The Origin of (Wesnoth) Species, or: Half-Breeds in Wesnoth?

[johndh]

People hate what they consider unnatural. That's why we see people so strongly protesting genetically-modified crops despite the higher yields and resistance to pests, etc. How much more unnatural can you get than necromancy? Also, consider that the punishment for witchcraft has been death in many cultures around the world (and still is in some who believe in it). I don't think a mutator mage would last long in Wesnoth or on Earth, and hybrids would probably be seen as unholyarcane abominations. Sure, some humans might have an attraction to elves (the ones who can get over the weird proportions and scary eyes), but in many (probably most) places on Earth even interracial children carry a stigma about them. Human-on-elf baby-making is something closer to having children with a space alien rather than having children with someone of another (human) race, and on top of that we're talking about a setting modeled after an era that birthed the Spanish Inquisition. Tolerance is not a strong point in Terran humanity, so I don't think it would be in Wesnoth either.

[Midnight_Carnival]

...because not all Wesnoth races are Human?

On the subject of half-breeds/hybrids. In TRoW campaign there is a vampire. Vampires can make other vampires. Is it only Humans who can turn into vampires, or can Elves/Dwarves/Orcs/Trolls/Drakes and anything else that can leave behind a walking corpse turn into a vamp?

As for Elves being closer anatomically to Humans than Dwarves... Human males, like Dwarves (only the males I hope!) grow beards, Elves do not. Humans can become obese, as can Dwarves, Elves can not, like Dwarves, there can be considerable variation in the appearance of Humans, Elves look like something that was created during WWII in a secret German laboratory, all tall, blonde-hair, blue eyes (sometimes yellow, brown or green). Dwarves could pass for scaled-down Humans, Elves look differnet to most Humans.

[pauxlo]

On the subject of half-breeds/hybrids. In TRoW campaign there is a vampire.

The vampire lady on the island?

Vampires can make other vampires.

This may be so in other lore, but we now nothing about this for Wesnoth. The only thing we new is that they suck blood (like the vampire bats) to get some live force back.

Is it only Humans who can turn into vampires, or can Elves/Dwarves/Orcs/Trolls/Drakes and anything else that can leave behind a walking corpse turn into a vamp?

At least for the stats of this vampire lady, she does not turn anything to vampire.
It was speculated that vampirism is an elvish form of necromancydark magic (since this vampire lady was there before the humans came, and at least the sprite looks like she has elvish ears).

As for Elves being closer anatomically to Humans than Dwarves... Human males, like Dwarves (only the males I hope!) grow beards, Elves do not. Humans can become obese, as can Dwarves, Elves can not, like Dwarves, there can be considerable variation in the appearance of Humans, Elves look like something that was created during WWII in a secret German laboratory, all tall, blonde-hair, blue eyes (sometimes yellow, brown or green). Dwarves could pass for scaled-down Humans, Elves look differnet to most Humans.

Yeah, humans look like a mixture of elves and dwarves, combining the bad points of both.
(For now, we have not seen any female dwarves, but I'm not sure why the should not have beards.)

[Midnight_Carnival]

The vampire lady on the island?

she's pretty Sponge Bob!

So vampire Elves, yes, vampire Dwarves? (probalby not, they eat tons of garlic) also, there is so much fuss about Elf-Human hybrids, but nothing mentioned about Dwarf-Human hybrids. I think these are more likely. Elvish males are tall and handsome, Dwarvish males are rich, which one do you think human women will go after?

[Myrien]

The vampire lady on the island?

she's pretty Sponge Bob!

So vampire Elves, yes, vampire Dwarves? (probalby not, they eat tons of garlic) also, there is so much fuss about Elf-Human hybrids, but nothing mentioned about Dwarf-Human hybrids. I think these are more likely. Elvish males are tall and handsome, Dwarvish males are rich, which one do you think human women will go after?

I think it will depend on the human woman's surroundings while she grew up, but I don't think all Dwarvish male are rich. Remember the miners in SoF? I don't think they are particulary rich. The ones who play an important role in campaigns, e.g. the lords and commanders, are all rich - but their common involvement in campaigns is only existent because riches come with a high position, and with a high position, the ability to change the course of major events.

[johndh]

On Earth, the difference between average-sized folks and dwarfs/midgets/little people (the preferred term varies depending on who you ask) is often a single chromosomal mutation. Dwarves and humans on Irdya could be extremely close biologically, to the point of being the very same species with a mutation. If that were true, they would be able to mix freely from a biological standpoint. However, there would most likely be no such thing as a half-dwarf because you either have the gene or you don't (IRL, having a single copy results in dwarfism, and having two results in infant or prenatal death). I'm not saying Wesnothian dwarves have the same mutations as real-life little people (or else many of their children would be born full-sized), but rather that it's possible that they have something along a similar vein, which causes them to stay short. Once this gene was introduced into the population, it would be selected for because it provides an advantage in the cold mountains and in caves, as stocky body types conserve heat better (compare the Inuit to equatorial Africans) and can fit in smaller tunnels without bending over.

