SPOILER ALERT: Ockward's story for his UMC

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SPOILER ALERT: Ockward's story for his UMC

Postby Ockward » August 28th, 2013, 7:18 am

Hello Wesnoth Forums!

It's been a long time since I last dared show my face around here, and so, when i've now hit a wall, it seems i need your help.

The only other forum this thread could possibly fit in (I think) would be the Writer's Forum, but since this (probably) isn't about creating lore, the Off-Topic-Forum seems to be best siuted to hold this thread(to me). On to the real topic.

So... i've decided to make my own campaign for the game and would like to add vampires to it, and since i'll be aiming for a quality greater than mainline (hoping that i'll land somewhere in the mainline area), I would like to know what the mainline concept for vampires is, and yes, they exist in mainline, although there is currently only a single vampire (AFAIK) and it resided on an island where it was killed (was it? I really don't remember :hmm: ) by Haldric during The Rise Of Wesnoth.

Also...:
Last edited by Ockward on September 21st, 2013, 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby zookeeper » August 28th, 2013, 8:39 am

That TRoW scenario is the only mainline one where a vampire is ever seen, mentioned, referred or alluded to. So, not much there, I'm afraid.

Personally, I'd rather not see a race of vampires as such but instead keep them as rare unique creations. While even liches are dime a dozen in Wesnoth, vampires are really really rarely seen; whatever is required to create one must therefore include something outside the usual necromantic curriculum.

Random idea(s):
* Instead of being purely undead creatures, they're more of a hybrid of necromancy and arcane/faerie/blood/runic/whatever magic.
* A vampire is created by heavily bastardizing faerie magic and only an elf can become one.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Midnight_Carnival » August 28th, 2013, 9:14 am

<aside: he probably doesn't realise how close to the truth he's come>

As for vamps in vanilla wesnoth - even in TRoW, she is presented as a creature of myth, something they didn't expect to find, normally only in stories. A race of vampires would probably not be included simply becasue there was one already in a popular add on and none of the units were ever seriously considered for mainline (as far as I'm aware). I'm happy to see the vampire lady as an unexpected supprise in the christmas stocking. We could have a vampire race, but there is still room for different races of elves, dwarves, humans, etc... Oh, did I forget hordes of insectile warriors? silly me :mrgreen: and the fungus people :twisted: vampires, if mainstream, would likley be a monster, like the dragon or giant spider. They are not common in Wesnoth, adding them would require major rewrite of many plots.
For UMC or add on, I fully support them and wish there were more.

<goes back to play legacy of kain soul reaver on the emulator>
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Blarumyrran » August 28th, 2013, 10:15 am

Midnight_Carnival wrote:We could have a vampire race, but there is still room for different races of elves, dwarves, humans, etc...


I think that's a very wrong perspective - new "factions" for elves/dwarfs/humans wouldn't be very useful, rather what would be great would be a bunch more units who would blend in into the elf/dwarf/human recruit rosters made up of the current mp-based factions - like how the Thug (no longer a mp unit) fits into the outlaw-human roster nicely as a campaign unit (although it's a dull unit for lack of special abilities on any level :| ). So eg in a campaign where you fight elves who live near a great sea or river, you'd fight some set of the usual elf units plus Elf Fishers who throw nets at you. The idea of the Elf Fisher would be general and wouldn't be tied to a particular "culture" or "subrace".
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Ockward » August 28th, 2013, 10:21 am

zookeeper wrote:That TRoW scenario is the only mainline one where a vampire is ever seen, mentioned, referred or alluded to. So, not much there, I'm afraid.

Personally, I'd rather not see a race of vampires as such but instead keep them as rare unique creations. While even liches are dime a dozen in Wesnoth, vampires are really really rarely seen; whatever is required to create one must therefore include something outside the usual necromantic curriculum.

Random idea(s):
* Instead of being purely undead creatures, they're more of a hybrid of necromancy and arcane/faerie/blood/runic/whatever magic.
* A vampire is created by heavily bastardizing faerie magic and only an elf can become one.


