Missing in-game race descriptions in the BfW help.

[Darker_Dreams]

I decided to go through the critique in detail, and felt like some of it could use response. If it seems like most of it isn't corrections, that's because I'm still focused on the "What are the Wose" part of the discussion, not the "clean up description and grammar" part, plus, as happens, I disagree with some of your comments.

Critique

ancient and reclusive race who are tree-like in appearance

* of tree-like appearance
Minor nitpick.

I think this is a six of one half dozen the other thing all about style.

This ability to pass unobserved can be best attributed to their close resemblance to the vegetation around them.

Kinda word salad-ish. 'best attributed'? You mean there are other reasons, apart from the fact that Woses look like trees?

It might be word salad, but I think you're picking at the wrong bit. There are certainly other things it can be attributed to; magic, knowing where to stand/hide, being aware enough of their environment to not do something actively not-tree-like when someone is around they don't want to see.

They are, rather, close beings of faerie and close relatives to the Elves. The eldest Woses repeat tales told by their forerunners in which they were Elves once, describing a transformation much like that still seen in those who become Shyde.

This stuff you made up. They're faerie, yes, but not Elf-related. The Wose unit description says so, and there's no indication anywhere I know of to support your point.

There's no indication that it isn't true either. So I wound up an interesting idea and pitched it. ~shrugs~

to faerie

to the faerie world / faerie realm
Again, minor nitpick.

in many settings/worlds/whatnot the term "Faerie" when used as a place is relates to the faerie world/faerie realm. Maybe Wesnoth doesn't want to use that, but it's where it came from. 'taking someone away to Faerie' is not a new construction.

font

Do you mean, "fount"? Because that would make more sense than 'font'.

no, I meant font.

Similarly this font of magic can be disrupted by Arcane attacks which are intensely painful to these fae beings.

No one in the Wesnoth-verse except for maybe Dacyn actually uses the term "Arcane attacks". Just refer to them as magic disruptions. Remember, these are supposed to be written from an in-world perspective (and, usually, a Wesnothian perspective).

You're right, this was me being lazy and short handing.
Similarly this font of magic can be disrupted by anything which disrupts magic. Such things are intensely painful to these fae beings.

While most Woses are unable to actively channel their internal magic there are a few exceptional individuals who are able to summon up and control the energy within them to effect the natural world.

This is kinda more vague than mine, and they don't actually manipulate the energy of the faerie world like Sorceress-types, they just summon already-existing natural life to their aid.

It is more vague than yours. I chose to spend the words on racial features rather than unit features. Beyond that I kicked into a place intellectually where you have to spend energy to change your environment. The source of that internal energy isn't clearly defined, as far as I'm concerned they draw it from the life around them reflexively like you or I breath. That could be specified, but you already ping me for getting into nuance and minutiae.

First, it causes them to take the long view on situations. It is not unknown for Wose to spend decades or centuries contemplating the growth in a clearing or valley.

Not really. Elilmaldur expected to be able to hold the Oldwood with his handful of Woses against the ceaseless tide of Orcs, just because the first host had been defeated (that too with Haldric's help). A pretty ridiculous thought, and definitely not farsighted. They're able to take decisions as quickly and as short-sightedly as any of the other races, as far as their two major campaign appearances go.

yeah, you describe creatures that can remain dormant for centuries, it's pretty widely accepted they live nigh-forever if not exposed to violence. This leads to a whole discussion about the characterization in fantasy of nigh-immortal beings with 0 forethought, which is probably beyond us here, but not beyond tvtropes. That said, it can be taken out.

This can be disconcerting to members of shorter lived races if they discover that the ancient tree which has stood above their village for generations untold has been a silent observer which has seen their people struggle and survive difficulty and tragedy.

Not really. I think the people would just be very surprised if their ancient tree got up and left, not disconcerted. And as long as they didn't know that it was a Wose, what did they expect it to do during their tragedies anyway?

I don't know about you, but if grandpa's favorite shade tree up and walked away I would be disconcerted. You say you'd be surprised...
The "difficulties and tragedy" bit was a specific thought I had which I don't think I translated well. Essentially, it's just there to underscore the "not my problem" attitude they can get. It can go too.