I'm not necessarily in favor of human-on-dwarf breeding being possible in Wesnoth, but it's certainly not far-fetched.

[thespaceinvader]

That's a single-gene mutation. But achondroplasia 1: doesn't breed true. It's a dominant condition, which means people with it having children with an unaffected person have a 50 per cent chance of having an unaffected child. People with it having children together have either a 1/4 or 1/3 chance of having an unaffected child - I can't remember whether homozygous achondroplasia is lethal or not. 2: is a DISEASE. There are very few to no ways that people can be significantly less than normally sized when adult without it adversely affecting their health.

For it to be a true-breeding state that doesn't cause health issues (indeed, dwarves are longer-lived, tougher and stronger than humans) would take many thousands if not millions of years. The whole body would have to adapt to the necessity of being smaller. Bones, organs, muscles, circulatory system, nervous system etc etc etc. It wouldn't be as simple as a single gene. It COULD be, but it's next to impossible. You'd also see quite frequently humans having dwarf children at random, and vice versa. Even then, half-dwarves would not be possible, it's all-or-nothing.

Trained in human genetics here I already have a solid genetic explanation for the major orc/minor orc/goblin distinction in mind =D

[johndh]

That's a single-gene mutation. But achondroplasia 1: doesn't breed true. It's a dominant condition, which means people with it having children with an unaffected person have a 50 per cent chance of having an unaffected child. People with it having children together have either a 1/4 or 1/3 chance of having an unaffected child - I can't remember whether homozygous achondroplasia is lethal or not. 2: is a DISEASE. There are very few to no ways that people can be significantly less than normally sized when adult without it adversely affecting their health.

Yes, it wouldn't be achondroplasia per se, but something vaguely similar. AFAIK, homozygous achondroplasia is always fatal during or before infancy, so it wouldn't be possible for a population to sustain itself with that particular kind of dwarfism homogeneously because everyone has to have at least one "tall" gene (so there would indeed be lots of tall members of that population). Wesnothian dwarfism doesn't necessarily have to work that way (right?). Perhaps the tall gene would be bred out because tall pre-dwarves would freeze in the cold winters of the northern mountains. If Wesnothian dwarfism is recessive, then this would mean that the only survivors would be homozygous dwarves. Granted, this would probably take an awfully long time for all the tall ones to die out, unless there was some kind of Fimbulwinter-esque cataclysm and the only survivors were stocky and huddles in caves for shelter, in which case it might occur pretty quickly.

For it to be a true-breeding state that doesn't cause health issues (indeed, dwarves are longer-lived, tougher and stronger than humans) would take many thousands if not millions of years. The whole body would have to adapt to the necessity of being smaller. Bones, organs, muscles, circulatory system, nervous system etc etc etc. It wouldn't be as simple as a single gene. It COULD be, but it's next to impossible. You'd also see quite frequently humans having dwarf children at random, and vice versa. Even then, half-dwarves would not be possible, it's all-or-nothing.

True, other adaptations might take a while, depending on how advantageous the long-living and tough-as-nails traits are to them. It seems to me that dwarves take the "live a long time and be hard to kill" approach to survival as a species, in contrast to orcs' "have so many offspring that some of them are bound to live" idea. Maybe food is scarce where they live, and having a lot of children results in starvation and lots of easy targets for gryphons, ogres, and giant bats. I have no idea how much different this would make them from humans in terms of chromosomes and whatnot. (The term k-selection seems to stick in my mind, but I'm not sure if that's the same thing.) Dwarves could be very different genetically, perhaps to the point of being in a different genus, like foxes and jackals. It also seems possible that they're the corgi to our border collie. I guess it's kind of up in the air.

Trained in human genetics here I already have a solid genetic explanation for the major orc/minor orc/goblin distinction in mind =D

You have my attention...

[thespaceinvader]

PMed to avoid further distraction from the original topic.

[tr0ll]

People hate what they consider unnatural. That's why we see people so strongly protesting genetically-modified crops despite the higher yields and resistance to pests, etc. How much more unnatural can you get than necromancy? Also, consider that the punishment for witchcraft has been death in many cultures around the world (and still is in some who believe in it). ... but in many (probably most) places on Earth even interracial children carry a stigma about them. Human-on-elf baby-making is something closer to having children with a space alien rather than having children with someone of another (human) race, and on top of that we're talking about a setting modeled after an era that birthed the Spanish Inquisition. Tolerance is not a strong point in Terran humanity, so I don't think it would be in Wesnoth either.