Just in case someone does not want to be spoiled:


Nothing to add on the other two posts though, but keep up the good posting! :D
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Jeffers0n » August 28th, 2013, 3:13 pm

Spoiler:


Edit: put the text in spoiler brackets
Last edited by Jeffers0n on August 28th, 2013, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Ockward » August 28th, 2013, 4:40 pm

Jeffers0n wrote:
Spoiler:


You could've put that in a spoiler... (dramatic silence) but that is a great idéa! :D
Many thanks, friend of friends! (I can call you that, right?)
*waiting for mainline approvement* :P

also...i would really like it if the campaign could possibly unfold...*ding* nvm, got it covered.
And if anyone wondered...:


EDIT: Also, this thread now tends to look loke a thread that would belong to the writer's forum, since we basically now are creating lore(as it seems to me now)

EDIT2: Thanks for hearing me out, big thumbs up!
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Tonepoet » August 28th, 2013, 6:17 pm

I'm afraid I can't help very much since I generally stick to default era multiplayer, where such units don't exist. I've dabbled with some add-ons so I'm aware the Vampire Lady was mainline at least at one point and currently has a different, more detailed than it used to have never gave very much in the way of general lore. I thought it was removed, since I vaguely recollect several multiplayer scenarios breaking as a result but perhaps not? That having been said elaboration upon the race is sorely needed if its to be used as the focal point of any sort of scenario. As such the rest of this post will be speculative.

I agree that they should be considered rare if they'd only been seen in one scenario so far. I'd imagine the reason they're rare, assuming they possess the traits of classic lore, isn't so much because they're hard to produce but rather since nobody wants to make any.

Vampires are generally depicted as having considerably more free will than your typical undead abominations, which could make them impossible to control in the same way as the more typical mindless automations like a walking corpse, a skeleton or a bound spirit. Also while Wesnoth's Necromancers are an experimentative bunch vying for immortality, not every one of their accomplishments needs to be considered a success. Anybody who tried to become one may've met a premature end due to the plethora of weaknesses, such as a heightened weakness to sunlight, blood starvation, garlic poisoning et cetera. Liches, while less attractive, are the favored or refined fate since they avoid such weaknesses. A lich may even be a bit of refinement upon a vampire to reduce their weaknesses, for instance their lack of flesh might be so they don't need to maintain it with blood as par the older vampire lady description, albeit that's getting a bit ahead the issue. Regardless, the point is under such circumstances Necromatic vampirism would've become a lost art of a bygone era, due to lacking a truly suitable application.

Vampires themselves may retrain the trait further propagate their kind through a bite, via special viral venom deployed via their fangs that needn't necessarily be transferred via normal puncture suckling this would allow them to have a separate attack with the Plague special should future units ever be needed. However not only would it only make a potential rival of heightened power but further propagation of their kind would make them conspicuous, causing it to needlessly difficult to feed on the informed and giving rise to specialized vampire hunters threatening their personal safety. Furthermore, unlike Dragons who have Drakes as plentiful descendants, being already dead would've naturally killed their instinctual desire to procreate allowing the Vampires to be as rare if not even rarer, allowing them to view the matter with a more logical type of foresight. As such they would probably reserve the ability for particular targets they wish to keep around or to spite their killers with the kind of fate of they'd least desire, since they would no longer need to be concerned about future safety in their final death throes.

I think this sort of explanation fits in better with our current understanding of Wesnoth's lore and perhaps importantly, provides a a race neutral explanation of their rarity which is important to insert them in a variety of circumstances as needed by the plot. This is especially so when you consider that its usually the humans who dabble in necromancy, as opposed to elves or dwarves, since the Adept line is thus-so-far strictly human and their involvement would be likely, if not necessary as a point of origin. Even moreso since the one vampire we know about so far is likely human and tied to the Wesfolk since she interacted with Haldric in The Rise of Wesnoth (which I admittedly, haven't played past the first scenario since I don't usually play campaigns...)
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Ockward » August 28th, 2013, 7:30 pm

Tonepoet wrote:I'm afraid I can't help very much since I generally stick to default era multiplayer, where such units don't exist. I've dabbled with some add-ons so I'm aware the Vampire Lady was mainline at least at one point and currently has a different, more detailed than it used to have never gave very much in the way of general lore. I thought it was removed, since I vaguely recollect several multiplayer scenarios breaking as a result but perhaps not? That having been said elaboration upon the race is sorely needed if its to be used as the focal point of any sort of scenario. As such the rest of this post will be speculative.

