Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

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Daxion
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by Daxion » January 18th, 2010, 3:40 pm

Actually I think we don't need to look far for similar races/species.
A well known and studies example are honey bees.
Honey bees have males that are incapable of everything but flying and mating (well they mate inflight, which is their only role). They cannot even feed themselfs from honey in the hive (neither can they collect nectar).
I just thought I'd raise the point

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tuahaa » January 18th, 2010, 5:43 pm

Referring to the land mass required to sustain drakes-

Good work. One thing though- I doubt that Drakes will need an air-strip. If planes would have such wings like dragonflies or birds (or drakes for that matter), they would just need to flap them to take off. In reality, an aeroplane has to reach to speed of roughly 200+km (I think) depending on the size before it goes in the air. That means drakes will have to run to reach those speeds and then take off. Obviously this isn't realistic (even in the wesnoth world- drakes aren't known to run that fast), which means that they don't need airstrips. They just flap their wings and take off.

However, I believe that you should keep the size suggested. Airstrip or no airstrip, they still need to live there along with the animals they munch on.

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Daxion
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by Daxion » January 18th, 2010, 8:06 pm

tuahaa wrote:In reality, an aeroplane has to reach to speed of roughly 200+km (I think) depending on the size before it goes in the air. That means drakes will have to run to reach those speeds and then take off.
Actual speeds can vary but are usually somewhere between 50 and 100 km/h. It depends mainly on the wingload (and therefore on the weight).
Short results: If Drakes jump of a rock, they fall 30 meters before they start to fly.
This would suggest that drakes like to have high perches to leap from. You also have to take into account that, they can fall AND flap their wings, lowering that distance. And additionally by "fly" I did mean that they can fully support their weight. They can use speed gained by a short fall, to "partially" fly and swoop down a slope of a mountain. This means they need still 30 meters of free fall distance, but not straight down. A 2-5 meter large rock and a mountain slope would be sufficient.
But in any case they would probaply prefere mountainious regions (their home island) seems to have quite a bit of that.
tuahaa wrote:However, I believe that you should keep the size suggested. Airstrip or no airstrip, they still need to live there along with the animals they munch on.
Actually it's not me who decides anything. I just try to make suggestions based on some mathematical quesswork.

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by Cloud » January 18th, 2010, 9:44 pm

Not forgetting there are likely to be many updrafts as their homes surround hot places. Even humans can use these with relatively small gliders. Drakes, begin ancient creatures, will know how best to use all air currents. And in doubt: there's always magic.
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by Daxion » January 19th, 2010, 8:57 am

Cloud wrote:And in doubt: there's always magic.
Yes, but that's not what I wanted in the first place.
Cloud wrote:Not forgetting there are likely to be many updrafts as their homes surround hot places. Even humans can use these with relatively small gliders. Drakes, begin ancient creatures, will know how best to use all air currents.
And they could even make a fire on the ground to create one :shock:

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tuahaa » January 19th, 2010, 1:55 pm

I did some more research and I found out that for an aircraft weighing 600kg (the average drake weight you suggested) would be much, much less than that of a commercial aircraft(duh). According to my dad (who is an aircraft safety law maker guy), an aircraft which has the weight of 600kg will require the speed of about 90km/h before they can take off.

Now, gravity accelerates stuff at 9.8 metres per second per second. For simplicity's sake, let's round this to 10m/s/s

:eng: Let's do the Math (a lot of these numbers are rounded)

*Physics Warning*

First off, the drake needs to reach 90km/s or 25 m/s for a stable flight speed. Let's enter that into the first equation of motion:

Final Velocity (25m/s- required speed)= Initial Velocity (starting speed) + a (acceleration. Effectively, this is gravity) * t (time

Vf=Vi+at

25=0+10t
2.5=0+t

therefore time=2.5 seconds
That means that the drake would drop for 2.5s until it can start flying

Having said that, we can now calculate the distance of the drop using the second equation of motion:
Distance=Initial Velocity x time + 0.5 x Acceleration x Time squared
S=Vit+0.5a(t^2)

Which is
S=0x2.5+0.5x10x2.5x2.5
S=0.5x10x2.5x2.5
S=5x2.5x2.5
S=12.5x2.5
S=31.25

That means the drake will fall at least 31.25 M straight down before it can fly

Straight down? Why? because gravity pulls straight down. The drake can't reach the speed of 60km/h unless in falls straight down for 31.25m

My petition is that drakes can just take off without requiring runways, like birds or dragonflies (much more realistic IMO)

Does that sound reasonable :?:

PS. And drakes can't control their magic, according to their info. They can only breathe fire, but can't harness the magical powers they possess, so for those who argue the magic factor, too bad!

