Epic fantasy and politics in Wesnoth?

[Kanzil]

The discussion in the HttT re-write topic piqued my curiosity - does Wesnoth have an Epic Fantasy campaign, one that deals with the higher politics and intrigue of principalities and houses? Would one be welcome? Is Wesnoth a suitable medium for such a campaign?

[Elfarion]

As long as it includes enough fighting, it certainly would fit into Wesnoth. For example there could be a civil war campaign about different nobles fighting for power, mutual betrayal etc. I guess, it still would require sophisticated story telling.
Edit: The Mainline Campaign that gets closest to dealing with politics would be TRoW where the diplomatic relation and negotiation between Humans and Elves are shown.

[Kanzil]

Indeed. Perhaps not a single campaign deals with politics and the " Game of Houses", the movement of Kingdoms and the rise and fall of peoples. I'd love to see such a campaign, if only I could code...

Wesnoth has campaigns covering many plots and stories, but none that tell it from the perspective of nations as a whole. I value quality of writing and storyline very highly, as well as gameplay and art; campaigns in Wesnoth rarely have all four, due to the large amount of peope who do not speak English as their mother tongue and the scarcity of artists, as most work on mainline projects. It would certainly be interesting to see a campaign that embodied all these qualities, and told the story of Wesnoth from a higher perspective.

[Elfarion]

Telling the entire story of Wesnoth would'nt be necessary IMO. When I looked through the timeline, I was jumped by a story hook:

The first Dark Age was a time of strife and invasion. When Haldric IV died, he left Wesnoth without a king, and the next 70 years were marked by short-lived dynasties, [...] and the further separation of Wesnoth and Elensefar.

Would'nt this make a great setting for a "Game of Houses" campaign?

[pyrophorus]

Indeed. Perhaps not a single campaign deals with politics and the " Game of Houses", the movement of Kingdoms and the rise and fall of peoples. I'd love to see such a campaign, if only I could code...

Coding is not so difficult since you don't try to implement strange abilities or astounding effects. Story-wise campaigns are rather easy to code IMO.

Wesnoth has campaigns covering many plots and stories, but none that tell it from the perspective of nations as a whole.

I think it's rather difficult to create such stories, because the game is made for managing rather little teams (15-30 units) and a few main characters (1-5). Large armies are quickly boring because the long delay between turns, and it's not so easy to manage interleaved stories. This leads I think, to a rather shrink point of view: stories about the quests and adventures of little groups. This means it's difficult to feature nations as a whole in a convincing way. The King of Wesnoth can't look like a great king, because the game shows him as a simple noble man living in a little palace with a few attendants. This would be fine to feature a middle Age king (who was not much more than a great feudal lord), but not a king ruling directly his whole kingdom. For myself, I always have the feeling Wesnoth is no more than a few villages in a twenty kilo meters wide land.

More of it, one must take on a TV-series story telling model: the big picture must be split into small episodes, each having its own consistency and interest. It's a constraint.

A little off-topic, I would say I am struck by the way most campaigns escape Wesnoth main history: they take place in the past or far future, in the borders or foreign lands. In my campaign, I felt necessary to escape in some way too, because Wesnoth land and history are too narrow and simple to leave gaps where creating something. But maybe something could be done anyway.

[Elfarion]

The timeline covers almost 900 years from TRoW to SotBE. Most of this history is only vaguely described. And: It's only the history after the arrival of the humans. Tell me, if I'm wrong, but the pre-human history of the Great Continent isn't told at all. So, while Wensoth may be narrow regarding space, there's a huge time span to be filled with history.

[pyrophorus]

The timeline covers almost 900 years from TRoW to SotBE. Most of this history is only vaguely described. And: It's only the history after the arrival of the humans. Tell me, if I'm wrong, but the pre-human history of the Great Continent isn't told at all. So, while Wensoth may be narrow regarding space, there's a huge time span to be filled with history.

As a proverb says: "Happy people have no history". During most of Wesnoth history, the kingdom is said to be prosperous and at peace, at least within its borders. It's difficult to set up a story during these times, because good stories are made with threats and bad events. That's why, as you quoted earlier, first Dark Age is a good place to insert a story consistent with Wesnoth general history, and Golden Age is not (IMO) even if it is much longer.
And I didn't say Wesnoth was narrow in space, only *I* had this feeling for different reasons. Since the maps are not scaled, one can imagine the land much wider, and it's probably what one can infer from many campaigns.
Same with the pre-human history of the Great Continent. One can imagine powerful kingdoms in the old times, but it don't fit very well with the general behaviour of pre-existing races in Wesnoth: they use to live in rather small clans, not closely related to each others, and this creates not much history, only legends, My point is saying the game is more fitted to tell little groups adventures than politics and history.

