Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

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Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by StDrake » September 14th, 2009, 7:34 am

I was planning to write a few bits for the pre-wesnoth history (and yes i avoided any religion :) unless your treat fairies as divine, but then they're already there so it's too late) and so was looking through the gathered lore on the wiki to make it possibly consistent. Of course it was unavoidable to find a few bugs in there so before i start making things up a few things for you:

green swamp - between aethenwood and aldril and brown hills (near gryphon mt)
supposed to "receive drain from hills and feed into great river". Looking at the map of course it's not marked, but the place where the swamp fits has practically no access to the great river. More likely that it would dig into the rive Aethen or the Bay of Pearls, maybe river Weldyn if it made a big stretch over the southern reaches of Weldyn town.

spelling misses: in HttT lore there's "eually" instead of "equally" and in ToTB "wstern" which obviously should be western


Now then..i noticed someone was looking for pre-wesnothian history, so wanting to know if he's done anything in that field to coordinate efforts. And what's that Lore Collection Project, i seem to have missed any trace of it in the writers section?
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by AI » September 14th, 2009, 9:08 am

The green swamp used to be on the map, to the northeast of aethenwood. It disappeared around 1.4 I believe, along with a lot of land near glamdrol.

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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by solsword » September 14th, 2009, 9:23 am

Well, a bit of grep tells the story of the green swamp: apparently someone confused it with the swamp of Illuven? The relevant text:
The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/scenarios/16_Elf_Lords.cfg wrote: message= _ "I fear my kin are too easy on you. I decree that you should be made to fight the Dragon of the Green Swamp and its saurian minions. If you can defeat him, you will have truly earned your place in this land."
Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/06_swamps_of_illuven.cfg wrote: message=_"These are the swamps of Illuven - lesser kin of the Swamp of Dread north of the Great River, but noxious enough in their own fashion. Our way lies west and north across them to the Ford of Abez. The western road around the other edge of the Brown Hills would have been safer, but..."
So the Dragon that you fight in HttT is definitely placed in the Green Swamp. And there's even a journey map for HttT scenario 17 (Called "The Dragon") that should tell us where that is. Unfortunately, I don't have an HttT save file, so it would take me a while to find out. Anyone care to give us a screenshot of that journey map?

That's the only reference to a Green Swamp in the mainline campaigns that I could find. My guess is that the line about draining from the Brown Hills (the hills surrounding Gryphon Mountain) into the Great River was probably lifted from a description of the Swamps of Illuven... that, or the two are the same (perhaps different names in different time periods) and no-one noticed. That would leave unexplained references to a swamp on the northeast border of the Aethenwood, right in a blank spot on the map. I saw two such references on the geography page: one in the description for the Green Swamp, and one in the description of the "Southwest Elven Lands" (which again calls it the Green Swamp... so that placement is probably correct, unless one of the wiki authors used the other as the source). If the Green Swamp really does border the Aethenwood, then the bit about draining the Brown Hills into the Great River belongs to the Swamps of Illuven, which should probably be added to the Geography wiki.

(Sort-of edit: AI's post somewhat confirms mine. I'd still like to see that journey map)
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by AI » September 14th, 2009, 9:47 am

Compare: current old older.

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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by Aethaeryn » September 14th, 2009, 9:56 am

AI wrote:Compare: current old older.
Useful links. Thanks for finding them.
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by Blarumyrran » September 14th, 2009, 10:00 am

AI wrote:Compare: current old older.
Each next iteration looks worse than the previous one :/

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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by Aethaeryn » September 14th, 2009, 10:03 am

Blarumyrran wrote:
AI wrote:Compare: current old older.
Each next iteration looks worse than the previous one :/
At the very least, each is less stylized. The most recent is almost modern-style.
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by solsword » September 14th, 2009, 11:55 am

So... there's definitely a swamp there. But is it the Green Swamp, or some other nameless (or even named) swamp?

