Revising the HttT Text & Dialogue

[vodot]

I'll rework the Aethenwood references to something that makes more political sense.

Eldred is a tougher nut, because his behavior and that of the king's army really does need to be addressed. The changes I made, I made to give some skeleton explanation for a plot that left me just simply baffled. I made the skeleton too meaty, and maybe it's still too meaty, but what was there before was like a post-it 'IOU one plot.'

The me/original chimera you posted is better than the original, but I think the solution is still a little closer to v0.62.

I'll simplify further for the second edit.

EDIT: Ok, here's a fast draft. What do you think? Intro v0.7

[Temuchin Khan]

Once in power, the queen and her agents moved swiftly to consolidate her absolute authority. Intimidating the weak and murdering the strong, they sowed disloyalty and chaos amongst the nobles and lords still loyal to Garard's memory. Asheviere ordered the cruel execution of the king's nephews; wiping out the last trace of the king's male heirs— except for the infant Konrad, whom Delfador was able to secret away from the castle and the very clutches of death.

Yes, that might work.

[zookeeper]

EDIT: Ok, here's a fast draft. What do you think? Intro v0.7

Looking good. That pretty much hits the mark, and with a few minor wording tweaks it should be ready.

The biggest change I'd still make is to split the bit about Delfador secreting away Konrad into its own [part]; it's the most important part of the backstory so I think it requires special mention.

I'll try to start posting detailed feedback on the scenarios next, skipping EB for now until you've posted the next revision of it.

[taptap]

Siege of Elensefar:

The dialog seems to suggest a doubtful rushing strategy - which might be responsible for many first time players problems with this scenario.

"Our forces aren't strong enough for a siege." (Really depends on your gold and recall list.)

"We have to defeat the orcs before reinforcements arrive." (Advises a rush which is not necessarily the best strategy. Calmer play is enough to win and when achieved this way the victory looks often more convincing as well. Faello proved this several times by his replays posted in the campaign feedback.)

Having different dialogs according to the amount of gold the player brings to this level could be a solution, but is more work for sure.

Btw. there is a missing story link between the last scenario of Scepter of Fire (where the scepter

Spoiler:

is buried under lava

) and HttT (where you can pick it up easily in a cave). I would propose changing the SoF campaign accordingly (to make the survival of the scepter slightly more plausible) but since this topic inevitably comes up here.

[Drakefriend]

Although Sceptre of Fire is according to its original creator, Turin, the legend told about the origin of the sceptre, not the way it actually happened. So we do not know which of the events described therein actually happened or if they did this way, or if it is an exaggoration or later addition.

[vodot]

The biggest change I'd still make is to split the bit about Delfador secreting away Konrad into its own; it's the most important part of the backstory so I think it requires special mention..

Done. v0.8.

...misleading SoE dialogue

Are you talking about my rewritten dialogue, or the original?

EDIT: see v0.51 for more clarification.

[taptap]

Siege of Elensefar:

You are right, I was confused.

I believe there is no need of deriding exiles. "First exiles, and now thieves? Who says we can trust such as you?" as Konrad is a kind of exile himself. Is there anything that makes exiles less trustworthy? Sth. like "Many unexpected allies, eh?"

I like the idea of having the rank and file talk, maybe get the cheers on Konrad before himself declaring the victory, maybe he doesn't even have to talk here when everyone is praising him (this will feel good to players).

--

The other comment referred to a different (Scepter of Fire = SoF not SoE) campaign, actually. Tried to mention the logical problem that exist there as here is the first time the Scepter of Fire is mentioned during the campaign. (Admittedly it was kind of a surprise first time that some odd artefact should be necessary to gain the throne.)

[vodot]

...exiles.

This is intended to be a reflection of Konrad's amused surprise, not a negative reflection on the exiles' character.

"First exiles, now thieves" is in the sense of "Even though I myself am an outlaw, I'm still surprised that my army is made up of exiles and thieves rather than otherwise law abiding rebels;" not "exiles are scum and I was surprised by them, maybe you'll turn out ok too."

This sort of goes back to Groggy's observation: Konrad's forces are not a popular 'rebellion of the people' (yet) but rather a rag-tag group of (mostly foreign) peoples he has saved through hard-fought effort; the fact surprises Konrad and his advisers, but does not disgust them.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: looking at it, I can see how you took it that way. I did not fully expunge the "brigands" atmosphere from a previous draft. *sigh* I'll clarify. Thanks for the feedback.

Also: S8: The Princess of Wesnoth v0.3 is up! This is an important one; my first crack at a more mature Li'sar.

[Groggy_Dice]

Moving fast! Since you're already on Princess of Wesnoth, I'm going to just rush out the comments on that scenario I was working on.