I agree that they should be considered rare if they'd only been seen in one scenario so far. I'd imagine the reason they're rare, assuming they possess the traits of classic lore, isn't so much because they're hard to produce but rather since nobody wants to make any.

Vampires are generally depicted as having considerably more free will than your typical undead abominations, which could make them impossible to control in the same way as the more typical mindless automations like a walking corpse, a skeleton or a bound spirit. Also while Wesnoth's Necromancers are an experimentative bunch vying for immortality, not every one of their accomplishments needs to be considered a success. Anybody who tried to become one may've met a premature end due to the plethora of weaknesses, such as a heightened weakness to sunlight, blood starvation, garlic poisoning et cetera. Liches, while less attractive, are the favored or refined fate since they avoid such weaknesses. A lich may even be a bit of refinement upon a vampire to reduce their weaknesses, for instance their lack of flesh might be so they don't need to maintain it with blood as par the older vampire lady description, albeit that's getting a bit ahead the issue. Regardless, the point is under such circumstances Necromatic vampirism would've become a lost art of a bygone era, due to lacking a truly suitable application.

Vampires themselves may retrain the trait further propagate their kind through a bite, via special viral venom deployed via their fangs that needn't necessarily be transferred via normal puncture suckling this would allow them to have a separate attack with the Plague special should future units ever be needed. However not only would it only make a potential rival of heightened power but further propagation of their kind would make them conspicuous, causing it to needlessly difficult to feed on the informed and giving rise to specialized vampire hunters threatening their personal safety. Furthermore, unlike Dragons who have Drakes as plentiful descendants, being already dead would've naturally killed their instinctual desire to procreate allowing the Vampires to be as rare if not even rarer, allowing them to view the matter with a more logical type of foresight. As such they would probably reserve the ability for particular targets they wish to keep around or to spite their killers with the kind of fate of they'd least desire, since they would no longer need to be concerned about future safety in their final death throes.


Yes... what you've written makes sense, and (as far as I can see) it does not interfere with mainline lore in such a way that it would need to change the lore for it to be valid.
I definitely do like this speculation, and i hope all these things are enough to work with.

I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your supportiveness; I would've been stuck where i was this mornig for an unknown time had i not recieved your help.
Once again, Thank you all! :mrgreen:
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Midnight_Carnival » August 29th, 2013, 10:43 am

Blarumyrran wrote:
Midnight_Carnival wrote:We could have a vampire race, but there is still room for different races of elves, dwarves, humans, etc...


I think that's a very wrong perspective - new "factions" for elves/dwarfs/humans wouldn't be very useful, rather what would be great would be a bunch more units who would blend in into the elf/dwarf/human recruit rosters made up of the current mp-based factions - like how the Thug (no longer a mp unit) fits into the outlaw-human roster nicely as a campaign unit (although it's a dull unit for lack of special abilities on any level :| ). So eg in a campaign where you fight elves who live near a great sea or river, you'd fight some set of the usual elf units plus Elf Fishers who throw nets at you. The idea of the Elf Fisher would be general and wouldn't be tied to a particular "culture" or "subrace".


How please can a perspective be "wrong"? although I agree with what you say mostly, the point I was trying to make is that there is ample room for expansion without adding new races who would need storylines, etc to fit in.
I also like the idea of making units below and above the levels of units which appear in vanill-ok in Mainline Wesnoth, as say level 2, but don't level up - eg: the Chocobone - but I prefer that for UMCs and add ons. I personally favor the "it's complex, involving dark magic, etc... " eplaination of making little vampires over the viral one (not a fan of that outside Wesnoth either!) I started writing a story once in which vampires were humans who were operated on and partially under the control of a strain of nano-machines, but that is for a very dark and stormy night indeed. For Wesnoth, I think it's better that they are rare and difficult to make. If everybody loves the virus idea, make it fatal to 99% of those it infects perhaps.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Blarumyrran » August 29th, 2013, 12:27 pm

Midnight_Carnival wrote:How please can a perspective be "wrong"?