Their plantlike nature also shapes how Wose reproduce; a process by which individuals grow a small bud which develops, feeding from the parent's life energy, until it develops into a separate font. Once the new font within the bud is able to carry on without the parent the bud is grafted to a sapling which becomes a new Wose within a matter of days.

I like this part. Though, again, there's not much indication towards this reproduction-by-budding idea, though there does exist a Wose Sapling unit.

There's no evidence for how Wose reproduce at all aside from the Sapling unit. Seems like a glaring omission to me.

[johndh]

You've produced generally quite a nice description of the merfolk! I've only got a little quibble about the word "nude". My understanding is that they wouldn't view it as nudeness but rather as their natural state, normal as opposed to the special, not natural state of clothed-ness. That's also reflected in the design of the armour where they favour roman-styled muscle cuirasses.

I appreciate the approval! I chose the word "nude" because it seemed less judgmental than "naked", and to me it doesn't imply an unusual state, but there may be different cultural connotations, so I can try to make it work without it. How about this?

"Clothing itself is a sign of status among the merfolk and many materials are prioritized for more practical applications, so commoners usually go without it. The clothes merfolk do wear serve to decorate the natural form, not to shroud it, as they see nothing vulgar about the body in its natural state. This is also reflected in the design of their armor, which mimics the musculature it protects. The wealthy adorn themselves..."

I think it works just fine as a list of the three things that we know for certain. Breaking it up would mean we'd have three sentences that all start with different ways of saying "We also know that..." An alternative I might accept is to have a colon somewhere

I didn't say it's wrong and to just break it up. These are complete thoughts that can be developed but are being disposed of in a list.

I could develop them, but the whole point is that these are all we know for sure, and I think a short list emphasizes that what we know isn't much. "We know three things about George: he likes to punch people, he sells grills, and all of his sons are named George. Other than that, he's a mystery."

"The ruins of ancient naga temples lead scholars to believe this race once built a mighty empire. Little is known about this nation, as there is no known written language more advanced than simple pictographs."
Half the commas and not terribly ugly. I feel there's more that could be done here but I'm not finding the inspiration.

How about this? "They are not known to have a written language beyond simple pictographs, so much of their past is unknown. While scholars know very little about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation." Still two commas, but it's broken up into two distinct thoughts, whereas the temple thing was awkwardly tacked on the end before.

The Woses

The wose description goes more heavily into speculation (or more specifically, stating speculation as fact) than I prefer. If you'd like to generate new lore about woses, I have no objection to that, but it would probably best be done in another thread.

[Skrim]

The Woses

The wose description goes more heavily into speculation (or more specifically, stating speculation as fact) than I prefer. If you'd like to generate new lore about woses, I have no objection to that, but it would probably best be done in another thread.

Exactly. If you want to use stuff gleaned from pre-existing lore (campaigns and unit descriptions), then you can use my description. If you want to generate new stuff on Woses, that belongs in a separate thread where Wose lore is hashed out before we make a race description for them (kinda like how Drake lore was hashed out before their new unit descriptions came out).

I decided to go through the critique in detail, and felt like some of it could use response. If it seems like most of it isn't corrections, that's because I'm still focused on the "What are the Wose" part of the discussion, not the "clean up description and grammar" part, plus, as happens, I disagree with some of your comments.

Critique

* of tree-like appearance
Minor nitpick.

I think this is a six of one half dozen the other thing all about style.

Kinda word salad-ish. 'best attributed'? You mean there are other reasons, apart from the fact that Woses look like trees?

It might be word salad, but I think you're picking at the wrong bit. There are certainly other things it can be attributed to; magic, knowing where to stand/hide, being aware enough of their environment to not do something actively not-tree-like when someone is around they don't want to see.

This stuff you made up. They're faerie, yes, but not Elf-related. The Wose unit description says so, and there's no indication anywhere I know of to support your point.

There's no indication that it isn't true either. So I wound up an interesting idea and pitched it. ~shrugs~

to the faerie world / faerie realm
Again, minor nitpick.

in many settings/worlds/whatnot the term "Faerie" when used as a place is relates to the faerie world/faerie realm. Maybe Wesnoth doesn't want to use that, but it's where it came from. 'taking someone away to Faerie' is not a new construction.