• I began this in response to the original scenario, so it's not a commentary on your version. In fact, you anticipated some of my suggestions in certain places!
• The dialog is included for illustrative purposes, not because that's necessarily what I think the final text should read. For one thing, since most of it is going to hit the cutting room floor, it wasn't worth my time to polish every single line. Changing lines, or speakers, is fine.

Anyway, here are the possible motivations for releasing Li'sar that I thought of:

• She refuses to surrender, leaving the heroes with the choice to kill her or let her go.
  
  Konrad: You are beaten, princess! Yield, and we will spare your life!
  Li'sar: No princess of Wesnoth surrenders to brigands! Death before dishonor!
  Kalenz: Have it your way!
  Konrad: No, hold! I will not have the blood of my kin on my hands if I can help it. We are kin, princess - even if you believe it not.
  Kalenz: Delfador, talk some sense into that boy.
  Delfador: No... I loved the old king... Killing his son was the hardest thing I ever had to do, in spite of his treachery... I remember the princess as a little girl, playing in the castle... I cannot strike down the king's last child.
  Kalenz: You two have gone mad! If she won't surrender, and you won't kill her, what do you propose we do - let her go?
  Konrad: Well, I guess we have to.
  Kalenz: What!?
  Li'sar: You're... you're letting me go?
• Having decided to spare her life, the heroes conclude that her life is not safe in the rebel camp.
  
  Kalenz? Reglok? Haldiel?: Very well, spare her life, then! She will be in a camp full of vengeful men who have suffered greatly at Asheviere's hands - one of them will be sure to strike the blow that you are too soft to!
  Konrad: Kalenz is right, she is not safe among us. We must let her go.
  Kalenz: What??!!
  Konrad: Our men are brave, but no one knows better than I that many are also bitter. If we truly mean to spare her life, we must release her.
• She invokes the Green Isle's right of surrender.
  
  Li'sar: I invoke the right of surrender!
  Delfador: The right of surrender? Our ancestors observed that custom on the Green Isle, but it has fallen by the wayside since we came to the Great Continent. Certainly, your mother has never shown mercy to her foes.
  Li'sar: Nevertheless, I invoke it. Will you recognize it?
  Konrad: We will. I want to usher in a new spirit of mercy, after your mother's bloody reign. According to the ancient custom, you and your men are free to leave in peace. But do not abuse the right, because we will not be able to spare you again.
• The heroes hope to sow dissension between Asheviere and her daughter.
  
  Kalenz: "Simply let her go? Why would we do that?"
  Delfador: "Ah, but see, Asheviere will ask the same question. Her paranoia will lead her to suspect that her daughter must have struck some sort of bargain with us. Rather than turning all her attention on us, she will be watching her daughter for treachery."
  Kalenz: "You humans truly have devious minds, Delfador."
• The rebels want to send a political signal, either to Asheviere loyalists or the populace at large.
  
  Konrad: "While some want revenge, most of the people of Wesnoth want peace. I want them to know that I will end the era of bloody purges, not start a new one. And many of those who have served Asheviere may think they must fight to the bitter end, or face retribution. What better way to show that I will bring forgiveness, not vengefulness, than to release Asheviere's very heir?"
• The heroes realize that if they bring Li'sar as a prisoner, and they all perish in their quest, Wesnoth will be without an heir.
  
  Delfador: "The last army to seek the sceptre vanished to a man. If we perish, Li'sar will still be there to inherit the throne."
  
  But why would they want the tyrant's daughter to succeed her? Possible reasons:
  
  a) They believe (or hope) Li'sar will be a more benevolent ruler than her mother.
  Konrad: "This rebellion is not about personal ambition, or even my being the legitimate heir, but ending the rule of a tyrant. But Asheviere will not live forever, and her daughter has never committed the massacres that her mother has. Her men fought hard today, not out of fear, but with true devotion. No one who inspires such loyalty can be wholly evil."
  
  b) Fear of chaos.
  Delfador: "Those who serve Asheviere are motivated by greed and lust for power. Without a clear successor to hold them in check, Wesnoth will be torn by strife as her ambitious lieutenants squabble for power."
  
  c) Fear of external enemies.
  Delfador: "Asheviere has been a tyrant, but even so, her cruelties pale in comparison to what Wesnoth would suffer under the unchecked ravages of the orcs or the undead. If we perish, Wesnoth will still need a strong ruler to hold its foes at bay. The princess may well continue her mother's murderous ways, but as we have seen today, she is also a capable warrior."
• The approach of a stronger loyalist army gives Li'sar bargaining power.
  
