Some questions about orcish society

[Dugi]

I want the last part of my campaign to be mostly about orcs, but there isn't much information about orcs around. Son of the Black Eye didn't tell much except for the information about their secret shamans. So, I would like to ask some questions about orcish society in order to avoid having to make up some answers myself that might clash with other (UMC) campaigns' lore.

1. How do the orcs behave towards strangers? If a group of humans or elves comes to them without hostile intentions in times when neither humans nor elves are enemies, how will they greet them?

2. How intelligent they really are? The orcs didn't seem to be stupid, they were uncivilised, violent, selfish, dirty, malevolent, treacherous and war-loving. It was suggested that slurbows were their own invention, although humans thought they had stolen them (although no other races use them). Their swords and fiery arrows don't look like something primitive as well.

3. They seem to have three categories, orcs (grunts and so), lesser orcs (archers, assassins) and goblins. But Grunts are strangely cheaper than Archers or Assassins, and Archers seem to become big orcs when they advance to Crossbowmen. Maybe the archers are just orcs who were too young when the war started. How is it?

4. Female orcs were never mentioned. Are they undistinguishable from males to humans like the naga and nagini (same brute-like creatures, breasts concealed by massive muscles, a bit less grumbing voice that humans won't recognise)? Are the smaller orcs like assassins female orcs? Or are they always hidden somewhere (this sounds improbable, because some war-loving barbarians in history, like Scythians, actually had female warriors, and orcs are surely more war-loving than some Scythians)? Or are the orcs hermaphrodites?

5. What kind of magic do their shamans do and how important is it for them?

6. They seem to be different from the so-called barbarians from history. Barbarians were usually quite honest and didn't fight other members of their tribe (unlike in more advanced societies, where fights for power were usual). They even treated the weak and women properly, unlike in medieval or today's strongly muslim countries. Their main problem was that they didn't see the ones who spoke weird languages and looked slightly differently as humans. Are wesnoth's orcs a reference to something external that has more information about them? Orcs from D&D or Lord of the Rings were much more stupid and orcs from The Elder Scrolls weren't evil.

7. Looking at the map from SotBE, what the hell are steppes doing there? Steppes aren't located north from all forests, there are usually in mild climate, south from usual coniferous forests. Steppes are in Hungary, southern Ukraine, southern Russia, in USA (where they're called prairies, but they shouldn't be much different from standard European steppes) but not in Canada, and in Argentina (where they are called pampas, as far as I know). Endless grasslands on the far north (northern Russia, northern Norway, Svalbard, Greenland, northern Canada, Alaska or nothern Antarctica) are called tundra.

[zookeeper]

1. How do the orcs behave towards strangers? If a group of humans or elves comes to them without hostile intentions in times when neither humans nor elves are enemies, how will they greet them?

Most likely depends on the orcs, ranging from attacking on sight to granting them some mild hospitality. Of course, in the latter case they'd expect to gain something from it, whether a good bargain, important information or an ally.

2. How intelligent they really are? The orcs didn't seem to be stupid, they were uncivilised, violent, selfish, dirty, malevolent, treacherous and war-loving. It was suggested that slurbows were their own invention, although humans thought they had stolen them (although no other races use them). Their swords and fiery arrows don't look like something primitive as well.

On average? More intelligent than trolls, less intelligent than humans. I'd like to think that they have about the same intellectual capacity than any other race, but that their nature and society simply favor a straightforward brute force approach to most things, so relatively few orcs (mostly leaders) get to really hone their intelligence.

4. Female orcs were never mentioned. Are they undistinguishable from males to humans like the naga and nagini (same brute-like creatures, breasts concealed by massive muscles, a bit less grumbing voice that humans won't recognise)? Are the smaller orcs like assassins female orcs? Or are they always hidden somewhere (this sounds improbable, because some war-loving barbarians in history, like Scythians, actually had female warriors, and orcs are surely more war-loving than some Scythians)? Or are the orcs hermaphrodites?

Mostly indistinquishable from males, I'd say.

[alluton]

7. Looking at the map from SotBE, what the hell are steppes doing there? Steppes aren't located north from all forests, there are usually in mild climate, south from usual coniferous forests. Steppes are in Hungary, southern Ukraine, southern Russia, in USA (where they're called prairies, but they shouldn't be much different from standard European steppes) but not in Canada, and in Argentina (where they are called pampas, as far as I know). Endless grasslands on the far north (northern Russia, northern Norway, Svalbard, Greenland, northern Canada, Alaska or nothern Antarctica) are called tundra.

