The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesnoth?

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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby wesfreak » November 6th, 2010, 11:01 pm

I think it's much simpler than that: If it's dead, it can be reanimated by a sufficiently skilled necromancer (or zombified by a walking corpse). If it's undead, it can't be. (although I never really understood that: Why can't undead be re-reanimated?)
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Midnight_Carnival » November 7th, 2010, 7:19 am

something can't be magical by nature without having been somehow influenced by magic

yes, but...
All units with arcane weakness either came from the spirit-world, or are animated by magic (undead).

So... Trolls originally came from the spirit world but didn't use their magic to influence their development much, hence the 'clumsy house built on wood' analogy.

seen a troll skeleton ...?

Yeah, actually I did, in versions older than 1.4 Troll Whelps turn into skeletons before they die :lol2: .

I assume they have similar anatomy because I'm lazy ok. I'm no biologist or bioengineer who could come up with a plausible other system, so I work with what I know and modify it. Mind you, a hydrostatic skeleton would explain the low impact resistance, but then they'd have a hellava low piercing resistance too.

I don't want to get into the impact and armor thing, I got my ass so flamed on the 'falling off a horse in armor' debate it still hurts. But I think a thick skin would absorb some of the shock, think leather.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby wesfreak » November 7th, 2010, 12:55 pm

The problem with that is that spirits don't have physical bodies. What could have a spirit posessed to create a troll? If it was one of the current creatures, like an ogre, for example, then there would have to have been quite alot of magical development. (Although we could say that over time they became less and less magical, like the elves.)
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Midnight_Carnival » November 8th, 2010, 9:04 am

...only if we make the assumption that spirits came and posessed things to make magical races. Trolls could, for example have warped in from a magical realm, been made by one of those demented Red-Mages who keeps yelling at you to get off his land, come to life as a result of excess magic being 'spilt' when something really magical happened, been the result of one of those oh-so-nasty "...and your decendants for all time!" curses or been a magical fusion of, stuff like rocks and Ogres or some such. After that they did not use magic to develop or change and were not changed or developed magically. As pointed out earlier, there isn't reall such a need for Trolls to change a lot.
They just kind of exist, there's probalby luminous Moon-Trolls orbiting Wesnoth and thinking their deep thougths.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby wesfreak » November 8th, 2010, 8:26 pm

My origin of species is completely based of the assumption that spirits came and posessed things. If I deviate from that, than there is no consistency.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Midnight_Carnival » November 9th, 2010, 6:02 am

Life's inconsistent...
and it doesn't always make sense. If you get an explaination for something chances are it's wrong or it makes even less sense.

Trollz Iz.
'Umons wot tink dey'z clevva iz not. Datz wy we eatz dem.
:lol2:
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby jean5 » February 6th, 2011, 7:59 am

Another possibility is maybe experiments from the Argazars (from IftU), we knows that these are genius geneticists, maybe the ancestors of the currents dwarves, elves humans, trolls... Are experiments of the Argazars, much like the Shaxthals?
I recognize that why they would have created these species it's uncertain, maybe just to test their skills?
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby thespaceinvader » February 6th, 2011, 12:00 pm

Erm... IftU takes places several thousand years in the future from mainline wesnoth ;)
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby jean5 » February 7th, 2011, 11:23 am

Yes, but the informations in the library they (if I remember correctly)that they are the first intelligent species in irdya, and that they know much about genetic, so much tha they can create now species like shaxtals.
In the time of IftU, the Argazars are alls dead, this part is only a flashback.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby StDrake » February 7th, 2011, 11:31 am

That's something to take care of in fu..fixing holes in wesnoth lores. We could of course link Argazars to the ancient mages mentionned the Delfadors Memoirs, but the time range between IfTU and those could be tens if not hundreds of millenia..It would be simplier to assume that Argazars were just a little aloof and overconfident of their primarity.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Wesbane » February 7th, 2011, 12:51 pm

wesfreak wrote:My origin of species is completely based of the assumption that spirits came and possessed things. If I deviate from that, than there is no consistency.

Actually this what can be found in theory about wesnoth world is already inconsistent. If sentence below is true:
thespaceinvader wrote:[...]Elves and Dwarves and Humans are different SPECIES. By definition, that means that they cannot interbreed (or, at best, they can produce only sterile offspring, but even that is unlikely).

And probably it is since half-elves are not mentioned in this theory. But that lead to conclusion how some facts in game world are possible like this described in epilogue of Northern Rebirth. That Tallin which is human and Eryssa elven sorceress had son?
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby StDrake » February 7th, 2011, 1:19 pm

As long as their son doesn't have children of his own (unless adopted) that part remains consistent.
Meanwhile I'm trying to put some of the ideas above together into a consistent whole to describe in another chapter of Fun With Salt, but a few things are still missing - naga, saurians..and perhaps merfolk, though a theory about them being in close relation to elves (separated strain whose habitat sank and they readapted to the new enviroment) seems plausible.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Wesbane » February 8th, 2011, 1:53 am

StDrake wrote:As long as their son doesn't have children of his own (unless adopted) that part remains consistent.