Friendly,

[revansurik]

Tell me, if I'm wrong, but the pre-human history of the Great Continent isn't told at all. So, while Wensoth may be narrow regarding space, there's a huge time span to be filled with history

Well, if you consider UMC, there's this timeline of Pre-Wesnoth that was recently made. It's not canon, obviously, but it doesn't clash with canon lore either (or so I think )

http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Timeline_of_Pre-Wesnoth

[Kanzil]

Would'nt this make a great setting for a "Game of Houses" campaign?

It would. Regarding the comments about the inadequacy of Wesnoth as a medium for telling tales of great battles, politics and history, there are many large battles, and, also, there do not necessarily have to be many units on the map, there just has to be the impression that there are. Also, it is not necessarily all about large battles, just Wesnoth from a different perspective, and the politics of it.

[AfterDawn]

I too have always wanted to see a campaign dealing with a more complex political undertone especially since I've recently been a fan of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series. Most of the time I feel the wesnoth stories are about heroes and villains, one side is evil the other good and there isn't much else to say about the characters. There are a few exceptions, like the mainline DiD which is a pretty cool story about good intentions going bad (in a way) but even that doesn't handle political intrigue which I am now in love with.

I think it's rather difficult to create such stories, because the game is made for managing rather little teams (15-30 units) and a few main characters (1-5)

That is a pretty significant restriction especially if a writer wanted to write an epic like "Song of Ice and Fire" which has dozens of characters but even then there aren't more than 4 or 5 characters per-group (at least I assume that's the case). If a person were to just pick a faction and write about them we'd have a pretty good looking campaign.

Also, it is not necessarily all about large battles, just Wesnoth from a different perspective, and the politics of it.

Basically what I would like to see as well.

[pyrophorus]

... there do not necessarily have to be many units on the map, there just has to be the impression that there are.

Interesting... How would you do that ?

More of it, I think campaigns 'A new Order' and 'Swamplings' feature both stories with political aspects. In the first one, you have a succession war for the throne, for instance. What do you think of them ? Is this what you have in mind or something else ?

[AfterDawn]

More of it, I think campaigns 'A new Order' ... both stories with political aspects... Is this what you have in mind or something else ?

Actually yes, thanks a lot! (just started New Order)

[Kanzil]

Interesting... How would you do that ?

More of it, I think campaigns 'A new Order' and 'Swamplings' feature both stories with political aspects. In the first one, you have a succession war for the throne, for instance. What do you think of them ? Is this what you have in mind or something else ?

I would use shroud etc. and place the units in formations, and suchlike to give an impression of large armies. ANO is a little like what I imagine, yet it still revolves around the actions of a single character, and isn't devoted so much to the politices and the intrigue, the power struggles and great wars.

[tr0ll]

There are many campaigns existing in which the hero wages a small to medium battle in the background of a larger war and Irdya-wide diplomatic pressures. I think it is one of Wesnoth's strong suits - you are placed into the action at choice turning points in the bigger picture, at least in the mainline campaigns.

For example in Son of the Black-Eye (SotBE), you grow to be a unifying hero of the entire northern orc population. To do that, there is a lot of travelling around the map, talking to the different orc (and non-orc) factions and delegating the sub-heroes to other tasks to re-unite later. There is loyalty to build, intrigue to be uncovered, betrayal, and alliance.

Are you looking for "epic" in the sense of units above level 5? I am not sure how well the game mechanics will work or balance if there are low level units present at the same time. Some campaigns do make you start with level 0 units that have to tread carefully among level 2s and 3s, avoiding combat until you are ready.

[Elfarion]

There are many campaigns existing in which the hero wages a small to medium battle in the background of a larger war and Irdya-wide diplomatic pressures. I think it is one of Wesnoth's strong suits - you are placed into the action at choice turning points in the bigger picture, at least in the mainline campaigns.

For example in Son of the Black-Eye (SotBE), you grow to be a unifying hero of the entire northern orc population. To do that, there is a lot of travelling around the map, talking to the different orc (and non-orc) factions and delegating the sub-heroes to other tasks to re-unite later. There is loyalty to build, intrigue to be uncovered, betrayal, and alliance.

Yeah, that's how it works. Make campaigns that are set in times of great changes and let the player exerience these changes. Most of the mainline campaigns work like that. Even AOI deals with events that influence the west of the Great Continent. And AOI is really short.

Are you looking for "epic" in the sense of units above level 5? I am not sure how well the game mechanics will work or balance if there are low level units present at the same time. Some campaigns do make you start with level 0 units that have to tread carefully among level 2s and 3s, avoiding combat until you are ready.

I don't think the "epicness" of a campaign depends on having overpowered units. In fact, epic is a special sort of storytelling. No more, no less.