Do you mean, "fount"? Because that would make more sense than 'font'.

no, I meant font.

No one in the Wesnoth-verse except for maybe Dacyn actually uses the term "Arcane attacks". Just refer to them as magic disruptions. Remember, these are supposed to be written from an in-world perspective (and, usually, a Wesnothian perspective).

You're right, this was me being lazy and short handing.
Similarly this font of magic can be disrupted by anything which disrupts magic. Such things are intensely painful to these fae beings.

This is kinda more vague than mine, and they don't actually manipulate the energy of the faerie world like Sorceress-types, they just summon already-existing natural life to their aid.

It is more vague than yours. I chose to spend the words on racial features rather than unit features. Beyond that I kicked into a place intellectually where you have to spend energy to change your environment. The source of that internal energy isn't clearly defined, as far as I'm concerned they draw it from the life around them reflexively like you or I breath. That could be specified, but you already ping me for getting into nuance and minutiae.

Not really. Elilmaldur expected to be able to hold the Oldwood with his handful of Woses against the ceaseless tide of Orcs, just because the first host had been defeated (that too with Haldric's help). A pretty ridiculous thought, and definitely not farsighted. They're able to take decisions as quickly and as short-sightedly as any of the other races, as far as their two major campaign appearances go.

yeah, you describe creatures that can remain dormant for centuries, it's pretty widely accepted they live nigh-forever if not exposed to violence. This leads to a whole discussion about the characterization in fantasy of nigh-immortal beings with 0 forethought, which is probably beyond us here, but not beyond tvtropes. That said, it can be taken out.

Not really. I think the people would just be very surprised if their ancient tree got up and left, not disconcerted. And as long as they didn't know that it was a Wose, what did they expect it to do during their tragedies anyway?

I don't know about you, but if grandpa's favorite shade tree up and walked away I would be disconcerted. You say you'd be surprised...
The "difficulties and tragedy" bit was a specific thought I had which I don't think I translated well. Essentially, it's just there to underscore the "not my problem" attitude they can get. It can go too.

I like this part. Though, again, there's not much indication towards this reproduction-by-budding idea, though there does exist a Wose Sapling unit.

There's no evidence for how Wose reproduce at all aside from the Sapling unit. Seems like a glaring omission to me.

Not gonna comment about the made-up new lore vs existing lore stuff - already spoken about that above.

I still think the 'best attributed' part could be improved somehow.
As for the woses taking a 'long view' of things, I still consider them to be time-dissonant. They spend most of their peaceful time doing pretty much nothing, just standing around as if they were trees, and when they are forced to act, they do so as quickly, and potentially as wrongly, as a human would. So do Wesnoth's Elves, even though they're much longer-lived than humans, and Drakes and Saurians, even though they're shorter-lived than humans.
As for the disconcerted-humans thing, I get what you mean now. Peasant says "the Orcs burned down half our village and that Ancient Wose stood there and did nothing the entire time! " - I think you're talking about something along those lines. Still, it doesn't need to be in the race description, or at least needs some fixing.

The magic, fae-nature, Elf-relatedness, and reproduction of Woses belongs in the aforementioned new thread. That said, I do like the idea of them reproducing by budding to form Saplings.

[Darker_Dreams]

Naga

"Clothing itself is a sign of status among the merfolk and many materials are prioritized for more practical applications, so commoners usually go without it. The clothes merfolk do wear serve to decorate the natural form, not to shroud it, as they see nothing vulgar about the body in its natural state. This is also reflected in the design of their armor, which mimics the musculature it protects. The wealthy adorn themselves..."

I like that. The only change I'd make is dropping the comma (of course) before which.

I didn't say it's wrong and to just break it up. These are complete thoughts that can be developed but are being disposed of in a list.

I could develop them, but the whole point is that these are all we know for sure, and I think a short list emphasizes that what we know isn't much. "We know three things about George: he likes to punch people, he sells grills, and all of his sons are named George. Other than that, he's a mystery."

The thing is that these aren't three random facts- they're three observations that have a very clear impact on when we expect to meet these creatures and what we do when that happens. Eh, it works as-is, I just think there's a missed opportunity here.