Consistent? Are you sure about this? I mean if all of this is true than it should be well known fact that such kind of relation have no future since its certain that for so many years someone would try it out. If it so then it should be just forbidden by law, culture or religion. Although there is not much focus on the last one in wesnoth. Its hardly to suppose that anyone who knowing consequence of this would want to bring nothing but suffer on their own children. So now to the point I really can understand that young and simple man, without extensive knowledge about surrounding world might be not familiar with this facts. That elven sorceress might be so blinded by her feelings that she can ignore her knowledge. But Elenia? After all she is her sister and should have her head on right place in this particular situation. And even if not because of possibility of her death there is still Father Morvin and sister Thera. They are characters that possess or where granted with great power, what is really irrelevant how it is they have it. The important thing is that as mages they actually suppose to knew that liaison between human and elf will not lead to anything good. But no, they delightfully supported Tallin decision. What makes them simply dumbest or most devious persons in wesnoth world since they use Tallin feelings against him. In that second case if it comes to true evil Malifor could learn much from them. More over if all about this kind of relationships is true this would have negative impact on connections with all northern elves. There is difficult to even believe that elven ruler would consider Tallin anything else but an abomination who defile his beloved daughter. In this circumstances can be only one result. At best cutting all ties with dirty humans and all who supported them and spiking with arrows any human at sight. But her father loves her so she still could return. This that some stinker was touching her can be forgiven. Although its not the same as remaining pure from dirt you can always wash... Of course sending an army and providing a gold for a ransom to rescue princess from the hands of orcs have also political aspects but its doubtful that this is the only reason in given facts. However its not enough embarrassment for her father an elvish princess give birth to no elf, even no human, but aberration... Some kind of pitiful freak. This is just an insolence for all elves that can't be forgotten. A final border that can't be crossed. Could you even imagine something worse? This would make them just fun and warning for any other elves. After this Eryssa just have to spend rest of her life with those dirty humans and disgusting dwarfs because she died for her father and best what she can do is really die.
Seriously there is a plenty of characters that could say something on this subject like those two liches, despite they are shady or Camerin, but in other hand he is unbalanced a bit and its not certain that he survived to this point. Anyway it is strange that in this cheerful band of morons there is no one except Hamel who have some objections of not highest importance against Tallin marriage with Eryssa.
Taurus was finding this a very good, exultant ending. However informations in this topic input something absolutely opposite. This is the worst ending ever. No mainline and add-ons campaign can't beat this. It is really hard to imagine some more disastrous ending. As stated above no one who supported Tallin want to from their reasons point out that he is making a hugest mistake in his life. Elenia probably because she is jealous about Eryssa or something. Who knows? Northern Alliance is nothing to elves but an offence and anyone who belongs to it is not welcome by them at least. Morvin and Thera shows white mages from completely new perspective. As for Tallin and Eryssa marriage filled with serene this is questionable too. At some point their son have to ask question why they decided to live together. To make him like this? Is it was for love or maybe just making love?
In epilogue there is sentence that there where many legends written about their son. If this event really happened in game world I think I know one of this legends: Elven Blood. Since the only possible solution for taking away shame from northern elves is war.
But maybe everything perfectly fits. And I do not understand all this happiness concept?
Last edited by Wesbane on October 11th, 2011, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby thespaceinvader » February 8th, 2011, 9:37 am

Please bear in mind that Tallin and Elyssa were discussed earlier in this thread. I'm of the opinion that their son should be adopted, or at the very least infertile.
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Re: The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesn

Postby Wesbane » February 8th, 2011, 2:32 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:Please bear in mind that Tallin and Eryssa were discussed earlier in this thread. I'm of the opinion that their son should be adopted, or at the very least infertile.

Its not the point. Maybe I wrong express my thoughts. This is not about what things should be possible in wesnoth world, but that story in Northern Rebirth is consistent when we apply facts from this thread to it. What actually is known:
esr wrote:If there's strong sentiment for eliminating the exception, that can be done (that is, we can delete Tallin and Eryssa's son from the NR epilogue). But I think it has dramatic possibilities that shouldn't be lightly discarded.

This statement simply inputs that effects of this event just can't be positive. If we consider that Northern Rebirth should have a happy ending story is inconsistent. I will repeat once again. We can safely assume that most of Tallin companions is simple enough to believe that their champion know consequence of binding his life with elf, despite of fact he does not. And all in all they will forgive him this strange choice because he is a hero. That Eryssa fall in love to him so much that she ignores that facts. That Abhai is not interested with affairs of living. That Krash do not cares about anything despite battle. Camerin is just to busy with entertaining himself. Ro'Arthian and Ro'Sothian must know about this but really they had plenty of reason to keep this to themselves. But Elenia silence? Someone just broke an arrow and if there are some factions inside northern elves in that moment someone is jumping for power! Thera and Morvin? If we reject possibility that they are mentally [censored] we have to admit that they are masters of deception and are playing a game of their own which scale can't be even dimly comprehended by those who lived in that time. Tallin might be a human hero, admired by dwarves and be an important person, but he has one huge defect that can not be fixed. His a human. And engaging of elven princess in barren relation is just wrong. Elves would never forgive or forger such an insult.
So maybe its not suppose to be a happy ending? If so then this is most original ending ever since most characters in this story at the end are simply someone different then they appeared at beginning. True motives of their behaviour are never reviled to the player. In fact most honourable characters in this campaign are insane sorcerer Malifor and power hungry orcish chieftain. They are at least honestly evil. Tallin and Eryssa are first tragic characters in wesnoth. As they were just used as pawns.
Straight to the bottom:
    Story consistency in Northern Rebirth in my humble opinion depends of perception of its ending. So what official perception of marriage between Tallin and Eryssa is in wesnoth world and why?
    Is marriage of Tallin and Eryssa is so important event in game that can't be omitted?
I'm asking about it since I'm working on unofficial fork of Northern Rebirth and I just would like to know that marriage of Tallin and Eryssa have or will have so great impact on wesnoth history that I like it or not I have to allow this to happen in side branch of a campaign?
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