Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

[TheGreatRings]

That:
1. The writer of HttT set up a lead-in for another campaign to be written in the future, possibly by someone else.
2. The person who took up said task totally spaced on the fact Konrad was supposed to play a role of some kind.

Perhaps, but that doesn't address the actual issue now, which is what it means in the story.

Because every mainline campaign largely follows the same game play formula of the player starting out with a small group of inexperienced units and slowly building a large persistent army over the course of many, necessarily time limited, scenarios. This is in turn is because certain interlocking campaign game play features established early on put limits on what kind of stories could be told and what kind of combat situations could be represented easily. Plus the AI has only recently started to become intelligent and customizable.

That might explain why the dwarves cannot be so powerful early on in NR, though the dwarves being that weak vanishes fairly fast in NR.

It needs a justification in the story, though. But I can see the dwarves getting weaker between HttT and NR.

But we need an explanation for why Konrad doesn't help out the dwarves, if they're a large part of his army.

It is an issue that could be fixed, with you having, per your example, an entire dwarven army at your disposal from the first scenario of a campaign. But it is another major undertaking that would have to be thoughtfully planned and executed, one campaign at a time.

Hardly what I was suggesting.

[zookeeper]

Taking away Asheviere´s magic would mean that scenario 4 of Liberty would have to be changed.

I've seen that mentioned a few times, and I don't see why. Nothing in the dialogue of that scenario suggests that she personally had anything to do with it. Upon closer look, it's even very ambiguous which side they fought on:

"We are accursed. We were once under the command of Prince Eldred, the King’s son and betrayer. The price for our treason is this hellish existence. We know not who or what inflicted this curse upon us, but our mortal deaths may be only the beginning of the penance we are doomed to pay."

Treason for joining Eldred and betraying the actual king, or for somehow failing Eldred or Asheviere later? That he calls Eldred "betrayer" would imply the former, in which case the curse would be by someone from the Garard-loyalist side (if we assume it was by a person). Delfador?

[Whiskeyjack]

Treason for joining Eldred and betraying the actual king, or for somehow failing Eldred or Asheviere later? That he calls Eldred "betrayer" would imply the former, in which case the curse would be by someone from the Garard-loyalist side (if we assume it was by a person). Delfador?

Seems I got that wrong, sorry. Why I got it that way is that it seemed to me like the squad was sent to their death (hehe ) by Asheviere to get rid of any witnesses of Eldreds betrayal (thus comming from the queens side). Simply murdering them all would be too suspicious, so why not send them against her fiercest adversaries in Wesnoth?
I don´t think such an act would fit Defaldor, not even in his sudden anger upon the attack.
But that opens up the question: Who did curse them and why?

[name]

That:
1. The writer of HttT set up a lead-in for another campaign to be written in the future, possibly by someone else.
2. The person who took up said task totally spaced on the fact Konrad was supposed to play a role of some kind.

Perhaps, but that doesn't address the actual issue now, which is what it means in the story.

It does address the issue. There is an oversight in the writing of NR that should be corrected at some point, either by having Konrad show up and play a role (preferable) or by the Dwarven Doors community handling matters long before he has a chance to (easier). Perhaps even Li'sar, with her expeditionary force following the rebels, slaughters the occupying orcs along the way and that starts off the Dwarven Doors revolution immediately.

But it has no bearing on Konrad's character (which is being rewritten now anyway).

[Whiskeyjack]

It does address the issue. There is an oversight in the writing of NR that should be corrected at some point, either by having Konrad show up and play a role (preferable) or by the Dwarven Doors community handling matters long before he has a chance to (easier). Perhaps even Li'sar, with her expeditionary force following the rebels, slaughters the occupying orcs along the way and that starts off the Dwarven Doors revolution immediately.

But it has no bearing on Konrad's character (which is being rewritten now anyway).

Well, since we are doing big changes to HttT anyway, there is nothing stopping us from cutting/changing that line or to mention in the epilogue something about the time it took them to consolidate their rule and that - once they started turning their attention outside of their realm - the rebellion in the North was already over. (My personal favourite would be to do this, but say the rebellion was already under way and have a Wesnothian army show up for the last battle in NR or something along those lines.)
It is important that Konrad does not play too big a role, because otherwise the Dwarven Doors people would just be returned to the realm and there would have never been a Northern Alliance.

I´m strongly against moving big events (like the start of NR) in the timeline.

