Orcs, never mind

For writers working on documentation, story prose, announcements, and all kinds of Wesnoth text.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3778
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: USA, the civilized part.

Orcs, never mind

Post by doofus-01 » January 2nd, 2010, 8:46 pm

Hi,

I was going to try to make a female orc character (started portrait), so I looked at the orc race description to see if there was anything written on the subject. I didn't see anything, but thought the description was a little rough in places. So, this is a pass at fixing it (in the spoiler). I'm a native English speaker, but not a great writer, so there may still be some errors.
Spoiler:
Sorry if this has already been dealt with, a forum search of "orc desccriptions" didn't show anything that I thought was relevant.
Last edited by doofus-01 on January 6th, 2010, 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AI
Developer
Posts: 2394
Joined: January 31st, 2008, 8:38 pm

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by AI » January 2nd, 2010, 11:22 pm

Orcs mostly in foothills or mountainous regions, sometimes in caves.
You accidentally the verb.

User avatar
Zigg
Posts: 421
Joined: June 7th, 2009, 12:37 pm
Location: Reach

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by Zigg » January 4th, 2010, 3:29 pm

You made mistake in your post, too, AI.

User avatar
StDrake
Posts: 996
Joined: July 21st, 2009, 6:50 am

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by StDrake » January 4th, 2010, 8:34 pm

Image

psst -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
that was purposeful you know? to intensify the expression of the sentences meaning

meanwhile- i'm not very into the idea of orcs having no sence of honor..or at least silly pride if they can tell the difference
in fact i do remember some scenes where orcs mention something like a warriors pride/honor in wesnoth..but then again it might have been just umc so maybe it's not against the canon after all
Like cats? I've made a whole faction of them to kick ass with!
Don't like cats? I've made a whole faction of them to kick their asses! So everyone's happy :)
Felinian faction is part of the Beyond Southern Hells era
kitties need sprites! art topic here

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by thespaceinvader » January 4th, 2010, 9:45 pm

I certainly feel like the SotBE orcs have a Klingon-ish sense of honour, but very much on the brutal side of things. And they're definitely not above underhanded tactics.
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3778
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: USA, the civilized part.

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by doofus-01 » January 4th, 2010, 10:32 pm

I think Zigg just has a very dry sense of humor...

I tried not to change the meaning of the description, so I did not add anything. I think that description is pretty old, maybe from when HttT was the only campaign? (I guess I could check SVN...) If Delfador and his elf buddies were narrating it, it would make sense that the orcs came across as stupid jerks with no redeeming qualities.

If I were to add or change anything, it would concern their technology. They are clearly better at mining and metalworking than humans, who must give their level 1 fighters spears while the orc grunts get swords and closed-face helmets. Or maybe there is some other explanation.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by thespaceinvader » January 4th, 2010, 10:34 pm

They use more bronze, and their society is more based on the use and maintenance of weapons.

They also scavenge a lot. They have poor-quality gear in general, compared to that used by human armies.

That's at least 3 explanations, take your pick :P
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3778
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: USA, the civilized part.

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by doofus-01 » January 4th, 2010, 10:44 pm

Hhmm... I like mine better.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
melinath
Posts: 1298
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 7:42 am

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by melinath » January 4th, 2010, 11:20 pm

There's no evidence that I know of that humans "must" give their level ones spears. It could be and probably is a choice.
Nor is it correct to say that a sword is inherently better than a sword. Each has advantages and disadvantages. The drakes, who are definitely expert smiths, don't even use swords, but the whole clasher line (even the level 1s) uses spears.
For that matter, there are level one human units (Cavalryman,Sergeant,Fencer,Bowman) that do use swords.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3778
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: USA, the civilized part.

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by doofus-01 » January 4th, 2010, 11:55 pm

Spearman description wrote:"Swords are, for many, an expensive luxury, and one which peasants can ill afford. Spears are much easier to make and will do well even without a spearhead, though most can afford one...
And grunts are cheaper than any of those other guys. (And the drakes used to have swords.) That was my line of reasoning...

I didn't really mean to start a debate, I just thought it would be nice to mention their technology a little more in the description. But if it is not necessary, it is not necessary.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by thespaceinvader » January 5th, 2010, 12:01 am

Swords are expensive in human culture for cultural reasons - swords are a tool of the nobility. The nobility like things to be of high quality, and therefore expensive. And orc sword is more or less a slab of iron, ground sharp. No niceties involved in its production, all you need is to be able to smelt metal, or obtain it from somewhere.
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
melinath
Posts: 1298
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 7:42 am

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by melinath » January 5th, 2010, 12:19 am

I agree that it would be nice to have more on their technology. I'm just debating what that technology consists of. :-) Good catch with that human spearman desc. I stand corrected. There is evidence that human spearmen have to use spears instead of swords. However, this is not because the humans are inferior metalworkers, but rather because the spearmen apparently have to buy their weapons themselves and apparently don't have the money to pay for a high-quality weapon. If you want to compare technologies, compare the higher levels, which in each society would have the peak equipment.

Note also that the new orc portraits are based on the theory that orcs scavenge a lot of their equipment.

User avatar
Skrim
Posts: 312
Joined: June 10th, 2009, 7:19 am

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by Skrim » January 5th, 2010, 5:54 am

Well... if human level-1 melee units (Spearmen) have to use spears, due to them being cheap and easy to acquire and train with, then why do the Elves' level-1 units (Elvish Fighters) use swords? Their swords are pretty finely crafted too, not sharpened slabs of metal like the Orcs' swords. And this is despite Elves not being known to be the greatest metal-workers in the Wesnoth-verse, possibly 3rd or 4th in line after the Dwarves, Drakes and maybe humans.

I think a better explanation for the humans' usage of spears and polearms in general would stem more from their rank-&-file combat style as opposed to other limitations. Even in history, most basic infantry weapons were polearms, since they worked better in formations and needed less space and less training than swordsmanship. Swords were actually used as sidearms more often, instead of being main weapons.

As for the Orcs, they don't really use swordsmanship at all, but just swing their big sharpened metal sticks around and use their sheer strength to make up for whatever they lack in finesse or skill. Keep in mind that Grunts, despite this, still have lower base damage(18) than Elvish Fighters(20) or human Spearmen(21).

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by thespaceinvader » January 5th, 2010, 7:40 am

Because elves have several decades in which to train and acquire/make/purchase equipment. They probably would be the best smiths if they were not allergic to iron, and if they put their minds to it. Elves are better than everyone at everything, remember :P
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3778
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: USA, the civilized part.

Re: Orcs, orcs, orcs

Post by doofus-01 » January 5th, 2010, 2:36 pm

I've thought long and hard about it, and the reason for the different weapons is this: Magic

I am unconvinced by the arguments here, but realize nothing is going to come of this. I do think Skrim's Spearman explanation would be better than the current one though.

Post Reply