Im sure ingame map isn't ment to display accurate climate map but more likely a map that fits to campaigns own lore and to other mainline lore.

[Elfarion]

5. What kind of magic do their shamans do and how important is it for them?

Since I like to think of the Orcs as some sort of nomadic culture, here's my proposal:
The orcish cult is animistic. They worship the spirits of nature as well as the spirits of their ancestors who fell in the battle. So shamans would use the forces of nature to cast spells and perform rituals to ask their ancestors for advice. This leads to the question how they see necromancy. Two possible answers:
a) Necromancy is forbidden because bringing back and enslaving the spirit of a honoured fallen warrior is a sacrilege,
or
b) Necromancy is allowed because the ancestors can share their wisdom with the living orcs.
Given that ghosts are described as tormented souls, I'd prefer option a) but it can be viewed differently and might even be handled differently from tribe to tribe.

So the shamans would have great influence in the Orcs' culture as spiritual leaders and keepers of lore and law (maybe a bit like Celtic bards - non-literated cultures require "living libraries"). Yet, shamans don't lead Orcs into battle and would hesitate to get involved into tribe-intern politics such as rivals fighting for leadership or else.

[Dugi]

Thanks for your replies so far.

Most likely depends on the orcs, ranging from attacking on sight to granting them some mild hospitality. Of course, in the latter case they'd expect to gain something from it, whether a good bargain, important information or an ally.

So, if the orcs were fleeing from enemies who are enemies to humans, elves, dwarves and undead as well, they would probably show hospitality?

On average? More intelligent than trolls, less intelligent than humans. I'd like to think that they have about the same intellectual capacity than any other race, but that their nature and society simply favor a straightforward brute force approach to most things, so relatively few orcs (mostly leaders) get to really hone their intelligence.

I thought so.

Mostly indistinquishable from males, I'd say.

Why aren't orcish units both male and female with same sprites, if nagas are like that? With reptiles, it is generally even harder to identify the gender than with mammals. Or the female orcs just don't fight because most orcs are male?

Im sure ingame map isn't ment to display accurate climate map but more likely a map that fits to campaigns own lore and to other mainline lore.

That would mean that mainline lore is quite stupid. If there was some warm ocean currents heating it, the weather would be rainy and there would be no steppe. Let us say that it is a tundra (that is basically a grassland as well) and wesnoth's geographers cannot tell a tundra from a steppe.

@Elfarion
Celts weren't much like orcs, because of point 6 in the original post. And the druids weren't as rare as the shamans in SotBE (druids even had an academy on Iris Mona (that is possibly the Isle of Man nowadays), while the orcs just had a few shamans in big cities).
But I suppose that they worship some spirits like most so calledprimitive societies did, and maybe the shamans are some kind of necromancers that just ask the spirits some questions without torturing them. Their draining missile is probably related to necromancy. I suppose that the usual human necromancers are defiles of the dead in the eyes of orcs, because orcs fought the necromancers for example in SotBE or IftU. I suppose there is some kind of barrier between good necromancy and bad necromancy for them (if you have played the game Morrowind, you might understand it better).

[Elfarion]

I did'nt intend to compare Celts and Orcs, I just wanted to point out the importance of lorekeepers in non-literated societies and the Celts were the first that I thought of. (I admit, that I don't know much about them though.)

About the gender issue: As a passionate writer I'd always put storytelling over gameplay questions. If you want to have female orcish warriors why not introduce a tribe whose culture differs from the other tribes and allows women to fight? Another solution would be that the number of males exceeds the number of females. So women are rare and only the strongest and bravest warriors are allowed to mate. Orcish women would be highly respected (and maybe be shamans?) but not allowed to take the risk of a death in battle. (In the books of the german Writer Bernhard Hennen the Trolls' society is like that.)

[Dugi]

I do not intend to have any female orcish warriors there, I came to this question when I was thinking about another project where you can make your character, selecting the gender and race and then you start adding some more stuff, but a question appeared - what are female orcs? Never seen any!

