Revising the HttT Text & Dialogue

[vodot]

...except for the remark about just leaving her being murder which is a bit strange considering that the map is filled with villages and she wouldn't be completely alone anyway.

Heh. Sometimes I read something I wrote like a day before and I'm just flabbergasted that it made it onto the page. See v0.3.2.

For the Valley of Death, maybe there ought to be more of an explanation for why it's in the hands of undead than just "they've been roaming there as of late". Maybe something special happened there in the recent past, which Li'sar would know about but Konrad's party wouldn't.

In v0.3 (& v0.3.1) I have Li'asr simply referring to "the valley of undeath." Your Li'sar quote is from the original text.

Unless you're saying that my version also needs more explanation— I had the same thought as you about the original line, so I just eliminated it altogether and made it more of a spiteful retort to the paradigm shift she's facing.

[Temuchin Khan]

Spoiler:

"Learning of the hideous order, Delfador raced for the palace. Stealing inside, he found the wicked edict already being carried out. Against all hope he found alive the youngest and last of the king's nephews, the infant Konrad. Delfador fled with the child to the Aethenwood beyond the southwestern border of Wesnoth, where Konrand might be raised in peace under the protection of the elves.

I like the idea of braking it up a little more, but does that version fall back into the lying narrator issue?

Maybe this version would avoid it, I'm not sure:

Spoiler:

"Learning of the hideous order, Delfador raced for the palace. Stealing inside, he found the wicked edict already being carried out. Even Konrad, the youngest of Garard's nephews, was in mortal danger. But against all hope he found alive the infant Konrad! Delfador fled with the child to the Aethenwood beyond the southwestern border of Wesnoth, where Konrad might be raised in peace under the protection of the elves.

Hopefully that preserves the right impression for first time players without giving away the surprise ending while also avoiding an outright lie. What do you think?

EDIT:

Spoiler:

Here's what I'm thinking: my second phrasing would be taken on a first read-through as an affirmation that Konrad, the nephew, is Konrad, the hero. On a second read-through it would be clear that we are referring to two different Konrads.

[Pewskeepski]

I personally don't see a problem with the narrator lying. Before, I always thought the narrative intro was basically what everybody in the campaign believed. So it's sort of like it's from Konrad's point of view, but not so distinct. More like this is what everybody has been told.

[Groggy_Dice]

OK, I guess it's time to comment on the new draft of Princess.

First, you already independently came up with two of my suggested motivations, the "approaching army" and the "need to move fast." The difference is that in your version, guarding just the princess is too much. ("We cannot afford to guard her all the way to Knalga.") I don't see how a single prisoner could be that much trouble.

As for the arrogance that Pewkeepski likes, it's too much for my taste. To my mind, excessive arrogance reflects a lack of maturity, so it's not in keeping with the mandate to make the characters more mature. It also makes her an unattractive character in my eyes. (Perhaps my mind will change after I see how you transform her.) But clearly, others do like this portrayal.

About "boy": my understanding is that Li'sar is being aged in tandem with Konrad, so she will still be a few years older than him.

Now, to go through and pick out certain phrases:

"orcish spies had watced the confrontation": Why does the message have to be sent by spies in the hills, rather than the orcs actually involved in the fighting?

"sensation not felt for years: doubt": Doubt about what? Doubt that she'd killed all the heirs? Doubt that she's safe on the throne? It can't be doubt about what to do, because in the next sentence "she did not hesitate." Why doubt, rather than, say, fear?

"hands of her most skilled commander": I was already ambivalent about the "most able commander" language from the original version. It does build up tension for this scenario, and the other scenarios where you fight the princess. However, it makes the rest of the Loyalist scenarios seem anticlimactic, since you know you're not facing their "most skilled" general. (Of course, it could be argued that those scenarios actually are anticlimactic.)

"Well well, the imposter comes northward!": I always thought it wrong in the original version that Li'sar focused on the "impostor" Konrad rather than Delfador. Delfador is the one who killed her brother, and in your version, she also thinks he killed her father and other brothers. Meanwhile, until recently Konrad was an untested youth. I think it's more likely that she and her mother see Delfador as the mastermind, and Konrad as a mere catspaw, at this stage.

Enough for now, time for bed.