How about this? "They are not known to have a written language beyond simple pictographs, so much of their past is unknown. While scholars know very little about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation." Still two commas, but it's broken up into two distinct thoughts, whereas the temple thing was awkwardly tacked on the end before.

"Because they are not known to have a written language beyond simple pictographs much of their past is unknown. The ruins of ancient naga temples lead scholars to believe that the race may have once had a mighty nation."

I keep feeling like this can be tightened down so it doesn't have so many dangling clauses.

Wose

I was originally going to do the wose stuff on another thread, but Skrim jumped in and started here so I kept with the conversation. I considered suggesting a separate thread for the discussion every time I posted. So, I started a thread for it.

[johndh]

Responses

I like that. The only change I'd make is dropping the comma (of course) before which.

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11 ... h-or-what/

The thing is that these aren't three random facts- they're three observations that have a very clear impact on when we expect to meet these creatures and what we do when that happens. Eh, it works as-is, I just think there's a missed opportunity here.

Well, wouldn't it be a bit contradictory to explain a whole lot of stuff that we know if I just said we don't know much? Besides, I don't think there's a whole lot more to be said about any of the three points. The most I could do is make each its own sentence, but there wouldn't be any new information gained by doing that. I could maybe expand it to say that "both sexes fight alongside one another in equal standing, but we don't know if this extends to other aspects of their society", which is just stating one more thing we don't know, which is redundant because I've already established we don't know anything else. I could also maybe say the reason that they settle in swamps and rivers because they bury their eggs in the mud, and while that may be an interesting tidbit, it's not particularly relevant and I don't feel that the description is missing anything by omitting it.

Added a geography section to the merfolk.

Merfolk

Something like a fusion between humans and fish, the merfolk are an enigmatic race with both piscine and humanoid attributes. They have strong tails that lend themselves to quick movement in any watery environment while their dextrous hands and intelligent minds allow fine craftsmanship and toolmaking. Semi-aquatic by nature, merfolk can breathe both water and air without difficulty. Despite being able to survive on land, they are much quicker and more agile in the water and will rarely be found far from the ocean. They are typically wary of dry land, as they are awkward and clumsy there and they struggle greatly to move over rough or forested terrain.

Society

The merfolk live in the shallow parts of the ocean, wary of the monsters that lurk in the deep. Their most frequent clashes are with the various aquatic beasts that roam their territories and with their rivals, the nagas.

Merfolk sustain themselves primarily through fishing and the skills they acquire with spears and nets translate very well to combat. The duties of the warrior are typically left to the mermen while their women, called mermaids, are unusually adept at magic. Their mastery of both the arcane and the elemental belies their faerie nature.

Due to the difficulty of mining and forging metal in the ocean, as well as protecting it from rust, it is a luxury typically restricted to the warrior class. Clothing itself is a sign of status among the merfolk and many materials are prioritized for more practical applications, so commoners usually go without it. The clothes merfolk do wear serve to decorate the natural form, not to shroud it, as they see nothing vulgar about the body in its natural state. This is also reflected in the design of their armor, which mimics the musculature it protects. The wealthy adorn themselves with clothes made from oceanic materials like seaweed and the skin of aquatic creatures. Females in particular favor decorations and ornamentation such as starfish, pearls, coral, and shells of various kinds. Merfolk trade with land-dwelling races for materials that are not readily available to them when they have a need.

Since they spend most of their time in the water, where ordinary speech would be useless, the merfolk have an airless language somewhat akin to the sounds of cetaceans. On the surface they are capable of producing human-like speech, which they use when dealing with non-mer.

Geography

Merfolk were first discovered by humans at the Bay of Pearls when Haldric I landed on the shores of the Great Continent, but they have been known to the elves and other races for far longer. Merfolk are the only intelligent race known to be able to breathe water, including both fresh and salt water. Their bodies are naturally resistant to the cold of the depths and their strong tails allow them to swim faster than most humans move on land. The combination of their tolerance for various environments and their ability to cover long distances gives them a wide range of aquatic habitats. Thus, merfolk can be found all along the coasts and major waterways of the Great Continent and perhaps beyond. Although they seem to favor shallow coastal waters, no one knows for sure how many merfolk inhabit the waters farther from land.

Minor tweaks to the nagas.