Well persecution of witchcraft was more a power game by men of the nobility and Church against local healers (especially women) who espoused natural traditional medicines and reasonable ideas such as not working people to death. However i must underline your point about interracial halfbreeds - i am one and it definitely was a problem in my parents younger days, not so much anymore.

None of this says some of Wesnoth's peoples couldnt be more tolerant, especially in the face of such diversity of intelligent life. I would be more inclined to believe elves attitude (if any) against cavorting with other races stems from hard experience with greedy brutish invaders and destroyers of forest rather than narrow minded prejudice. On the other side, humans (and probably orcs if i read the culture correctly) will rape anything that speaks after a battle just to dominate them and in peacetime for other vulgar reasons, so if breeding is possible at all it would have happened. We just need word from the gods of Wesnoth whether it is possible.

[johndh]

On the other side, humans (and probably orcs if i read the culture correctly) will rape anything that speaks after a battle just to dominate them and in peacetime for other vulgar reasons, so if breeding is possible at all it would have happened. We just need word from the gods of Wesnoth whether it is possible.

Good point. Whether or not it produces any offspring, rape is a powerful tool of psychological warfare. The orcs probably use it an awful lot, considering their aggression and constant breeding. If human-orc hybrids were possible, we'd probably have seen a bunch of them by now.

[Midnight_Carnival]

Yuk!

[StDrake]

Combine that with tsi's workings on orc genetics and top up with the mixing of orcs 'dominance' genes with their human counterparts being lethal (ie orc A and B needs to be paired with another A or B, mixing it with H results in a crash). Presto! One hybrid possibility less regardless of all other.

[thespaceinvader]

No. Orcs and humans cannot interbreed with any success at all. Let that be an end to the discussion, seriously.

[wesfreak]

We can safely assume that humans, dwarves, orcs, ogres, naga and saurians all evolved naturally on Irdia since none of them have an arcane weakness. Moreover, orcs, dwarves and ogres can hardly use magic (dwarves can only use runic magic and orcish shamen are extremely rare, while there are no known ogre mages.) We can also assume that they're all (except saurians and naga of course) at the very least distantly related.

Here comes the speculation: (based mostly on wesnoth's lore and some stuff I remember reading in Shadowmaster's invasion from the unknown). Every few thousand (or some large amount) of years spirits can cross over from the spirit world (the crossing over could be made possible by the physical world becoming closer to the spirit world, caused by solar or planetary events. (my guess is when all the planets in the solar system line up)). When these spirits cross over, perhaps just one or two, perhaps thousands that have foreseen and prepared for this event, eager to cross over, they become in need of physical bodies and can possess an animal, providing it isn't intellgent. My theory is that at the first geocentric planetary alignment a few powerful spirits crossed over to become the first dragons, which led to drakes in the way described by wesnoth cannon.
At the second alignment thousands of weaker spirits crossed over. Most of these spirits ended up in forests and possessed monkeys, turning them into the first elves. (The spirits could have used magic to change their physical bodies to their own advantage, almost as if it were a magically enhanced version of evolution. They could have ended up with an optimal form for walking on land yet living in the forests, ending up as the elves we see today. (and the faeries in invasion from the unknown) Their magical nature gave them both keener senses and prolonged lifespans.) Over time most elves lost their connection with the spirit world by not using magic enough, leaving only residual power. Elvish shamen and sorcerers remain in touch with their magical nature, and, when they become powerful enough, can alter their form like the first spirits did, whether unconsciously or purposely, to become sylphs and shydes (in other words, getting wings.)
Meanwhile some spirits decided to possess trees and became wosses.

This leaves two possible explanation for the creation of mermen: One, that some of the spirits that crossed over the second time around posessed fish, and developed from there like elves did in forests. This is kind of unlikely, because it's a much further way along from fish to merman than it is from monkey to elf. Another is that some early elves decided to, for whichever reason, cross over into the water, and used their magic to give themselves fish tails.

As for trolls: Again, two possibilities. One, that some of the spirits chose to make themselves a body out of earth, like others possessed trees.Another would be that some early dwarves went to the elves for new bodies of their own that were better suited for the caves and mountains. The elves turned them into the first trolls.

This leaves the nature of magic itself: Most magic comes from the original spirit world, like elf magic. Troll shaman use the magic left over from their transformation, and saurians use the magic inherently present in drakes (which is left over from when dragons crossed over) to fuel their own magic.
When the spirits crossed over, the essence of magic from their world crossed over too. Over time it bound itself to the physical world, and this is the magic that humans use.