[taptap]

I prefer the "lying" narrator. It also should be clear that Konrad is somewhat an unlikely hero, he wasn't something special when Delfador raced to the palace, but when all died, being the only survivor does make him special. So, please no "even Konrad was in danger" - so what? He wasn't the heir or anything before his brothers died, surviving made him important. (I personally found the whole story twisting unnecessary, introducing a second plot just to make a marriage look nicer to the western player. In fact cousin marriage wasn't uncommon in medieval times and is pretty common until today even if not in Western Europe / US.)

[vodot]

I don't see how a single prisoner could be that much trouble.

Well, perhaps not. It's more of the cumulative effect of having to guard such a high-profile prisoner in such forbidding country, all while traveling with maximum stealth and speed. I'll take a second look.

As for the arrogance that Pewkeepski likes, it's too much for my taste. To my mind, excessive arrogance reflects a lack of maturity, so it's not in keeping with the mandate to make the characters more mature. It also makes her an unattractive character in my eyes. (Perhaps my mind will change after I see how you transform her.) But clearly, others do like this portrayal.

Hm. I'm tempted to just say "good", since as you say, the idea is that the player like Li'sar eventually. However, excessive arrogance is not what I was going for. I tried to draw out some noble and mature characteristics as well; are those coming across to anybody?

orcish spies had watced the confrontation": Why does the message have to be sent by spies in the hills, rather than the orcs actually involved in the fighting?

No reason, really. I beat Crossroads so easily (on hard, on my first try) that it almost seems implausible that survivors (if any) would reach the queen ahead of the hidden ambushers the player knows are hiding in the hills.

"sensation not felt for years: doubt": Doubt about what? Doubt that she'd killed all the heirs? Doubt that she's safe on the throne? It can't be doubt about what to do, because in the next sentence "she did not hesitate." Why doubt, rather than, say, fear?

Geh, I had fear there for a while, but fear seems over the top. Why not 'doubt' that she had killed all the heirs? Might not a guardsman have lied to her in fear, concealing that Konrad had actually survived? Seeing Delfador the Great marching a growing band of rebels towards the Scepter in the north with an heir of similar description and name to one she thought she had murdered? I think doubt is plausible.

[meh at Li'sar being "the best" commander]...(Of course, it could be argued that those scenarios actually are anticlimactic.)

Well, it could. I like this strong introduction to Li'sar, but I don't have anything invested in her being "the best of the best"— how about "one of her most skilled..."

"Well well, the imposter comes northward!": I always thought it wrong in the original version that Li'sar focused on the "impostor" Konrad rather than Delfador. Delfador is the one who killed her brother, and in your version, she also thinks he killed her father and other brothers. Meanwhile, until recently Konrad was an untested youth. I think it's more likely that she and her mother see Delfador as the mastermind, and Konrad as a mere catspaw, at this stage.

Yesh. I like this. I'm treating the story very gently, but this is a good example of me allowing the original text to too tightly control what I write. You can see that I understand Delfador's seminal role— "Kingsbane", and all—yet I'm hesitant to 'de-center' Konrad where the original text gives him focus.

I prefer the "lying" narrator.

I think the narration should tell us roughly what is known to the sum of the characters at the time, maybe with a little 3rd-person omniscience or retrospective meddling thrown in to make a good story. I don't 'prefer' a lying narrator... but it's not super important to me. Temu, feel free to keep posting variants— if you hit a great one, I'll use it.

EDIT: Pew beat me to this already, and I skipped his post:

I personally don't see a problem with the narrator lying. Before, I always thought the narrative intro was basically what everybody in the campaign believed. So it's sort of like it's from Konrad's point of view, but not so distinct. More like this is what everybody has been told.

[zookeeper]

Unless you're saying that my version also needs more explanation— I had the same thought as you about the original line, so I just eliminated it altogether and made it more of a spiteful retort to the paradigm shift she's facing.

No, it was just a general remark. That scenario has always been a bit of a silly filler scenario; you're strolling through the countryside when suddenly you find yourself in the middle of a valley inhabited by three liches. What's going on? At least Muff Malal was just a lone necromancer and the Isle of the Damner is damned. Having huge undead armies living in random valleys in the middle of Wesnoth doesn't really make much sense.

As for the arrogance that Pewkeepski likes, it's too much for my taste. To my mind, excessive arrogance reflects a lack of maturity, so it's not in keeping with the mandate to make the characters more mature. It also makes her an unattractive character in my eyes. (Perhaps my mind will change after I see how you transform her.) But clearly, others do like this portrayal.

Hm. I'm tempted to just say "good", since as you say, the idea is that the player like Li'sar eventually. However, excessive arrogance is not what I was going for. I tried to draw out some noble and mature characteristics as well; are those coming across to anybody?