Nagas

The serpentine nagas are one of the least understood races of the Great Continent. Part of this is due to their xenophobic nature, as they spend much of their lives in seclusion. The other part is due to their alien environment, as nagas are one of the few races capable of any meaningful mobility in water. This gives them access to a whole world effectively forbidden to land dwellers and further separates them from terrestrial beings. Still, they are not true creatures of the sea, and their inability to breathe water leaves them in trepidation of the abyss. Living in coastal areas gives them an escape route on land against denizens of the deep while keeping them out of reach of those who travel by foot, wing, and hoof. Although nagas are somewhat frail in form, they are often faster and more nimble than their opponents. They sometimes find themselves at odds with merfolk when their territories overlap, but overall nagas tend to favor swamps and rivers as much as open water.

Society

Since most of naga culture is hidden in swamps and bayous away from prying eyes, outsiders are not privy to many details of their society. Consequently, the most common source of knowledge comes from stumbling blindly into naga dens and fighting or fleeing. It is known that both sexes fight alongside one another in equal standing, that they typically settle in swampy areas near rivers where they lay their eggs, and that they become very territorial when their homes are threatened. Beyond those few facts, scholars can only reason and guess.

Because many members of other races know nagas only through violence rather than through trade, diplomacy, or art, they tend to view them as murderous savages. Nagas sometimes use this to their advantage by intentionally fueling rumors that they are devilish monsters in order to keep intruders away. Some nagas have been known to ally themselves with orcish chieftains against their merfolk rivals or other threats. They are not known to have a written language beyond simple pictographs, so much of their past is unknown. While scholars know very little about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation.

Biology

Despite being scaly and seemingly reptilian, nagas do not share the same vulnerability to the cold that saurians and drakes do. Nagas typically stand about as tall as a man when they balance upright, but with considerable length of tail behind them. This long and muscular tail allows them to both travel quickly through water and venture onto land with a little difficulty.

+updates to the OP

[Feufochmar]

Geography

Merfolk were first discovered by humans at the Bay of Pearls when Haldric I landed on the shores of the Great Continent, but they have been known to the elves and other races for far longer.

In the Rise of Wesnoth, the merfolks appear when Haldric is evacuating the Green Isle in scenario 12 A Final Spring, and
Lady Jessene (the Wesfolk lady) know their leader, Lord Typhon, as she has already travelled to the Great Continent. Moreover the merfolks help Haldric's trip to the Great Continent. So the first human discovery of the merfolks is not correct.

Extract from the code of TRoW scenario 12

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker=Lord Typhon
            message= _ "I come seeking the Crown Prince!"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=King Addroran IX
            message= _ "Who is this fish man?"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lady Jessene
            message= _ "He's a large part of the reason your son made it to the lands of the east. Lord Typhon provided us with pearls and an escort for our voyages in exchange for steel trident points and fishhooks. It's difficult to be a blacksmith when you live underwater."
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lord Typhon
            message= _ "Indeed it is. But where is the Prince?"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lady Jessene
            message= _ "The Crown Prince is dead. But we have need of your services again- -"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lord Typhon
            message= _ "Under the same terms?"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lady Jessene
            message= _ "Agreed."
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Lord Typhon
            message= _ "Good. We need the steel for our own war in the deep. I formally place the might of the Merfolk at your disposal!"
        [/message]

[johndh]

In the Rise of Wesnoth, the merfolks appear when Haldric is evacuating the Green Isle in scenario 12 A Final Spring, and
Lady Jessene (the Wesfolk lady) know their leader, Lord Typhon, as she has already travelled to the Great Continent. Moreover the merfolks help Haldric's trip to the Great Continent. So the first human discovery of the merfolks is not correct.

Whoops. That's what I get for referencing campaigns I've never played.

[johndh]

*bump*

Fixed the historical inaccuracy with the merfolk, and did some significant changes to the nagas. It's amazing how different something looks after spending a couple days away and then coming back to it. Anyway, hopefully it's an improvement.