  Scout: Prince Konrad! Master Delfador! A great army is approaching on the road from Weldyn! It includes elite royal guards, and is much too powerful to fight!
  Li'sar: My main army has finally arrived from Weldyn. The worm has turned!
  Konrad: Well, they can't attack us, with the princess as our captive. On the other hand, we can hardly seek the sceptre with the royal army dogging us. It seems we are at an impasse.
  Li'sar: Release me to my army, and I will grant you three days' march.
• There are other loyalist forces ahead, blocking the rebel path.
  
  Li'sar: In exchange for my release, I will tell the garrisons on the road ahead to stand aside and let you pass.
• She promises to deliver a ransom for her release.
  
  This is actually not very plausible, why wouldn't they wait for the money before actually releasing her? But perhaps it could be tied in with her sharing her gold after Hasty Alliance.
• Delfador fears that Li'sar has inherited her mother's feminine wiles.
  
  Kalenz (whispering): "I can understand why you would spare her life, out of friendship with the old king, but why are we letting her go? Wouldn't she make a valuable captive?"
  Delfador: "I couldn't bring myself to kill Garard's daughter. But the women of Asheviere's family are known for their power to bewitch men, and from the devotion Li'sar's men displayed today, she has inherited that power. Wesnoth has suffered grievously because the old king allowed himself to be seduced. Better to get Asheviere's spawn out of our camp quickly, before she can ensorcel any of our men!"
  
  (A variant of this would be to have Konrad be the one who fears Li'sar's charms.)
• The rules set by Garard for the quest require Li'sar's release.
  
  Li'sar: "I am the daughter of the queen, and the old king. The sceptre is rightfully mine - even if you weren't an impostor."
  Delfador: "She does have a claim, she is of royal blood. According to Garard's edict, all claimants must be free to seek the sceptre. We are obligated to release her."
  Konrad: "She doesn't seem to be playing by the same rules..."
  Delfador: "Nevertheless, if our claim to the throne is to be untarnished, we must allow her to seek the sceptre."
• The captive loyalists refuse parole unless the princess is released as well.
  
  Konrad: "We will have to move fast for Knalga, and we can't be slowed down by bringing prisoners with us. We will parole them, and let them go. Except the princess, of course. She's too valuable."
  Prisoner: "We will not leave our princess' side!"
  Konrad: "Will you not accept parole? You will be free to go, in exchange for the promise not to take up arms against us again."
  Prisoner: "As long as the princess is your captive, our honor requires us to fight for her release. We cannot accept such terms."
  Konrad: "Eh, what's one more girl. Very well, release her too."
• The heroes don't release her at this time, because she's so valuable.
  
  Given that it's basically implausible that they would release her, they don't. Rather, she escapes or is released at some future point. Possibly at the beginning of Valley of Death, Konrad says something about making sure to watch her closely, and then at the end, it turns out she escaped during the confusion of battle.
• The rebels hope to convince her that they are telling the truth, with a show of generosity.
  
  Konrad: "We are telling the truth, princess. To prove it, we'll release you, to show our good faith. If we were the monsters your mothers says we are, would we do this?
• The heroes fear the reprisals Asheviere will inflict on the population if they hold her.
  
  Delfador: If we keep Li'sar, Asheviere is liable to do something like execute a hundred hostages a day until she is released. Better to just let her go now.
• She trades her freedom for information.
  
  Konrad: Delfador: "We have a perilous journey before we can claim the sceptre. I wish we had some information about the dangers we will face."
  Li'sar: "Release me, and I will tell you what I know of the conditions ahead."
  Konrad: "Hmm, that seems like a fair exchange..."

Some of these motivations might be combined, others are mutually exclusive.

Then there is the matter of explaining why the heroes gullibly swallow her assurances that the northern road is safe.

A. She pretends to be grateful.
Li'sar: "You have been more generous than I could have ever imagined. In return, I will tell you that the northern road should be safe for you."

B. She uses reverse psychology.

Li'sar: "The northerneastern road should be safe for you."
Konrad: "Ha, do you take us for fools? We'll take the other road, if you please. Come, men, to the northern road!"

C. There really is no other route to take.

Li'sar: "The northern road should be safe for you."
Konrad: "Even if you play us false, there is no other way to the sceptre. Come, men, to the northern road!"

D. She only promises that the road is free of loyalist forces.

Li'sar: "You will not face any more of the Queen's men on the northern road."
Konrad: "That is good to know. Come, men, to the northern road!"
Li'sar: "(There may be no soldiers, but there are plenty of undead. With as many undead as have wandered the northern road of late, they are surely doomed!)"

E. She is truthful, but not believed.

Li'sar: "You have been more generous than I could have ever imagined. In return, I will tell you that many undead have been wandering the northern road of late."
Konrad: "Ha, do you take us for fools? We won't be tricked into abandoning our quest for the sceptre. Come, men, to the northern road!"