Well, I don't think she's was over-the-top arrogant in your version. I find it's ok for her to act arrogant and aggressive towards the people she considers to be overall horrible and evil people. However, I think it also can be safely toned down a little bit, if you want to.

"sensation not felt for years: doubt": Doubt about what? Doubt that she'd killed all the heirs? Doubt that she's safe on the throne? It can't be doubt about what to do, because in the next sentence "she did not hesitate." Why doubt, rather than, say, fear?

Geh, I had fear there for a while, but fear seems over the top. Why not 'doubt' that she had killed all the heirs? Might not a guardsman have lied to her in fear, concealing that Konrad had actually survived? Seeing Delfador the Great marching a growing band of rebels towards the Scepter in the north with an heir of similar description and name to one she thought she had murdered? I think doubt is plausible.

I interpreted "doubt" as doubt about her position and plans. She's learned that Delfador is alive and helping a rightful heir (she doesn't know that he's actually an impostor) lead a rebellion against her and that her mercenaries have failed in stopping them so far, which ought to make her doubt whether she's as safe and almighty anymore.

[meh at Li'sar being "the best" commander]...(Of course, it could be argued that those scenarios actually are anticlimactic.)

Well, it could. I like this strong introduction to Li'sar, but I don't have anything invested in her being "the best of the best"— how about "one of her most skilled..."

"Most trusted"?

[Boldek]

Unless you're saying that my version also needs more explanation— I had the same thought as you about the original line, so I just eliminated it altogether and made it more of a spiteful retort to the paradigm shift she's facing.

No, it was just a general remark. That scenario has always been a bit of a silly filler scenario; you're strolling through the countryside when suddenly you find yourself in the middle of a valley inhabited by three liches. What's going on? At least Muff Malal was just a lone necromancer and the Isle of the Damner is damned. Having huge undead armies living in random valleys in the middle of Wesnoth doesn't really make much sense.

I thought the brown hills were supposed to be a sort of wasteland, but and anyway during Asheviere's reign the kingdom wasn't top notch security. still, having three liches just jump out of the woods and then disappear was a little funny.

[Pewskeepski]

No, it was just a general remark. That scenario has always been a bit of a silly filler scenario; you're strolling through the countryside when suddenly you find yourself in the middle of a valley inhabited by three liches. What's going on? At least Muff Malal was just a lone necromancer and the Isle of the Damner is damned. Having huge undead armies living in random valleys in the middle of Wesnoth doesn't really make much sense.

Maybe the three liches are working for Asheviere. And, for the sickening sport of it, she sends some of her victims to the valley and sees (not literally) if they can either get out alive, or be fed to her hired minions who hunger on flesh and life

[vodot]

"Most trusted"?

Bingo :)

[rmj]

Maybe the three liches are working for Asheviere.

Asheviere had an interest in the occult, but she certainly could not control liches. However, she could have had dealings with someone who could do so. These liches could have been sent as a trap for Konrad. All this should not be explained, rather merely a hint by Li'sar that Konrad will fall into Mother's trap. Let the players' imaginations fill in the details.

The old version of three days being as long as they could fight seemed rather weak. I would prefer surprise by the good guys that the liches quit, and no explanation of why.

There is good in leaving space for the imagination of others to roam.

[Temuchin Khan]

I think the narration should tell us roughly what is known to the sum of the characters at the time, maybe with a little 3rd-person omniscience or retrospective meddling thrown in to make a good story. I don't 'prefer' a lying narrator... but it's not super important to me. Temu, feel free to keep posting variants— if you hit a great one, I'll use it.

EDIT: Pew beat me to this already, and I skipped his post:

....Before, I always thought the narrative intro was basically what everybody in the campaign believed. So it's sort of like it's from Konrad's point of view, but not so distinct. More like this is what everybody has been told.

I basically agree with these points. I just think the best way to handle it would be by phrasing things in such a way that they can have a double meaning.

How's this?

Spoiler:

[part]
story= _ "Once in power, the queen and her agents moved swiftly to consolidate her absolute authority. Daunting the weak and murdering the strong, they sowed disloyalty and chaos amongst the nobles and lords still loyal to Garard's memory. Finally, Asheviere ordered the cruel execution of the king's nephews, seeking to wipe from history the last trace of the king's male heirs. She refused to spare even Konrad, the youngest."
background=story/httt_story7.jpg
[/part]
[part]
story= _ "Learning of the hideous order, Delfador raced for the palace. Stealing inside, he found the wicked edict already being carried out. Against all hope he found alive the infant Konrad. Delfador fled with the child to the Aethenwood beyond the southwestern border of Wesnoth, where Konrad might be raised in peace under the protection of the elves."
background=story/httt_story8.jpg
[/part]

EDIT:

Spoiler:

Once again, I'm aiming for a way of writing it that will mean one thing the first time through and another the second time through.