Edit: Why would it be preferable to have Wesnothians show up because of one declaration to-be-changed-childish-Konrad uttered to people while driving by?

[name]

Well, since we are doing big changes to HttT anyway, there is nothing stopping us from cutting/changing that line or to mention in the epilogue something about the time it took them to consolidate their rule and that - once they started turning their attention outside of their realm - the rebellion in the North was already over.

Li'sar is heir apparent, so there is no real consolidating to do. Only restructuring corrupt parts of the military and handling little matters Asheviere couldn't be bothered with. But 16 years seems a long time to be "too busy".

Simply cutting the line would be a quick and clear fix, though.

I´m strongly against moving big events (like the start of NR) in the timeline.

In this particular case it seems like a small change.

Why would it be preferable to have Wesnothians show up because of one declaration to-be-changed-childish-Konrad uttered to people while driving by?

Since Dwarven Doors is an independent entity like Elensfar, it is not actually necessary for them to do so (although it does connect them to their Dwarven allies and trading partners, so it may be more strategically important than Elensfar?)

But since Li'sar and Konrad are supposed to be admirable rulers of the strongest kingdom in the land, since said kingdom is adjacent to the Northlands, since Northlanders played a small but beneficial role in their rise to power and since orcs are a common enemy (perhaps the only enemy left for Wesnoth to deal with at this time)... they have reason to show up for a battle or two. Returning characters also help connect the campaigns, story lines and inhabitants of Wesnoth's world, to make it feel more like there is some underlying narrative.

Plus we did as players, spend a couple dozen scenarios installing them to power, the least they could do is give us a hand in a later campaign.

[Whiskeyjack]

Li'sar is heir apparent, so there is no real consolidating to do. Only restructuring corrupt parts of the military and handling little matters Asheviere couldn't be bothered with. But 16 years seems a long time to be "too busy".

There could be Asheviere-loyal people left. There were undead ranging in Wesnoth (scenario 9). There might still be bands of orcs Asheviere hired ranging through the lands. This alone does not justify 16 years, but Wesnoth just had a civil war. Perhaps the army was weakened too much, for them to feel comfortable attacking the orcs on their home turf (remember the forces the orcs bring to the table in NR).

In this particular case it seems like a small change.

I retract my statement somewhat. I still don´t think it´s a small change, but I would agree with you for NR reasons: It always felt strange, that the fire of rebellion Konrad kindled would smolder for 16! years before breaking out. You´d expect by that time it would be something only teenagers dreamed of and old men grumbled about. Somewhere about 2-4 years later would seem fine IMO.

Since Dwarven Doors is an independent entity like Elensfar, it is not actually necessary for them to do so (although it does connect them to their Dwarven allies and trading partners, so it may be more strategically important than Elensfar?)

But since Li'sar and Konrad are supposed to be admirable rulers of the strongest kingdom in the land, since said kingdom is adjacent to the Northlands, since Northlanders played a small but beneficial role in their rise to power and since orcs are a common enemy (perhaps the only enemy left for Wesnoth to deal with at this time)... they have reason to show up for a battle or two. Returning characters also help connect the campaigns, story lines and inhabitants of Wesnoth's world, to make it feel more like there is some underlying narrative.

Plus we did as players, spend a couple dozen scenarios installing them to power, the least they could do is give us a hand in a later campaign.

Alright, those are a couple good reasons. Could still be circumvented by the above mentioned weakened army state and should not play to big a role because as I said it would make the whole scenario of the NA founding strange if Wesnoth was too strongly involved. But I start to like the idea even more to have them come in somewhere towards the end.
(It would need careful consideration regarding the Lintanir elves though. Depending on how those scenarios go in the HttT rework, it might get difficult with the two different routes for Elenia...)

And with that we are back on topic: Turuk, considering the long-liveliness of elves, the elvish characters from NR should (at least some of them) be considered/included/mentioned in HttT when they reach Lintanir and vice versa the elves of the council in NR.
Not to mention the inconsistencies regarding the different forms of government: HttT displays Lintanir with some kind of nobles council like it is the case for Wesmere as well, while NR includes an elvish princess which suggests some kind of royalty (on the other hand, nobody has a problem with the princess´ sister behaving completely un-royal and vanishing into the wilderness for years (decades?)...)