Sorry for being so persistent, but lack of such attention to detail is probably what caused this mix-up in the first place. That journey map from HttT should confirm the exact location of the Green Swamp, and most likely, we'll see that the swamp that disappeared from the map is in fact the Green Swamp (someone should really add it back in, along with a label. It isn't *that* difficult, and all of the resources are linked from http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/ImageLocalization#Maps). Once that's confirmed, someone should edit the wiki and move that erroneous description onto a new entry for the Swamps of Illuven.
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by StDrake » September 14th, 2009, 2:21 pm

it's probably the Green Swamp with just a stray description part about the great river mistaken from some other source, I'll have to check HttT when i have some more spare time

while we're at it, I forgot to mention a mistake in Lintanir forest description - it mentions it to be the south and easternmost part of the Great Forest, while it's quite visible on the map that it's the south and westernmost part (theres simply no more forest further west, that's where the heart mountains land). The westity of it is confirmed in some other parts of the description so i'm assuming that's just a mistake in writing.
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by AI » September 14th, 2009, 3:13 pm

I think it was already fixed everywhere but the wiki. Fixed there too now.

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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by Deusite » September 14th, 2009, 4:21 pm

There's a number of problems with the journey map for TRoW. When I played it on 1.4 the tracking map didn't work properly. Now the Ka'lian (elvish council) is in the middle of the Grey Woods, when is should be in Wesmere, but I thought that had already been fixed.

The scenario for The Dragon doesn't point anywhere near the supposed Green Swamp, it points close to the swamps of Illuven in fact, just on the wrong side of the river. Note the journey map.
Picture 2.png
I <3 debug mode!

I've personally never seen the Green Swamp mentioned in any campaign (except TRoW of course). It might as well not exist, maybe that's why it was removed in the first place.

Edit: There is another swamp on the far bottom left of the map (next to a beach, hmmm), where Lizard Beach takes place, that should really go into the TSG map I'm making. =)
StDrake wrote:And what's that Lore Collection Project, i seem to have missed any trace of it in the writers section?
Here...
...and here.

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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by StDrake » September 14th, 2009, 6:02 pm

AI wrote:I think it was already fixed everywhere but the wiki. Fixed there too now.
you could've fixed the missing letters while you were there :)

indeed i've just went through TRoW in 1.7 and the tracking is waaay off for the council, green swamps in there indeed land between brown hills and the river, I don't know where are Illuven swamps mentionned. The lizard beach actually falls somewhere south of the later Blackwater. It would actually be quite logical to change the tracking for the dragon to south of later Alduin and just remove the part about the great river - since the lizards of the beach are suspected friends of the dragon that would place them closer to the dragys location..well.. actually vice versa..still works.

There's also a fault with the troll hole in the Brown Hills - tracks lead too far over to Dulatus Hills instead according to the labelled map.

Now then a dilemma..should we rather fix the campaign to follow lore or correct the lore according to the campaign storyline
I'd vote for track changing of the campaing instead of playing around with text AND images (dulatus label vs brown hill tracks).

PS. As for removing green swamp completely..i don't see a problem with keeping mainline lore not supported by caimpaigns :) as long as it is kept unified with other lore somewhere
Last edited by StDrake on September 14th, 2009, 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by Aethaeryn » September 14th, 2009, 6:07 pm

StDrake wrote:
AI wrote:I think it was already fixed everywhere but the wiki. Fixed there too now.
you could've fixed the missing letters while you were there :)
Rule #1 of wikis: be bold. If you see something wrong, fix it yourself. (If you're wrong, someone can always revert you, but if you're right someone might not have notice what you noticed.)
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by StDrake » September 14th, 2009, 6:09 pm

oh? am i allowed to dig in the wiki as a normal user? i mean will the system allow me to
Like cats? I've made a whole faction of them to kick ass with!
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Re: Fuxing a few holes - Wesnoth (and Irdya) history

Post by pauxlo » September 14th, 2009, 6:46 pm

StDrake wrote:oh? am i allowed to dig in the wiki as a normal user? i mean will the system allow me to
Yes. You'll have to create an account and log in to edit, but it works :-)

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