[octalot]

Asheviere had an interest in the occult, but she certainly could not control liches. However, she could have had dealings with someone who could do so.

I'd give them have an opinion on who they want on the throne, and suggest that whoever they're working for isn't Asheviere, but has a hand on the reins of power. Either way, I think it should be a surprise to Li'sar that they have a preferred candidate; it would help explain her change of allegiance later on.

Preamble:
Lich: "You will not control the throne, Delfador."

Just before they retreat:
Lich: "Both heirs are with him?"

[vodot]

Ok, Valley of Death. Here are the options:

1. Textual facelift with minor scenario changes only. See S9 Valley of Undeath v0.1 v0.3 for an example of my (unfinished) (first draft) efforts to do so.

This option includes possibly writing geopolitics into the liches, alternate motivations, and anything else without effecting the coded triggers/etc. of the scenario.
Pros:
-minimal effort and campaign impact.
-minimal pushback from vets/fanboys
Cons:
potential illogicalities abound:
-why is this massive undead army here?
-why do they suddenly stop fighting?
-why is there holy water just lying on the ground?
-where did Moremirmu come from? How did he find the party?

2. Remove the scenario completely.
Pros:
-eliminates one of the most difficult, frustrating, illogical, and misleading scenarios in an already long campaign.
Cons:
-maximum campaign impact.
-maximum pushback from vets/fanboys
-medium effort (re-numbering, potential balance adjustments, etc.)

3. Code changes.
Option 3A: Remove/rework the holy water

Option 3B: Have Moremi wait to appear until the third day, when he storms the liches suddenly from the hills, who retreat. Victory.
Pros:
-resolves undead retreat.
Cons:
-Requires that Moremi not join the player in S5a.
-It's a total DEM/Ass Pull (nothing new, for this campaign), especially if the player went 5b.

Option 3C:
Remove the time limit, but require the player to kill all three liches. This is much harder than simply surviving for three days. And yes, I have seen vets kill all three liches on hard (they all use cheese).

3C.1 Weaken the undead:
-Smaller recruit space
-Less gold
-Remove a Lich

3C.2 Strengthen the player
-Larger recruit Space
-More gold

Pros:
-removes some illogicality
-resolves undead retreat
Cons:
-effort required to rebalance scenario
-Totally boring.

If there are other options, let me know. I need to hear what you think on this one, Zookeep.

I think it should be a surprise to Li'sar that they have a preferred candidate

Li'sar has not joined the party yet.

Although... :hmm:

Option 3D: Li'sar could be captured by the rebels at the end of S8, spawn and live through this scenario as a prisoner, then escape during the tumult after hearing said undead political musings.

[Temuchin Khan]

Ok, Valley of Death. Here are the options:

1. Textual facelift with minor scenario changes only. See S9 Valley of Undeath v0.1 for an example of my (unfinished) efforts to do so.

This option includes possibly writing geopolitics into the liches, alternate motivations, and anything else without effecting the coded triggers/etc. of the scenario.
Pros:
-minimal effort and campaign impact.
-minimal pushback from vets/fanboys
Cons:
potential illogicalities abound:
-why is this massive undead army here?
-why do they suddenly stop fighting?
-why is there holy water just lying on the ground?
-where did Moremirmu come from? How did he find the party?

If this option were taken, we could explain the first two questions by taking a page from various mythologies: These three liches and their hordes have been cursed. Whenever anyone sets foot in the valley, they are doomed to fight him for three days. Then then vanish on the third day because the curse never lets them win. Of course, we'd have to develop a backstory for the liches and their curse if we did this.

EDIT: The holy water could be found on the remains of an unfortunate traveler who never left the valley alive.

EDIT 2: Give Moremirmu a tracker, and say that he followed the party's spoor. Here again, we'd have to trace a back story. If Moremirmu did join the party earlier, he needs to leave it before this scenario so that his return makes sense. If he did not join the party earlier, but was encountered, he needs to explain that he defeated the other lich on the Isles of the Damned. If he was never encountered, he can simply say that he wants to join Konrad.