F. If the rebels bring her as a captive, they could believe that she has as much stake in the safety of the road as they do.

Li'sar: "The northern road should be safe for you."
Konrad: "Your fate is tied to ours, so surely you play true. Come, men, to the northern road!"
Li'sar: "(With as many undead as have wandered the northern road of late, we are surely doomed! But at least these traitors will die with me!)"

G. Is there really any reason Li'sar has to volunteer any comment about the northern road at all?

It appears that this is the choice you've already taken!

[Jozrael]

Sorry, lots going on with work. It occurs to me that maybe we should rename the Siege of Elensefar? If the problem is that players are misconstruing the title, perhaps instead of adding dialogue to forcibly suggest a different strategy, we just don't imply a siege in the first place?

[zookeeper]

Scenarios 2, 3, 4, 5a and 5b all look pretty good to me so I don't have any particular requests regarding them. In SoE, there's really only one major thing I think needs changing:

I think the details of what happened to the sceptre should not be told yet. A lot of time has passed between SoF and HttT and the details of the sceptre's creation and how it got lost seem like they should at this point remain unknown (for the player that is; Delfador and Kalenz probably know quite a bit about that) in order to give it a bit more of that mythical artifact vibe. Could be as simple as this:

The Scepter of Fire is the most ancient artifact of the realm of Wesnoth. It was forged by the dwarves of Knalga at the request of King Haldric II. It took their finest smiths years to make it, and was said to contain amazing power. None know exactly what occurred, but before the completed Sceptre could be delivered to the King, it was lost somewhere in the great caverns along with its makers.

There will be plenty of time during the underground scenarios to discuss all the details, after all.

[vodot]

[lots]

Wow, nice. Any thoughts on my version? This is just the first go— and I think you put much more thought into resolving the, um, 'ludicrousity' that we both observed.

Sorry, lots going on with work. It occurs to me that maybe we should rename the Siege of Elensefar? If the problem is that players are misconstruing the title, perhaps instead of adding dialogue to forcibly suggest a different strategy, we just don't imply a siege in the first place?

That was my original suggestion after playing this scenario for the first time (on hard, ouch)- but then I saw Faello reload my save and smash the AI with only two losses. Now I'm not sure.

...less detail re: SoF

how about this:

Delfador
The Scepter of Fire is the greatest artifact of ancient Wesnoth. Ages ago at the request of your forefather king Haldric II, dwarves wrought the Scepter of Fire in the deep forges of Knalga. Long years passed in their labor, but at last they completed it; the finished scepter is said to have contained wondrous power— but it was never delivered to the king, lost somewhere amidst the great caverns along with all knowledge of its whereabouts.

[Pewskeepski]

(Feedback for Princess of Wesnoth)

In the second story part line, "an sensation" should be "a sensation".

I don't understand why Li'sar refers to Konrad as "boy". He's twenty-something years old and so is she, so I don't think it'd be very practical for her to call a man who's the same age as her something that generally means 'young'.

Liking the new arrogant Li'sar, and I think it will be interesting to see her change through the campaign.

[vodot]

In the second story part line, "an sensation" should be "a sensation".

Ayup, fixed in v0.31.

I don't understand why Li'sar refers to Konrad as "boy". He's twenty-something years old and so is she, so I don't think it'd be very practical for her to call a man who's the same age as her something that generally means 'young'.

It's condescension, and yes, it's hypocritical. Too much? I'm hoping to gradually transition her out of it, just like...

Liking the new arrogant Li'sar, and I think it will be interesting to see her change through the campaign. :)

Thanks for the feedback!

[zookeeper]

Groggy_Dice has some good ideas there, some of which could be incorporated. However, I think your current version works pretty well, except for the remark about just leaving her being murder which is a bit strange considering that the map is filled with villages and she wouldn't be completely alone anyway. Maybe you could combine Konrad's willingness to let her live as a show of goodwill, concern for her safety if she is taken as a prisoner, and it being a long walk to the next fort or garrison (so that she can't just immediately get backup and pursue them) as the rationale for letting her go.

For the Valley of Death, maybe there ought to be more of an explanation for why it's in the hands of undead than just "they've been roaming there as of late". Maybe something special happened there in the recent past, which Li'sar would know about but Konrad's party wouldn't.

...less detail re: SoF

how about this:

Delfador
The Scepter of Fire is the greatest artifact of ancient Wesnoth. Ages ago at the request of your forefather king Haldric II, dwarves wrought the Scepter of Fire in the deep forges of Knalga. Long years passed in their labor, but at last they completed it; the finished scepter is said to have contained wondrous power— but it was never delivered to the king, lost somewhere amidst the great caverns along with all knowledge of its whereabouts.

Yeah, that's good.