any soldier to actually succeed in killing him).
That was me who came up with that thought, not Sire. :P She knew that Delfador was a threat, and maybe she figured that he would never harm Eldred, that Delfador just hoped to defeat his army and force him to capitulate.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Interestingly, both the above points have a certain support in DM scenario 20: Prince of Wesnoth. That is another scenario where Asheviere sends Eldred on a crazy suicide mission with a small force against the elves of Wesmere of all people (meaning she values a rift between the King and the elves higher (and perhaps Defaldor falling from grace) than her sons life). If not for Defaldor saving him at the last moment he would have died. If not for Defaldor saving him at the last moment! Meaning Defaldor places a high enough impact on preserving the princes life to race after him from Weldyn and go against his friends (ofc this could also just be to save the relationship between Wesnoth and his elf friends).

In my opinion there is a strong dichotomy here that should be somewhat softened on the edges once we settle on a version (and as said before, personally I can agree with both and start being convinced by your points on how it should be, just stating the current situation here).
You make a good point - one has to be decided upon and then that version chosen as consistent across both, instead of trying to rectify two ideas that somewhat oppose each other.
Whiskeyjack wrote:I only think that we need to soften her tries to send Eldred on suicide missions somewhat when we go with her loving Eldred, because IMO sending him against Wesmere and Defaldor (and the assassination attempt on the king) with very high chances of death in both (all three) cases is a little too much if she is fine with him ruling and she loves him.
You could argue assassinating the king she knew he would win with the support of his men, and the king being unsuspecting. Based on other instances, she could have mistakenly but honestly felt if Delfador saved Eldred's life once, surely he would not harm him.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 380
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Whiskeyjack » September 17th, 2015, 10:11 pm

Turuk wrote:That was me who came up with that thought, not Sire. :P
I actually meant to say that it was me who came up with that idea as it seems I overlooked your earlier point and reinvented it :?
Turuk wrote:You could argue assassinating the king she knew he would win with the support of his men, and the king being unsuspecting. Based on other instances, she could have mistakenly but honestly felt if Delfador saved Eldred's life once, surely he would not harm him.
That´s why I factored out the assassination - it was dangerous but with a high chance of success. For the battle at Tath you can take her believe that Defaldor would not kill him as an excuse (based on the previous experience) but it is exactly the previous experience that poses the biggest obstacle (and thus needs a little less influence from the queen - perhaps a solo trip of a rash young commander?) because Defaldor shouldn´t have been there at all which would have resulted in Eldreds death. But rewriting that is easily done in the scenario-dialogue, so no problem.

Do we take the pro-Eldred version for granted now (however it is implemented)? I count 4.5 to zero votes to do this (including you and zookeeper). In that case I would propose slightly altering the intro to somehow express Ashevieres hope that Defaldor won´t kill Eldred (perhaps as regret in hindsight, I can´t really imagine her telling him all that in detail) as it is probably not an intuitive point for most people but important to develope her as loving him instead of discarding him.

I´m out for a couple of days now, looking forward to whatever discussions I will see upon my return :D
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 17th, 2015, 10:17 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote:I actually meant to say that it was me who came up with that idea as it seems I overlooked your earlier point and reinvented it
At this point, it very well could be and I'm getting it all confused, so I will happily concede it was your idea. It's reached the point of melding as to who said what. :lol:
Whiskeyjack wrote:Do we take the pro-Eldred version for granted now (however it is implemented)? I count 4.5 to zero votes to do this (including you and zookeeper). In that case I would propose slightly altering the intro to somehow express Ashevieres hope that Defaldor won´t kill Eldred (perhaps as regret in hindsight, I can´t really imagine her telling him all that in detail) as it is probably not an intuitive point for most people but important to develope her as loving him instead of discarding him.
That sounds like a plan, I will work on altering it a bit to show more remorse/grief on her part over his death.
Whiskeyjack wrote:I´m out for a couple of days now, looking forward to whatever discussions I will see upon my return
Ah okay, we will catch you when you get back!
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

name
Posts: 336
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by name » September 17th, 2015, 11:38 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote: In that case I would propose slightly altering the intro to somehow express Ashevieres hope that Defaldor won´t kill Eldred.
Well if we go back to her instructions to him on killing Delfador:

"On the eve of battle, Eldred scanned the loyalist army with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: “Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders."

It sounds like she is telling him not to take any unnecessary risks fighting nonessential targets and save all his strength for Delfador. That is good advice, but apparently not good enough. It could be she just greatly underestimated Delfador due to his age or had never seen him in action and thought he was some kind of pretender orbiting the throne, much like she was.


But if she should have known better, then I think this can be cleared up by simply enhancing her advice to Eldred. Something like:

"Stay yourself from the fight until your champions have worn through the old mage, then deprive him of his head."
or
"Remain within your vanguard until the old mage has committed to the fight, then from behind deprive him of his head." (back stab)
or
"Give the old mage not a moment for breath, with your ferocity alone you must break him." (berserk)

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

Post by Turuk » September 18th, 2015, 10:56 am

I like your first suggestion, and I altered the following passage as well to make it fit better.

Code: Select all

    [part]
        story= _ "On the eve of battle, Eldred scanned the loyalist army with his mother’s advice ringing in his ears: <i>“Fight no one great or small except the old mage, whose head should be severed from his shoulders.”</i>"
        background=story/httt_story4.jpg
    [/part]
    [part]
        story= _ "Offering a hundred gold pieces to whomever killed Delfador, Eldred watched his men ferociously attack the old man. When he sensed the old mage was weakening, Eldred sought out Delfador on the battlefield. Sword clashed against staff, as the wise old mage fought the brash young warrior."
        background=story/httt_story5.jpg
    [/part]
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

Post Reply