Dwarf Scout line descriptions

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thespaceinvader
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Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 29th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Since the current Dwarf Scout line descriptions are... somewhat sparse, at best... I thought I'd give them new descriptions to complement their new sprites.

Current descriptions:
Spoiler:
New Scout:
Spoiler:
New Pathfinder:
Spoiler:
New Explorer:
Spoiler:
I'm happy to take critique, but this isn't an excuse for anyone and everyone to jump in and suggest their own descriptions. So yeah.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by Turuk » July 29th, 2009, 10:09 pm

For the Scout, the first sentence into the second sentence seems a bit stilted. Something about the sentence structure flows oddly.

For the Pathfinder, one thing that strikes me as off is that you pointed out in the Scout's description that they can match all but the swiftest, yet swift is the exact word you used to describe the Pathfinder (same MP though).

For the Explorer:
thespaceinvader wrote: Second only to their Lords in a melee, they exceed them with a throwing axe,
Structure is a bit strange, perhaps rewording it to make it read a bit clearer?
thespaceinvader wrote: Their tremendous manoeuvrability makes them a force to be reckoned with.
The with seems like it is hanging, particularly since this is the last sentence in the description.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by melinath » July 30th, 2009, 1:41 am

Hurray! New descs from someone else - and someone who is probably going to finish them.
My comments:
It doesn't bother me at all that 'swift' occurs in both the scout and pathfinder descriptions. The player won't see them right next to each other. The 'swiftest' makes me stop for a moment and think 'swiftest what?', but that's not really a big issue.

Other than that, the only thing that bothers me about the scout and pathfinder is their roles in dwarvish society. You took the pathfinder's role of scouting and securing and gave it to the scout. Which makes sense. But the new pathfinder desc gives them the role of mailman, which would seem to be a downgrade, especially since it's mentioned so offhandly. To pull off a promotion from key securer of villages and chokepoints to mailman, you're gonna have to make mailman one difficult job. Perhaps the pathfinders could 'look for the best way for their comrades to travel to the enemy' or something like that?

The explorer bothers me because - well, I know I recently wrote a negative description of a unit, and it didn't work very well. However, this description comes across to me as too positive. The explorer is a *peerless* survivalist, *exceeds* the dwarvish lord in ranged attack, can travel *indefinitely*, and is *tremendously* maneuverable. On the one hand, the overpositiveness itself bothers me - the superlatives and comparatives overwhelm me a little. On the other hand, a couple of the points made in the explorer's desc are just incorrect. The explorers are less powerful than the steelclad and the runemaster in melee, not just the lord, and the explorers are not any more maneuverable than the rest of the unit line, so it seems a bit odd to emphasize it so much. (Okay... so the second one isn't exactly 'incorrect' as such...:P)

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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by Turuk » July 30th, 2009, 1:56 am

melinath wrote:The explorers are less powerful than the steelclad and the runemaster in melee, not just the lord, and the explorers are not any more maneuverable than the rest of the unit line, so it seems a bit odd to emphasize it so much. (Okay... so the second one isn't exactly 'incorrect' as such...)
The runemaster is a unique unit, thus not one of the run of the mill dwarves and so it's not that much of an issue if they are not referenced. Also, the Steelclad is in the same line as the lord, and he is just comparing the level 3s of both lines...
melinath wrote:It doesn't bother me at all that 'swift' occurs in both the scout and pathfinder descriptions. The player won't see them right next to each other.
I wasn't speaking at all about the word being used twice, but that they seemed to be used in a manner that contradicts.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by melinath » July 30th, 2009, 2:06 am

Turuk wrote:The runemaster is a unique unit, thus not one of the run of the mill dwarves and so it's not that much of an issue if they are not referenced. Also, the Steelclad is in the same line as the lord, and he is just comparing the level 3s of both lines...
Explorer: Draft 1 wrote:Dwarvish Explorers are peerless survivalists. Using only the equipment they carry, they can range indefinitely around the forests and mountains looking for new seams of ore and deposits of minerals. Second only to their Lords in a melee, they exceed them with a throwing axe, having practised this skill in hunting. Their tremendous manoeuvrability makes them a force to be reckoned with.
I was being generous in assuming that this description was only talking about *dwarves*. I could just as easily object that the pathfinder is less powerful in melee than: bandit, shock trooper, drake warrior, etc. The description does not specify that this ranking, "second only to", is limited to dwarves, let alone limited to only a comparison among dwarven level 3s. If that's what you're going for, TSI, it needs to be clearer. Really, though, I don't feel that the "second only to" bit adds much, especially since, as Turuk noted, the sentence structure is a bit odd.

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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 30th, 2009, 8:10 am

Duly noted, I'll make some changes this afternoon.

To address a specific point regarding the message delivery thing - I wanted to pick something that would have them away from home for longer - scouts basically travel with the armies and range ahead to do army stuff. Pathfinders spend time on their own travelling between communities. Explorers go out alone for months on end looking for new stuff. However, if the general feeling is that the first and second should be switched around, I have no particular objection, I'd like to get all three points in, but I'm not that fussed as to where.