Merfolk

Something like a fusion between humans and fish, the merfolk are an enigmatic race with both piscine and humanoid attributes. They have strong tails that lend themselves to quick movement in any watery environment while their dextrous hands and intelligent minds allow fine craftsmanship and toolmaking. Semi-aquatic by nature, merfolk can breathe both water and air without difficulty. Despite being able to survive on land, they are much quicker and more agile in the water and will rarely be found far from the ocean. They are typically wary of dry land, as they are awkward and clumsy there and they struggle greatly to move over rough or forested terrain.

Society

The merfolk live in the shallow parts of the ocean, wary of the monsters that lurk in the deep. Their most frequent clashes are with the various aquatic beasts that roam their territories and with their rivals, the nagas.

Merfolk sustain themselves primarily through fishing and the skills they acquire with spears and nets translate very well to combat. The duties of the warrior are typically left to the mermen while their women, called mermaids, are unusually adept at magic. Their mastery of both the arcane and the elemental belies their faerie nature.

Due to the difficulty of mining and forging metal in the ocean, as well as protecting it from rust, it is a luxury typically restricted to the warrior class. Clothing itself is a sign of status among the merfolk and many materials are prioritized for more practical applications, so commoners usually go without it. The clothes merfolk do wear serve to decorate the natural form, not to shroud it, as they see nothing vulgar about the body in its natural state. This is also reflected in the design of their armor, which mimics the musculature it protects. The wealthy adorn themselves with clothes made from oceanic materials like seaweed and the skin of aquatic creatures. Females in particular favor decorations and ornamentation such as starfish, pearls, coral, and shells of various kinds. Merfolk trade with land-dwelling races for materials that are not readily available to them when they have a need.

Since they spend most of their time in the water, where ordinary speech would be useless, the merfolk have an airless language somewhat akin to the sounds of cetaceans. On the surface they are capable of producing human-like speech, which they use when dealing with non-mer.

Geography

Merfolk are the only intelligent race known to be able to breathe water, including both fresh and salt water. Their bodies are naturally resistant to the cold of the depths and their strong tails allow them to swim faster than most humans move on land. The combination of their tolerance for various environments and their ability to cover long distances gives them a wide range of aquatic habitats. Thus, merfolk can be found all along the coasts and major waterways of the Great Continent and perhaps beyond. Although they seem to favor shallow coastal waters, no one knows for sure how many merfolk inhabit the waters farther from land.

Nagas

The serpentine nagas are one of the least understood races of the Great Continent. Part of this is due to their xenophobic nature and part is due to their alien environment. Nagas are one of the few races capable of any meaningful mobility in water, giving them access to a whole world effectively forbidden to land dwellers and further separating them from the terrestrial beings that they shun. Still, they are not true creatures of the sea, and their inability to breathe water leaves them in trepidation of the abyss. Living in coastal areas gives them an escape route on land against denizens of the deep while keeping them out of reach of those who travel by foot, wing, and hoof. Although nagas are somewhat frail in form, they are often faster and more nimble than their opponents. They sometimes find themselves at odds with merfolk when their territories overlap, but overall nagas tend to favor swamps and rivers as much as open water.

Society

Since most of naga culture is hidden in secluded swamps and bayous, outsiders are not privy to many details of their society. Consequently, the most common source of knowledge comes from stumbling blindly into naga dens. The ensuing fights have taught us that they become very territorial when their homes are threatened, with both sexes fighting alongside one another in equal standing and with equal prowess. These encounters happen most often in swampy areas near rivers where nagas lay their eggs. Beyond these few facts, scholars can only reason and guess about what goes on away from prying eyes.

Because many members of other races know nagas only through violence rather than through trade, diplomacy, or art, they tend to view them as murderous savages. Nagas sometimes use this to their advantage by intentionally fueling rumors that they are devilish monsters in order to keep intruders away. Some nagas have been known to ally themselves with orcish chieftains against their merfolk rivals or other threats. While scholars know very little for certain about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation. Unfortunately, these ruins tell us very little else about the past because the only writing appears to be a pictographic language unknown to modern readers.

Biology

Despite being scaly and seemingly reptilian, nagas do not share the same vulnerability to the cold that saurians and drakes do. Nagas typically stand about as tall as a man when they balance upright, but with considerable length of tail behind them. This long and muscular tail allows them to both travel quickly through water and venture onto land with a little difficulty.

Doesn't that look so much better than emptiness?