[TheGreatRings]

It does address the issue. There is an oversight in the writing of NR that should be corrected at some point, either by having Konrad show up and play a role (preferable)

That's a fairly major change to NR that we're talking about. Although it makes a certain amount of sense. Revolts have benefitted from support by foreign countries, including the American Revolution.

or by the Dwarven Doors community handling matters long before he has a chance to (easier). Perhaps even Li'sar, with her expeditionary force following the rebels, slaughters the occupying orcs along the way and that starts off the Dwarven Doors revolution immediately.

Again, a major change (to both the campaign and the time line in this case). It could also make the first scenario of NR a lot easier, and diminish its protagonists' triumph.

I therefore must strongly oppose this.

But it has no bearing on Konrad's character (which is being rewritten now anyway).

It does as long as the issue of why Good King Konrad didn't help out his northern allies is hanging over us.

[TheGreatRings]

Well, since we are doing big changes to HttT anyway, there is nothing stopping us from cutting/changing that line or to mention in the epilogue something about the time it took them to consolidate their rule and that - once they started turning their attention outside of their realm - the rebellion in the North was already over.

That is a very simple fix.

That or, as I suggested earlier, having someone in NR send a request to Wesnoth for help and be told that Wesnoth can't aid them because (insert reasons here).

(My personal favourite would be to do this, but say the rebellion was already under way and have a Wesnothian army show up for the last battle in NR or something along those lines.)

Intriguing, but problematic for at least two reasons.

1. Contradicts the time line, which says that the period of NR was peaceful for Wesnoth.
2. Could diminish the significance of the player/heroes of NR, at least unless Wesnoth's assistance is fairly minor.

The fan in me would like to see Konrad and/or Li'sar have a cameo in NR. The writer in me says it may not be a good idea. On the other hand, no Wesnothian involvement strains credulity.

It is important that Konrad does not play too big a role, because otherwise the Dwarven Doors people would just be returned to the realm and there would have never been a Northern Alliance.

Um, was Dwarves Doors ever part of Wesnoth? I got the impression that it was an independent settlement.

I´m strongly against moving big events (like the start of NR) in the timeline.

Ditto, at least unless there's a really good reason for it (say, the timeline itself being in violation of continuity).

Edit: Why would it be preferable to have Wesnothians show up because of one declaration to-be-changed-childish-Konrad uttered to people while driving by?

Fair point, though their are other reasons for Wesnoth to be involved. The notion that any significant nation (which Wesnoth appears to be) would not be involved in a major war near its territory (Dwarves Doors and Knalga are just north of Wesnoth) that includes past allies (including dwarves and elves) and enemies (orcs, undead) that takes place in close proximity to a potential major trade route (the river and Abez) boggles the mind.

Of course, we once more run into time line problems if Wesnoth is involved.

Edit: Also, I believe someone raised the idea of incorporating some elves from NR into HttT in Lintanir? I quite like this. Don't make a big deal out of it. Just a subtle bit of continuity for fans to appreciate.

Though if you do want to give any of them a bigger role, here's a thought- As I recall, the main elvish lady in NR is sometimes quite hostile (anti-human?), so have her argue against helping Konrad and Li'sar, and be overruled. This would reinforce that the elves don't all think in lockstep but are a diverse people, and show character growth between two campaigns.

Not really a necessary change, and I'm hesitant to suggest major unnecessary changes, but thought I'd toss out the idea regardless.

[name]

And with that we are back on topic: Turuk, considering the long-liveliness of elves, the elvish characters from NR should (at least some of them) be considered/included/mentioned in HttT when they reach Lintanir and vice versa the elves of the council in NR.

It is similarly odd there is no Kalenz in NR. This is worth noting for any future work on NR.

Not to mention the inconsistencies regarding the different forms of government: HttT displays Lintanir with some kind of nobles council like it is the case for Wesmere as well, while NR includes an elvish princess which suggests some kind of royalty (on the other hand, nobody has a problem with the princess´ sister behaving completely un-royal and vanishing into the wilderness for years (decades?)...)

The concept of elvish royalty is probably another oversight on the part of NR, since elvish societies seem to consistently be ruled by a council in other campaigns as you said. And a council rather than a monarchy helps make them a bit more unique.

[TheGreatRings]

And with that we are back on topic: Turuk, considering the long-liveliness of elves, the elvish characters from NR should (at least some of them) be considered/included/mentioned in HttT when they reach Lintanir and vice versa the elves of the council in NR.

It is similarly odd there is no Kalenz in NR. This is worth noting for any future work on NR.