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by StDrake » January 19th, 2010, 8:33 pm

Fun with maths, but you don't consider difference in build and surface of wings plus a bunch of other factors that living creatures take advantage of while plane science is yet unable to. The science you used claims kangaroos are impossible with their way of movement.
As for magic they don't need to harness it on purpose, it might apply itself 'naturally' to their attempts at flight as it does with their fiery breath.
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tuahaa » January 20th, 2010, 3:48 am

StDrake wrote:Fun with maths, but you don't consider difference in build and surface of wings plus a bunch of other factors that living creatures take advantage of while plane science is yet unable to. The science you used claims kangaroos are impossible with their way of movement.
As for magic they don't need to harness it on purpose, it might apply itself 'naturally' to their attempts at flight as it does with their fiery breath.
That's why I propose that drakes don't need a runway, as they aren't machines. They just need to flap their wings and they are in the air

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by thespaceinvader » January 20th, 2010, 8:13 am

Most very large birds either need some form of run-up, or a high place to drop off in order to take off successfully ;)
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tuahaa » January 20th, 2010, 10:43 am

thespaceinvader wrote:Most very large birds either need some form of run-up, or a high place to drop off in order to take off successfully ;)
Well, drakes certainly can't reach the speeds of 90km/h by running, and a 31m drop straight down doesn't make sense. They will need very high places. This is fine, but it means they will always have to be on a high place to fly, which doesn't reflect on the game. Anyhow, All birds just need the couple of flaps of their wings to take off, so something like a drake won't have problems doing so. Besides, helicopters don't need runways; just a few spins. I would see drakes as helicopters when taking off...


PS. And any bird, no matter how big it is, does not need a run up! They don't need to reach a take off speed- they aren't airplanes and neither are drakes! :eng: :eng:

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by thespaceinvader » January 20th, 2010, 3:23 pm

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tsr » January 20th, 2010, 4:11 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:There is an established canon for drake gender dynamics, it is as found in the wiki page linked to from here. It hasn't yet come up in any campaigns, but that is the way it is going to be.
Hi, ok, I've tried to find a convincing reasoning for this established canon but haven't really found any.

- why do drakes have to be so hierarchical?
- why does one of the sexes need to be non-sentient?
- why has it to be the 'females' that are non-sentient?

Imho there are a lot of other possibilities to create a convincing story without falling into the sexist trap of 'women don't count as real persons'.

We already have that with the dwarves where the lack of females is explained by: maybe they have beards too...

/tsr

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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by thespaceinvader » January 20th, 2010, 4:23 pm

Why not?

Dwarves don't have any female units yet because we haven't made them yet.

Also worth bearing in mind that this is a military game in a medieval-esque world - the proportion of women in Wesnoth's combat forces is staggeringly high for the equivalent time period, if anything, rather than low as you seem to be implying.
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Re: Drakes - some thoughts on Drake society, biologie and origin

Post by tuahaa » January 20th, 2010, 4:43 pm

But that's just a couple of steps to get started- the problem is that drakes can't reach speeds of 90km/h by taking a couple of steps. And they don't need to. They can take the couple of steps just like a swan and flap their wings to gather enough lift to be able to fly

In that ad, the swam was normally swimming for most of the time, when it 'took off' it was stepping on the water and flapping its wings to gain momentum and to reach the minimum stall speed. If they were like aircraft, they would reach take off speed after roughly about 5m before they can take off- which they obviously don't do. Anyway, this doesn't matter. The reason why the earliest planes were based on birds was because birds (and many insects) had the perfect body for flying. Because humans couldn't copy the 'perfect' design of a bird, they had to use high speed to get into the air. Now, if drakes are living things, they don't need to acquire 90km/h before they take off.

Does it sound reasonable yet?

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