Doing this has made me ever more certain that, particularly for unit lines like this which basically just get better without radically changing, writing a description for the whole line all at once is far better than doing individual units piecemeal.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by melinath » July 30th, 2009, 11:09 am

thespaceinvader wrote:However, if the general feeling is that the first and second should be switched around, I have no particular objection, I'd like to get all three points in, but I'm not that fussed as to where.
:hmm: Dunno if it's general feeling or not. I personally don't think they should be switched.

Reading them again, I noticed that each unit has a statement about its participation in battle. However, for the scout, this is tactical - scouting and securing positions - while for the other two, it's just a description of their melee and ranged attacks. In contrast, the civilian duties of the pathfinder and explorer are very clearly stated, while the scout seems to have none. I think this is what makes the transition from scout to pathfinder so much more jarring for me.

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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 30th, 2009, 11:22 am

I tried to think about the possible civilian jobs for a scout, but I can't really work anything out... any ideas?
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 30th, 2009, 2:54 pm

Current descriptions:
Spoiler:
Second Drafts:

Scout:
Spoiler:
Pathfinder:
Spoiler:
Explorer:
Spoiler:
I moved the civilian positions about a bit, making the Scouts the delivery guys, and the Pathfinders more like roving sheriffs or policemen. Hopefully this is an improvement.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by lotsofphil » July 30th, 2009, 3:03 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:I tried to think about the possible civilian jobs for a scout, but I can't really work anything out... any ideas?
For civilian jobs, Scout as local mailman, Pathfinder as longer distance/through hostile territory mailman, and Explorer as go-anywhere/do-anything person.
For military endeavors, Scout as daily reconnaissance, coming back to the main force at night, Pathfinder as a longer-term scout that is gone for days or weeks at a time, Explorer same as the civilian part.

Scout
Spoiler:
() pick just one of stamina and endurance.
[] Capitalization. The unit names should be capitalized: Dwarvish Scout, Dwarvish Pathfinder, Bowman. Racial names should not: dwarf, dwarves, dwarvish, human.

Pathfinder (this one is a rewrite not an edit)
Spoiler:
Explorer
Spoiler:
() For me, the Explorer is the epitome of being able to live off the land (at least in the mountains). Peerless isn't too positive.
[] Taken from the Pathfinder and replacing the bit about "second only to the Lords."
{} They're not just prospecting, they're prospecting beyond Known Space.

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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by lotsofphil » July 30th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Sigh, you posted your second drafts "whilst" I was typing mine. If you want me to bother with any of my additions and the second draft, I will. Otherwise I will let them be.

For the second drafts, the word whilst is a British-only word. I don't know how Wesnoth handles American English and British English, but if you can avoid the word whilst, I would. The first and last sentences of the Scout description both talk about light armor. Combine them or, better, get rid of the last sentence.

For the Explorer, why is their mobility referenced as making them dangerous? They are no more maneuverable than the other two.

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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 30th, 2009, 3:58 pm

The reference to mobility making them dangerous is because I feel that it needs saying somewhere in the description for this line, and that's the best place to fit it IMO.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by Turuk » July 30th, 2009, 5:01 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:Whilst the Dwarves can't match the taller races in a sprint, unencumbered by heavy armour, their tremendous stamina and endurance allows them to match all but the fastest on foot. Dwarvish scouts use this to their advantage, ranging ahead of the main force and reporting back on troop movements and dispositions, or securing important objectives. Outside of battle, they are often used to run messages between Dwarvish communities. However they pay for this speed with the poorer protection provided by their lighter armour.
The bolded part seems out of place when reading the sentence, as if you take it out the sentence reads just fine, but putting it in it seems as if there should be another word or two in front of it to qualify it. For the italicized, I would change run to relay.
thespaceinvader wrote:These swift Dwarves sometimes spend long periods away from their caves, scouting and patrolling the borders. They spend this time watching for invaders, and combating the bandits and thieves who might spring up inside Dwarvish territory. They are powerful fighters in a melee, and from a distance their deftly thrown axes can rival the power and accuracy of a human bowman.
My only issue with the use of swift here is that describing them as swift in that sentence does not seem to fit with the fact that they are spending long periods away from caves. Solitary, adventurous, crazy, whatever would make more sense (not that I think they should go there), but it just doesn't seem to fit with the activities described.
thespaceinvader wrote:Dwarvish Explorers are peerless survivalists. Using only the equipment they carry, they can range for months around the forests and mountains looking for new seams of ore and deposits of minerals. Whilst their skill in a melee is less than other Dwarves, they are matchless with throwing axes, having practised this skill in hunting. Their manoeuvrability makes them a dangerous force.
For the bolded, I would change it from matchless to unmatched. Beyond that, it looks good, thought the last sentence seems a bit tacked on at the end.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by thespaceinvader » July 30th, 2009, 5:10 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:Current descriptions:
Spoiler:
Third Drafts:

Scout:
Spoiler:
Pathfinder:
Spoiler:
Explorer:
Spoiler:
I moved the civilian positions about a bit, making the Scouts the delivery guys, and the Pathfinders more like roving sheriffs or policemen. Hopefully this is an improvement.
I'd say these are getting on for finalised.
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Re: Dwarf Scout line descriptions

Post by Turuk » July 30th, 2009, 5:13 pm

Looks good to me, I like the use of hardy.
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