Spoiler:
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Jeffers0n » August 29th, 2013, 2:41 pm

because they're hard to produce but rather since nobody wants to make any.

It's extremely unlikely that there was only one created if the means to do so where around for ages. Also if Haldric and his people didn't believe it was a Vampire(It's been some time since I played TRoW) then why didn't the Wesfolk tell them about them? They used Necromancy long before they came to the Green Isle.
It also seems unlikely that nobody wants to make any Vampires, because they could go into a city pretending they were humans and then open the gates from within. I Also think biting someone and turning him into a minion is a lot faster and easier than somehow killing the Iron Mauler and then raising him as an Undead
Vampires are generally depicted as having considerably more free will than your typical undead abominations, which could make them impossible to control in the same way as the more typical mindless automations like a walking corpse, a skeleton or a bound spirit.

So what? Dark Adepts have a free will as well and they are also in the Undead army. I can imagine some Dark Adepts would gladly have themselves transformed into Vampires because they are stronger.
Vampires themselves may retrain the trait further propagate their kind through a bite, via special viral venom deployed via their fangs that needn't necessarily be transferred via normal puncture suckling this would allow them to have a separate attack with the Plague special should future units ever be needed. However not only would it only make a potential rival of heightened power but further propagation of their kind would make them conspicuous

I like to think Vampires don't just turn the victim into a Vampire, they drain the lifeforce and the free will out of their victims, turning them into undead under their command.
Even moreso since the one vampire we know about so far is likely human and tied to the Wesfolk since she interacted with Haldric in The Rise of Wesnoth (which I admittedly, haven't played past the first scenario since I don't usually play campaigns...)

I think she just interacted with Haldric because she read the scenario objectives and knew that if she could kill the enemy leader she would win.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Ockward » August 29th, 2013, 4:37 pm

Jeffers0n wrote:I like to think Vampires don't just turn the victim into a Vampire, they drain the lifeforce and the free will out of their victims, turning them into undead under their command.


That's a really good take on the plague-like ability of a vampire... and it may be the most acceptable by mainline... and if that's the case... it'll be another hurdle for me to get past... unless... *spider man-meme-face*...

(Imagine it as if I called on a waiter :P )
Uuum, anyone from mainline lore development? Could you please add that kind of plague-thingey to the properties of the vampires? (yes, there may be no vampires, but there also may be a few)
I would definitely appreciate it if you would, since that would grant me the ability to keep aiming for a great quality for my campaign-in-development.
It would make me gravely grateful.
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Jeffers0n » August 29th, 2013, 5:55 pm

Uuum, anyone from mainline lore development? Could you please add that kind of plague-thingy to the properties of the vampires? (yes, there may be no vampires, but there also may be a few)

Why should they? there is currently only one Vampire in mainline, and she seems to have quite some Undead at her disposal. Perhaps she thinks she doesn't need more minions, or she can't control more undead or she doesn't use her ability for some other reason.
I can't wait for the campaign to be created, I have always liked Vampires(except the Twilight ones) and other monsters :twisted:
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Re: What does Mainline know about Vampires?

Postby Ockward » August 29th, 2013, 6:24 pm

This will just be an Off-Topic-post, so disregard it at your leisure unless you've nicknamed yourself "Jeffers0n". :P
...Excluding the very last part, which has some importance...

Jeffers0n wrote:I can't wait for the campaign to be created, I have always liked Vampires(except the Twilight ones) and other monsters :twisted:


I am really sorry for telling you this, but it had to be done...
The campaign currently only has the first scenario or the intro (depending on what works best) done... story-wise... on paper... although i have some inprinted idéas in my brain that tells me how the story should unfold (although none on the ending, yet [DO NOT MOCK ME BY JOKING ABOUT HOW IT SHOULD END, THE GODS OF IMMORTALITY WILL SMITE YOU, RESULTING IN YOU BEING UNABLE TO REACH IMMORTALITY IN YOUR NEXT LIFE, SO DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!! :evil: ] )
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