[Darker_Dreams]

Merfolk

Semi-aquatic by nature, merfolk can breathe both water and air without difficulty.

They are pretty thoroughly aquatic- being naturally suited to water and disinclined towards land. The term would probably be "amphibious" or simply "aquatic" (without the semi) This is probably an awful time to bring this up, but last I checked merfolk can't breath water.

belies their faerie nature.

Curiosity, where did this "faerie nature" bit come from? Is it really needed?

non-mer.

why the truncation? wouldn't "non-merfolk" be a more likely term in context?

Nagas

giving them access to a whole world effectively forbidden to land dwellers and further separating them from the terrestrial beings that they shun.
...
an escape route on land against denizens of the deep while keeping them out of reach of those who travel by foot, wing, and hoof.

I like the text. I just wanted to point out that you're saying the same thing twice.

They sometimes find themselves at odds with merfolk when their territories overlap, but overall nagas tend to favor swamps and rivers as much as open water.

This is back to being indeterminate as to why the preference is important.

Society

much better.

, they tend to view them

nagas tend to view scholars?

While scholars know very little for certain about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation. Unfortunately, these ruins tell us very little else about the past because the only writing appears to be a pictographic language unknown to modern readers.

Nicely done. There is an indeterminate "them" you might wrestle down.

[johndh]

Merfolk-related responses

They are pretty thoroughly aquatic- being naturally suited to water and disinclined towards land. The term would probably be "amphibious" or simply "aquatic" (without the semi)

True... but I think both those terms have connotations that I don't particularly want, and this goes well with the "half-person, half-fish" theme in the first paragraph. If I were to say "aquatic", one might tend to think they're entirely that way. I know amphibious doesn't necessarily refer to frogs, but I can't get the association out of my mind.

I've re-written much of the first paragraph, so maybe this fixes it:
"Something like a fusion between humans and fish, the merfolk are an enigmatic race with both piscine and humanoid attributes. They have strong tails that lend themselves to quick movement in any watery environment while their dextrous hands and intelligent minds allow fine craftsmanship and toolmaking. Despite their somewhat humanoid form, merfolk are primarily aquatic and their bodies are built for movement in open water. However, merfolk can breathe both water and air without difficulty. They can survive on land but are wary of it, as they are awkward and clumsy there, so they are rarely found far from the ocean. They especially avoid rough and forested terrain and struggle greatly to move over it."

This is probably an awful time to bring this up, but last I checked merfolk can't breath water.

Interesting dilemma. If I say they do breathe water, I'm going against that quote. However, they quite clearly have gills, so saying that they can't breathe water seems silly to me. I'm going with water-breathing unless I need to change it for inclusion in mainline. It just doesn't seem right to have a mermaid who can't breathe water, you know? Even worse, what if she drowns? On top of that, it makes the merfolk and nagas more different than they would otherwise be, instead of one simply being a scaly and barbaric version of the other (which is something I'm avoiding).

Curiosity, where did this "faerie nature" bit come from? Is it really needed?

Unit descriptions for the mermaid line. Maybe not absolutely needed, but maybe it helps explain why they make so little sense from a biological/evolutionary perspective.

why the truncation? wouldn't "non-merfolk" be a more likely term in context?

"Non-merfolk" seems awkward and ugly to me. I think "mer" serves as a better adjective, and it does have some precedent(ce?) around here.

Naga-related responses

giving them access to a whole world effectively forbidden to land dwellers and further separating them from the terrestrial beings that they shun.
...
an escape route on land against denizens of the deep while keeping them out of reach of those who travel by foot, wing, and hoof.

I like the text. I just wanted to point out that you're saying the same thing twice.

How so? Do you mean how "terrestrial beings", "land dwellers", and "those who travel..." are all different ways of saying "critters with legs"?

They sometimes find themselves at odds with merfolk when their territories overlap, but overall nagas tend to favor swamps and rivers as much as open water.

This is back to being indeterminate as to why the preference is important.

"They sometimes find themselves at odds with merfolk when their territories overlap, but overall nagas tend to favor swamps and rivers while merfolk usually stay in open water." Does that help?

, they tend to view them

nagas tend to view scholars?