Not to mention the inconsistencies regarding the different forms of government: HttT displays Lintanir with some kind of nobles council like it is the case for Wesmere as well, while NR includes an elvish princess which suggests some kind of royalty (on the other hand, nobody has a problem with the princess´ sister behaving completely un-royal and vanishing into the wilderness for years (decades?)...)

The concept of elvish royalty is probably another oversight on the part of NR, since elvish societies seem to consistently be ruled by a council in other campaigns as you said. And a council rather than a monarchy helps make them a bit more unique.

The two systems aren't necessarily contradictory. You could have a monarch with limited power (like Britain). Also, not sure if anyone's raised these points yet, but their appear to be at least three somewhat distinct elvish enclaves (Aethenwood, Lintanir, and Wesmere), so perhaps each group of elves has its own nobility and the leaders of each faction form a council. Or perhaps the council is comprised of the elvish nobility.

[Whiskeyjack]

It is similarly odd there is no Kalenz in NR. This is worth noting for any future work on NR.

Acutally it isn´t. Firstly, if I remember correctly Kalenz went into his second (third?) and final retirement after HttT and secondly he is first and foremost a Wesmere elf, while the elves of NR are exclusively Lintanir elves. Not strange at all, that he would not even have heard of the events until they were over. The truly strange thing is that the Wesmere elves do not show up or get at least a mention. It´s like Wesmere were the forest far away from Knalga, not Lintanir...

Regarding the form of government: I think a council fits better for elves because they are a free spirited, less strictly organized people. But on the other hand, having different kinds of ruling bodies for the different elvish enclaves would actually work to give them some distinction. Wesnoth is relatively young - it was founded after the humans under Haldric arrived, but the elves lived there for a very very long time. Wouldn´t it be strange if there never happened any sepparations and they where still one nation? Having a strong alliance is one thing, but I´d like to pick up on the diversity inside the elvish ranks (and HttT is the best place for this, because all elves are involved). Also, there have to be other elves in the unexplored lands and most times elves show up as enemies, they come from some smaller enclaves that don´t seem directly connected to one of the three big forests.

Anyway, finding some decisions on the elvish matters (characters as well as ruling form and affiliation between the groups) is quite important for the rework, as it would impact pretty much everything from scenario 1 onward. Continuity with NR is another matter that only follows later on.

[TheGreatRings]

About elves being free spirited and less organized... is that actually supported by existing campaigns? It seems like a generalization one might make about elves, but I'm not sure the evidence actually supports it.

And a council isn't necessarily less authoritarian than a monarchy. A small council ruling with an iron fist could easily be more oppressive than a constitutional monarchy with limited power.

Just pointing out different possible options.

[UK1]

About elves being free spirited and less organized... is that actually supported by existing campaigns? It seems like a generalization one might make about elves, but I'm not sure the evidence actually supports it.

And a council isn't necessarily less authoritarian than a monarchy. A small council ruling with an iron fist could easily be more oppressive than a constitutional monarchy with limited power.

Just pointing out different possible options.

I agree about your first sentence. Wesnoth elves are Tolkien elves with a slightly different flavor. They're equally rigid in social structure, but appear to be more militaristic. They go out of their way to challenge orcs/dwarves on numerous occasions for pretty much no good reason. Whereas Tolkien elves were very much all about "Stay out of our forests and we won't kill you." They're not free spirits by any stretch of the imagination. And we have to remember that during the Rebellion (in which all of Wesnoth's Default faction is set) some elves did stay loyal to the crown/alliance (at least I believe, it's been a while).

And I agree with what people are saying about Li'sar being heir and thus her actions being questionable. She really had no reason to join Konrad unless she thought he could win without her help. How much more time did her mother really have? She couldn't have been young by that point and Li'sar was already taking a lot of the responsibilities of ruling. She was going to be queen and ruler in her own right. By backing Konrad's claim she is literally tossing her own claim aside in favor of his. It does need to be fleshed out a bit more.

[TheGreatRings]

Actually, Wesnoth elves are quite different from Tolkien elves. They're not immortal, for one, as I recall (though I suppose I could be wrong about that- I don't recall a source).

Also, the multiplayer factions have very little to do with the campaign stories, and to the best of my knowledge, no elves supported Ashevier.

As to Li'sar, you appear to be assuming that she would join Konrad only out of self-interest. Other motivations are possible.