The idea that orcish women are rare might explain a lot. The only thing that is suggested in the game is that usually several orcs are born from each pregnacy. There is a lot of possibilities then (ordered in the way how I like them):
1. You can't tell an orc's gender, any orc you see can be a she-orc, as zookeeper suggested.
2. Your idea, their women are rare and well-hidden.
3. Their women look completely human and nobody notices they are orcs, so when attackers appear, they just pretend to be captives.
4. They are loving husbands, and care to make war only in locations far enough from their wives so that nobody would discover them.
5. They are born in hives, hatching from eggs and their queens are well-hidden.
6. They mate with some kind of valkyries, divine messengers who keep their genes strong (the existence of goblins is a small problem here).
7. They are all children of rape, but all of their genes are dominant.
8. They are simply born.

[Raychu]

5. They are born in hives, hatching from eggs and their queens are well-hidden.

How do you mean they are hatching from eggs, i thought they are mammals?
To me orcs looks rather like Homo erectus (ancestor of Homo sapiens) but quite evolved in the psychic sense.

[Dugi]

The ideas 5-8 were just crazy ideas that might appeal, but as I said, I think that the ideas above it are better.

[pauline]

Dugi, this thread is quite "old", you might not need further info about orcs.
For the sake of completeness, I´ld like to add what the author of UMC Swamplings tells
on the subject of orcish "mating" and Goblins, the 3rd orc category.
I´ve no idea in what way personal writer opinions are relevant to BfW-standards for races.

Spoiler:

scenario 15 – introduction:
"Yushnak ruled the Snakebite Clan for almost a generation … built them up into the most powerful in the territory, then brought them to total ruin. A brilliant tactician - some say he was the wisest orc in millennia. He consolidated and co-opted many clans into his own, building up his power. His troubles began with his first bride, a goblin girl who died giving birth. (... not laying eggs )
Deaths like these are expected by the orcs, which is why a chieftain may have as many brides as he wants. But Yushnak was troubled, and sought counsel from his shaman. He began to ask, why are some orcs born so small ? Why do so many die in their first year ? ... He married another goblin and she also died giving birth.
That's when he began his quest to different shamen in far-flung regions – he risked his life many times, but he had to find the truth. No shaman would answer him directly but he began to piece together a theory. Perhaps the orc bloodline was less than pure – perhaps it had been polluted by another ancient race ? The mere mention of this idea caused many shamen to shrink in horror. ...
He was sick of lies and out of patience. He called together the shamen from all nearby clans, promising a banquet in their honor.
Many stayed away, suspecting some treachery, but many were not as prudent. When they arrived they were imprisoned and tortured.
That night (the Goblins call it "the Splintering") , Yushnak got his answer. He found out the goblins were, ages ago,
a separate race. Under unspeakable torture, the shaman admitted that the blending of orcish and goblin bloodlines was leading to the slow death of both. The Snakebite clan turned on their own goblin kin, killing many, driving out the rest.
We (the Goblins ) were herded together on tiny boats and ferried deep into the bogs, where they left us to fend for ourselves. On one of those boats was Yusnak's (the loving husband) third bride, pregnant with his child.
Word spread that the shamen had been tortured, and every orcish clan rose up as one and slaughtered Yushnak and Snakebite Clan. Not an orc in the clan was allowed to live, not a single trace was left of them. Salt was poured on the land where Snakebite Clan had walked, so no life would ever grow there." (* I think the plural of shaman is shamans, not shamen.)

So much for your rank of possibilities and the esteem of orcish shamans.
Author´s post in his thread: "My theory here is that goblins were once a pure and separate race many centuries ago, but they were conquered by the orcs who, over generations, merged into one genetically unstable race."
And an answer: "Have you seen the Free Goblins ? (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Free_Goblins). They are not in any way mainline quality (art-wise) but maybe you can use some ideas from them to explain, how this band of goblins decided to move out from their regular orc-society."

A trifle: In Swamplings, Orcs also seem to give pretty much importance to their obituary and posthumous fame.

Spoiler:

Death-messages:
"Let it be written, Erong of Hammerhead Clan always treated his pusillanimous goblins fairly, until the day they rose up in treachery and stabbed him in the back!"
"Let it be written ... Warlord Grirk was the greatest and strongest of his generation!"
"Let it be carved in marble, taller than the cliffs!"

pauline

[Dugi]

Well, I have finished the campaign I was writing, and because the most acceptable explanation was that female orcs are not distinguishable from male orcs, I decided to simply neglect any mention of female orcs in orcish society, as in many other campaigns containing orcs.

But your information will be useful to me for further projects. I haven't played Swamplings, and never had any idea of the things told there. But it makes sense... Thank you.