Members know nagas; they view them... I thought it was pretty clear. How's about: "Many members of other races know nagas only through violence rather than through trade, diplomacy, or art, giving (or 'and this gives') nagas a fierce reputation as murderous savages." The trouble I have with this is that I'm not sure how to say that they have a reputation where people see them as murderous savages, but without me saying that they necessarily are. Reputation for savagery, perhaps?

While scholars know very little for certain about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead them to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation. Unfortunately, these ruins tell us very little else about the past because the only writing appears to be a pictographic language unknown to modern readers.

Nicely done. There is an indeterminate "them" you might wrestle down.

I don't really want to repeat the word "scholars" so many times, so how about: "While very little is known for certain about the history of the race, the ruins of ancient naga temples lead scholars to believe that they may have once had a mighty nation."

[thespaceinvader]

NB: I'm pretty sure the Merfolk can't actually breathe water very well - it's a major reason, in fluff-terms, for them not having the capability to gain Submerge as an ability, a limitation which is necessary for balance. They can survive underwater for long periods, but not entire turns, I think.

[johndh]

NB: I'm pretty sure the Merfolk can't actually breathe water very well - it's a major reason, in fluff-terms, for them not having the capability to gain Submerge as an ability, a limitation which is necessary for balance. They can survive underwater for long periods, but not entire turns, I think.

Yes, I read the thread about that. I think it's a lot better to say "mermen don't have Submerge because of balance reasons", rather than to say "merfolk can't breathe water because of balance reasons". Gameplay is a perfectly valid reason for altering stats, but I don't think it's a good reason for altering lore unless absolutely necessary. Stats are often tweaked in ways that go against lore but contribute to balance, so I have no problem with that. The first is gameplay and story segregation, while the second is a rather bad handwave. I mean... they have gills. Saying that they can't breathe water does a lot more than just give a reason why they can't submerge. It makes the entire concept of the race even less practical than a half-human half-fish already is.

[thespaceinvader]

I read it, personally, as their gills simply not being efficient enough to maintain their presence underwater indefinitely. They have very little gill volume compared to their body size, as a lot of the room is taken up by lungs, and the gills are on their necks rather than a more practical location. So the gills supplement their store of air when they're underwater, leading them to be extremely efficient swimmers, but they have to come up occasionally to refresh that air, or they die of CO2 toxicity, oxygen deprivation or the like. And also, the bends would likely be a severe issue at any kind of depth...

[johndh]

I read it, personally, as their gills simply not being efficient enough to maintain their presence underwater indefinitely. They have very little gill volume compared to their body size, as a lot of the room is taken up by lungs, and the gills are on their necks rather than a more practical location. So the gills supplement their store of air when they're underwater, leading them to be extremely efficient swimmers, but they have to come up occasionally to refresh that air, or they die of CO2 toxicity, oxygen deprivation or the like.

I'm still not buying it, I'm afraid. It makes some sense from that perspective, but what's the point of a merman who can't breathe water? There could certainly be certain situations where the water would become deoxygenated and they'd have to surface, or the water would be too murky (which could be why they prefer ocean to swamp), but it doesn't make sense to me that that would be the usual state of things. If they were only adapted to stay underwater for a limited time, then it seems that it would make more sense for them to adapt like whales or elephant seals. Creatures with working gills but who primarily breathe air don't (AFAIK) exist on Earth, and that's probably because having a gill structure and functional lungs is only practical if both actually work.

And also, the bends would likely be a severe issue at any kind of depth...

That I buy. I think that is a much better justification and I'm definitely on board for that one. It explains why they don't have Submerge, why they prefer shallow water over deep water, and why they have worse defense in the deep. While they have gills, fins, etc., they're still kinda humanoid and their bodies just aren't built to take extreme pressure changes. Skeletons don't have any circulatory systems, so nitrogen bubbles in their (lack of) blood isn't a problem, and they don't have any vital organs that might be crushed by pressure. Merfolk, on the other hand, could very believably suffer from both of those problems. Most of all, it lets them not have Submerge but allows us to get rid of this silly "mer who can't breathe water" notion.

[thespaceinvader]

How do fish avoid the bends?

And yeah, it's convoluted and silly, but we're talking about half-fish-half-human here. The whole concept is pretty ridiculous from any kind of evolutionary perspective.

A wizard did it.